Article: Stop Comparing Park To Nishioka

[jimmer]

The decision to give Hardy away was a result of Gardy pushing it.  Gardy wanted speed at the position. Before Hardy was even traded, Gardy said Casilla would compete for the starting shortstop job. True, Smith shouldn't have listened, but there is something to be said for a manager who will at least take into account his manager's wishes.  Nishioka cost us very little, in baseball terms. The two decisions didn't really have to do with the other unless we connect Gardy wanting Casilla to play shortstop and us needing a 2B to replace Casilla.

[Winston Smith]

 

The decision to give Hardy away was a result of Gardy pushing it.  Gardy wanted speed at the position. Before Hardy was even traded, Gardy said Casilla would compete for the starting shortstop job. True, Smith shouldn't have listened, but there is something to be said for a manager who will at least take into account his manager's wishes.  Nishioka cost us very little, in baseball terms. The two decisions didn't really have to do with the other unless we connect Gardy wanting Casilla to play shortstop and us needing a 2B to replace Casilla.

I've seen a couple reports, true or not, that St Peter really pushed hard for the Nishioka signing because he wanted to expand the Twins "Brand" into Japan.

[jimmer]

 

I've seen a couple reports, true or not, that St Peter really pushed hard for the Nishioka signing because he wanted to expand the Twins "Brand" into Japan.

I've heard that as well.

[DocBauer]

 

My thoughts exactly.  Twins might as well trade away Vargas, Kepler and Walker for nothing.  With Sano moving to the outfield and the acquisition of Palka and possible signing of Park they have no need to keep these three marginal prospects anymore.  Lets be realistic, it was an outside chance that any of them had a shot at the lineup over the next two to three years.  Everyone knows that Plouffe will get a four or five year deal next season and Mauer will be extended another 4.  With Park becoming full-time DH soon there is no room for any of the kids to move up.     

Kepler and Walker would only be moved if it was a pretty major deal to improve the ball club. I think Kepler could be a key piece in the future. I don't really see him moving unless it's an absolute "have to".

 

Mauer is NOT going to be extended.

 

Vargas kind of depends on Mauer, and Mauer's health as well as productivity. You always need reserves and AAA fall back options as well. I have not given up on Vargas being a contributor. Perhaps even a major one.

[USAFChief]

So, it looks like all Korean players are injury-prone, since that guy with the Pirates went to the DL in September.  Just kidding.

Proof positive we shouldn't play Park in the middle infield!

[Kwak]

So many posts needing a response--too many to ID:  Compare Park with Nishioka--yes if using the context of brand extension.  It's no secret that the business world has been "globalizing" for some time--and for the Twins to adopt a strategy along this premise is to be expected.  Will Park be a huge asset?  I don't know, time will tell.  It is possible  for this to be a very sound business decision but a poor baseball decision--so measure your responses accordingly.  To the comments about DSP's fingerprints on Nishioka and now Park?  Sure, why wouldn't they be?  The Twins are a business not a horse-farm-hobby.

 

The defense of reputations concerning "whose fault" concerning Nishioka, gag me.  Smith was never a scout, and didn't choose them.  When he replaced Ryan there wasn't a cleansing of the organization--just a simple change of titles--but Smith never had the same power that Ryan held (how could he?).

 

To me the real issues are:  does this team's FO believe that the assembled core (sans Hicks as of today!) still believe that they only needed a bit better hitting, another relief pitcher, and good luck to win the World Series--or is this team still building and that the many of 2015 team need to replaced with better players in order to win the Series?  In short is average starting pitching, slightly above average position players (collectively) and a good measure of luck (the strategy of the previous decade) enough to "win it all", or is the team still transitioning to meet the a different type of team in order to "win it all"?

[Thrylos]

I'd love to see Park a. get signed and b. play for the Twins before comparisons even begin

 

As far as Nishioka goes,  I am kind of tired of that deal being presented as "one of the worst high-profile moves in recent franchise history."

 

First:  It was not that high profile

Second: Let's remember that Nishioka's leg was broken on a dirty play.  What would had happen if he did not get hurt?

Third:  Twins' total $ commitment to Nishioka?  $5.3 M signing fee and $3 a season.  Compare that to the (later) Capps/Suzuki/Hughes extensions or to the Blackburn extension, for example.  How about the Pelfrey extension or the Correia investment?  $11.6 M total investment in Nishioka.  Less than the posting fee for Park.

 

But, yeah, once bitten twice shy, but the Twins got bitten worse than with Nishioka.

[Pardon My Dinger]

 

I'm not on twitter, twitter is a toxic wasteland that provides little to no value.

 

Dave, with all due respect, I think twitter is your kind of place, my man.

[Kirbek]

I expect a lot of movement this offseason. Arcia and Vargas to name a couple.  Maybe they can net a couple of good reliever prospects for them.

[jimmer]

 

I expect a lot of movement this offseason. Arcia and Vargas to name a couple.  Maybe they can net a couple of good reliever prospects for them.

your handle rocks!

[DaveW]

 

I'd love to see Park a. get signed and b. play for the Twins before comparisons even begin

 

As far as Nishioka goes,  I am kind of tired of that deal being presented as "one of the worst high-profile moves in recent franchise history."

 

First:  It was not that high profile

Second: Let's remember that Nishioka's leg was broken on a dirty play.  What would had happen if he did not get hurt?

Third:  Twins' total $ commitment to Nishioka?  $5.3 M signing fee and $3 a season.  Compare that to the (later) Capps/Suzuki/Hughes extensions or to the Blackburn extension, for example.  How about the Pelfrey extension or the Correia investment?  $11.6 M total investment in Nishioka.  Less than the posting fee for Park.

 

But, yeah, once bitten twice shy, but the Twins got bitten worse than with Nishioka.

Agree on the most part, but I think Nishioka was going to be terrible regardless of the leg break or not, he clearly had no business playing SS in the majors and was completely lost at the plate.

 

But yeah, you are correct, his contract was small, but the real problem was shipping off Hardy (who in all fairness had a great season for Baltimore, before one bad, one good and several more bad ones)

 

Lastly: Good points on the Pelfrey, Blackburn etc signings, just proves my point about rewarding and gravitating towards mediocrity.

[DaveW]

 

I've seen a couple reports, true or not, that St Peter really pushed hard for the Nishioka signing because he wanted to expand the Twins "Brand" into Japan.

If that is true (which I don't doubt) that highlights something very, very, very wrong in the thinking of this front office.

[Dantes929]

 

 

 

To me the real issues are:  does this team's FO believe that the assembled core (sans Hicks as of today!) still believe that they only needed a bit better hitting, another relief pitcher, and good luck to win the World Series--or is this team still building and that the many of 2015 team need to replaced with better players in order to win the Series?  In short is average starting pitching, slightly above average position players (collectively) and a good measure of luck (the strategy of the previous decade) enough to "win it all", or is the team still transitioning to meet the a different type of team in order to "win it all"?

Average starting pitching, slightly above average position players and a good measure of luck.     Are you talking about the World Series Champion Royals?   Kind of by definition average at every position will get you to 81-81.    Having slightly above anything added to that will get you more wins and contention for playoffs.    There are no great teams out there.    It takes varying degrees of good luck for any team to win it all.

[Michael (ClassicMNTwins)]

 

You would make a hell of a politician nick! Arguing against a stance that literally nobody is taking!
Nobody is comparing the two (at least around these parts)

Not just Nick creating a strawman. Heard that comp within an hour of the announcement from a friend. We're still friends, nonetheless.

[Sam Morley]

i think a different and maybe better comp to the park signing is the chris colabello signing. both are older high k power hitters from independent leagues. i think the way the twins handled cola's development is a good model for park. he should report to chattanooga. if he plays well, advance quickly. he'll see the velo in AA we're concerned he hasn't in the kbo- and we won't have to suffer the expieriment on what is going to be a competitive mlb team. nishioka shouldve reported to double a as well. i don't think any of the cuban players who've hugely successful have come over and right into the show- correct me if i'm wrong. if park does go right to the twins then i think critical nishioka comps are just- not because of their hailing from asia, but because they were both granted a free pass to the show without merit- performance in an indy league is not merit enough. obviously, it didn't take a bajillion dollars to sign cola. the money involved with getting park will pressure his advancement but i don't think it's a mandate to pencil him in for opening day. we couldn't get TR to bring up the best sp in the org during a playoff chase we lost by a game- i think he's immune to pressure.

[d-mac]

The only comparison to be made: I hope to God the scouts that thought it was a good idea to go after Nishioka weren't the same ones that have been scouting Park. In fact, I hope they are no longer with the team. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

But yeah, you are correct, his contract was small, but the real problem was shipping off Hardy (who in all fairness had a great season for Baltimore, before one bad, one good and several more bad ones)

That undersells Hardy quite a bit.  

 

In the first of those seasons, the one you call "great", when just 2.5 months from full free agency, he signed a very team-friendly 3/22.5 extension

 

And here's his WAR marks for the 4 seasons following the trade (B-Ref, but basically the same at Fangraphs too):

 

4.1, 3.2, 3.9, 3.3

 

Starting 91% of this team's games through those 4 seasons.

 

In short, Hardy was an incredible asset not only that year we traded him, but for the next 3 years too (which he was also willing to sign away cheaply).

[Thrylos]

 

In short, Hardy was an incredible asset not only that year we traded him, but for the next 3 years too (which he was also willing to sign away cheaply).

 

But he was too slow.  And Gardy wanted speed.  That was the reason that the Twins cut the cord with Hardy.  Unfortunately they did not fix the root cause of that problem until last off-season...

Edited November 12, 2015 by Thrylos

[dgwills]

 

I'm not on twitter, twitter is a toxic wasteland that provides little to no value. Also I don't converse with idiots on a daily basis (try not to anyways), so again, no reasonable person would say Nishioka=Pak etc. Not sure why this article was written and posted on TwinsDaily if twinsdaily users weren't the ones saying it..

I've been bored recently and decided to participate in forums on reddit and youtube. It was terrible. There are a lot of people who refuse to accept any data or analysis that conflicts with their point of view. How many issues are absolutely black and white? If you are completely unable to see any merit it any opposing argument, what value does your opinion have?  I'm referring to those forums, not you by the way.  I had to stop. I was getting to the point that I didn't believe in representative democracy anymore.

Speaking of which, do you remember Puck? I wonder what happened to him? He would go crazy on here with hundreds of posts. He wasn't an idiot, but he was certainly unreasonable.

[DaveW]

That undersells Hardy quite a bit.

 

In the first of those seasons, the one you call "great", when just 2.5 months from full free agency, he signed a very team-friendly 3/22.5 extension

 

And here's his WAR marks for the 4 seasons following the trade (B-Ref, but basically the same at Fangraphs too):

 

4.1, 3.2, 3.9, 3.3

 

Starting 91% of this team's games through those 4 seasons.

 

In short, Hardy was an incredible asset not only that year we traded him, but for the next 3 years too (which he was also willing to sign away cheaply).

Good points, I was looking at just his offensive numbers. Either way it was a pretty bad decision, no doubt.

[Kwak]

 

I've been bored recently and decided to participate in forums on reddit and youtube. It was terrible. There are a lot of people who refuse to accept any data or analysis that conflicts with their point of view. How many issues are absolutely black and white? If you are completely unable to see any merit it any opposing argument, what value does your opinion have?  I'm referring to those forums, not you by the way.  I had to stop. I was getting to the point that I didn't believe in representative democracy anymore.

Speaking of which, do you remember Puck? I wonder what happened to him? He would go crazy on here with hundreds of posts. He wasn't an idiot, but he was certainly unreasonable.

Cheapshot!  Puck hasn't posted here for years--and most of his posts were reasoned.  I forget his name, but another  guy from Mexico (frequently sent to the penalty box)--well if you were referring to him..., that would be different.  Puck didn't suffer fools, especially those who posted to claim they were a "better fan" than others.  During this period the Twins were nearly wretched and many were downright angry about that.  I'm curious as to why you chose to "pick a scab" that had disappeared years ago.

[jimmer]

 

I've been bored recently and decided to participate in forums on reddit and youtube. It was terrible. There are a lot of people who refuse to accept any data or analysis that conflicts with their point of view. How many issues are absolutely black and white? If you are completely unable to see any merit it any opposing argument, what value does your opinion have?  I'm referring to those forums, not you by the way.  I had to stop. I was getting to the point that I didn't believe in representative democracy anymore.

Speaking of which, do you remember Puck? I wonder what happened to him? He would go crazy on here with hundreds of posts. He wasn't an idiot, but he was certainly unreasonable.

Like Kwak, not sure why you would mention a guy/gal who posted here so long ago.  Very cheap shot indeed. I've seen him/her other places, like MLB story comments and Fangraphs once in awhile (though not for awhile) and he/she seems very reasonable to me even though we've had our spirited debates. Is it possible you just disagreed with him/her and he only looked unreasonable because you and others couldn't out-debate him/her due to him being a very good debater?  Or maybe, like Kwak said, you mistook him/her for someone else?

[dgwills]

 

Like Kwak, not sure why you would mention a guy/gal who posted here so long ago.  Very cheap shot indeed. I've seen him/her other places, like MLB story comments and Fangraphs once in awhile (though not for awhile) and he/she seems very reasonable to me even though we've had our spirited debates. Is it possible you just disagreed with him/her and he only looked unreasonable because you and others couldn't out-debate him/her due to him being a very good debater?  Or maybe, like Kwak said, you mistook him/her for someone else?

I read his comments on mlb as well. Honestly I didn't mean to take a cheap shot like that, but now I see that it looks that way. Really what I meant is that he hated Ryan and the pitch to contact philosophy the Twins once had. It was very consistent, to a fault even. I probably agreed with him more often than not. Definitely couldn't beat him in a debate as his research was much better than mine. That's what I miss about it was the information he brought and the spirited debate. Considering how active Puck was it was odd that he quit so abruptly. For some reason it came to mind and I mentioned it. 

[jimmer]

 

I read his comments on mlb as well. Honestly I didn't mean to take a cheap shot like that, but now I see that it looks that way. Really what I meant is that he hated Ryan and the pitch to contact philosophy the Twins once had. It was very consistent, to a fault even. I probably agreed with him more often than not. Definitely couldn't beat him in a debate as his research was much better than mine. That's what I miss about it was the information he brought and the spirited debate. Considering how active Puck was it was odd that he quit so abruptly. For some reason it came to mind and I mentioned it. 

Last I heard he was moving.  Maybe things changed so much he doesn't have the time.  Maybe he will be back some day on some site.  He seemed pretty well liked for the most part, at least on the MLB sites. Not sure about here since I wasn't here when he was.

Edited November 13, 2015 by jimmer

[Hrbowski]

 

Hasn't Deron Johnson been the scouting director since like 2007?

Deron Johnson only has authority over North American scouting. Radcliff and Norsetter would be scouting Korea.

[Craig Arko]

Deron Johnson only has authority over North American scouting. Radcliff and Norsetter would be scouting Korea.

That's perilously close to being on topic. Watch out.

[jimmer]

 

Deron Johnson only has authority over North American scouting. Radcliff and Norsetter would be scouting Korea.

The guy I responded too said Scouting Director in his argument so I replied to that.  It's good info to know though.

[Steve J]

Would it be okay if I compared Nishi and Park if I also compared Nick Punto with Lance Berkman?

 

Or would it be equally ridiculous?