Article: The End Of The Road

[jokin]

 

Given what you read "off the record", I'm not sure most Latins that don't know him agree that it was a benign statement.

 

And I didn't say it was "benign"... I said "more benign than deserved of being called a racist". See how subtle semantic differences altered contextually can so quickly change the quality of a discussion?

Edited October 27, 2015 by jokin

[TheLeviathan]

You can hate an opinion without hating the person. Hell, its important to do that so you can work to change their mind.

 

Fiercely defining a person by one mistake or one belief is a dangerous, and more than a bit preposterous, stance.

Edited October 27, 2015 by TheLeviathan

[jokin]

 

You can hate an opinion without hating the person. Hell, its important to do that so you can work to change their mind.

Fiercely defining a person by one mistake or one belief is a dangerous, and more than a bit preposterous, stance.

 

Well stated.  Frankly, there's way too much"Burn the Witch" intolerance going on in this country all the way around. Just take a look at history to the countless atrocities against humanity that are often the end result of taking the matter of a difference of opinion- to stigmatization- to hate- to persecution.

[Mike Sixel]

Still looking for anyone in this thread saying he should not be allowed to voice his opinion, or to play baseball......I don't see it.

 

I see some people rooting for him, and saying we shouldn't think at all about what an entertainer does "off screen" at all. I see others questioning that. I see some willing to admit to conflicting feelings, and others feeling there is only some kind of bizarre world of black and white (on both sides).

 

But I don't see anyone saying he shouldn't be allowed to voice his opinion, or to have a job.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Mike Sixel

[DaveW]

Still looking for anyone in this thread saying he should not be allowed to voice his opinion, or to play baseball......I don't see it.

 

I see some people rooting for him, and saying we shouldn't think at all about what an entertainer does "off screen" at all. I see others questioning that. I see some willing to admit to conflicting feelings, and others feeling there is only some kind of bizarre world of black and white (on both sides).

 

But I don't see anyone saying he shouldn't be allowed to voice his opinion, or to have a job.

Agreed 100%

A few of the "defenders" arguments seem a little like those of the curt schilling defenders.(though to be fair what schilling has been doing is much more inflammatory and dangerous IMO)

[DaveW]

Also fwiw: I think a lot of people's issue with hunter isn't that he made the comments, but that he continually doubled down on them (then basically crapped all over the media when they tried to ask him about it)

 

America and especially sports in America love to forgive folks, if he came out and said something along the lines of "these are beliefs I grew up with etc, but I have heard from others that it might be offensive, I am working to learn more about the issues" people would by and large forget about it.

[bombo]

Follow the US courts much?

 

No certainly try not to that's for sure.

[bombo]

Just 3 years ago, 47% of the voters in Minnesota agreed with Hunter and voted against same-sex marriage.  I hope we don't classify 47% of our population as horrible people.  

 

Hunter was a great Twins player, I'm glad he was able to finish his career here.  Look forward to seeing him go into the Twins HOF.

 

Excellent post!

[bombo]

Also fwiw: I think a lot of people's issue with hunter isn't that he made the comments, but that he continually doubled down on them (then basically crapped all over the media when they tried to ask him about it)

America and especially sports in America love to forgive folks, if he came out and said something along the lines of "these are beliefs I grew up with etc, but I have heard from others that it might be offensive, I am working to learn more about the issues" people would by and large forget about it.

 

If you feel strongly about something, you obviously are going to double down on it. Newflash: athletes are going to say some things you don't agree with just like the rest of the general public. Given the platform athletes have, if you're scared of what an answer may be, don't ask the question.

[jimmer]

 

If you feel strongly about something, you obviously are going to double down on it. Newflash: athletes are going to say some things you don't agree with just like the rest of the general public. Given the platform athletes have, if you're scared of what an answer may be, don't ask the question.

Hunter came out and used his star power to endorse a candidate in part because the candidate was going to fight gay marriage.  That wasn't a case of anyone asking Hunter his thoughts on a subject, that was him going out of his way to endorse a candidate that would attempt to suppress the rights of a whole group of people.  So we can stop with the whole, 'if you don't want an answer don't ask the question' defense, because it hold zero water. 

 

People have a right to their opinion but when a person uses his influence to try and suppress the rights of people who don't agree with his point of view, that is something else.  That isn't just having an opinion, it's actively trying to push his opinions onto others.

Edited October 27, 2015 by jimmer

[DaveW]

If you feel strongly about something, you obviously are going to double down on it. Newflash: athletes are going to say some things you don't agree with just like the rest of the general public. Given the platform athletes have, if you're scared of what an answer may be, don't ask the question.

Note:

Nobody asked hunter the question until he had already come out and stated his stance numerous times without provocation.

[bombo]

Hunter came out and used his star power to endorse a candidate in part because the candidate was going to fight gay marriage.  That wasn't a case of anyone asking Hunter his thoughts on a subject, that was him going out of his way to endorse a candidate that would attempt to suppress the rights of a whole group of people.  So we can stop with the whole, 'if you don't want an answer don't ask the question' defense, because it hold zero water. 

 

People have a right to their opinion but when a person uses his influence to try and suppress the rights of people who don't agree with his point of view, that is something else.  That isn't just having an opinion, it's actively trying to push his opinions onto others.

 

I was referring to when he "doubled down" on it by answering the question in the press conference. That would have been the act of doubling down on it. He has every right to endorse a candidate if he so chooses, just like you have every right to vote for the candidate you want and go out and publicly campaign for him/her.

[bombo]

Note:

Nobody asked hunter the question until he had already come out and stated his stance numerous times without provocation.

 

47% of voters in MN in 2012 agreed with him. It's not like what he said is something so completely outlandish that 95% of the state of MN disagrees with him.

[jimmer]

 

I was referring to when he "doubled down" on it by answering the question in the press conference. That would have been the act of doubling down on it. He has every right to endorse a candidate if he so chooses, just like you have every right to vote for the candidate you want and go out and publicly campaign for him/her.

There was nothing wrong with Bernadino asked.  He asked if Hunter thought his very public views may have affected his FA process.  For example, would the Giants have even thought about getting him knowing the kind of backlash the fans might have given? It's a legitimate baseball question.  

 

And he used his celebrity to try and suppress the rights of a whole group of people. I have no such celebrity and if I did, I wouldn't use it to push a candidate that wants to discriminate against a whole group of people.

Edited October 27, 2015 by jimmer

[jimmer]

 

47% of voters in MN in 2012 agreed with him. It's not like what he said is something so completely outlandish that 95% of the state of MN disagrees with him.

I wonder what % of voters in MN back in the day agreed with people who thought segregation and slavery were a good idea too?  Discrimination is discrimination.

[bombo]

I wonder what % of voters in MN back in the day agreed with people who thought segregation and slavery were a good idea too?  Discrimination is discrimination.

 

Are you trying to say that you think the percentage in 2015 would be drastically different?

[bombo]

There was nothing wrong with Bernadino asked.  He asked if Hunter thought his very public views may have affected his FA process.  For example, would the Giants have even thought about getting him knowing the kind of backlash the fans might have given? It's a legitimate baseball question.  

 

And he used his celebrity to try and suppress the rights of a whole group of people. I have no such celebrity and if I did, I wouldn't use it to push a candidate that wants to discriminate against a whole group of people.

 

Mike's question was a bit ridiculous because other than SF, there's no other city ever his views would've affected his free agent process.

[jimmer]

 

Are you trying to say that you think the percentage in 2015 would be drastically different?

I'm saying back when these ideas were hugely popular, would 47% of MN agreeing with it make it okay? 

 

Did you know that until 1967, 16 states still had it on the books that inter-racial marriages were illegal? Alabama didn't take it officially off the books until 2000 and that over half a million voted against Alabama's repeal of the anti-miscegenation laws?

Edited October 27, 2015 by jimmer

[jimmer]

 

Mike's question was a bit ridiculous because other than SF, there's no other city ever his views would've affected his free agent process.

Yeah, I doubt that's true. Seattle for one. Either way, it was a legitimate question.

[bombo]

I'm saying back when these ideas were hugely popular, would 47% of MN agreeing with it make it okay? 

 

Did you know that until 1967, 16 states still had it on the books that inter-racial marriages were illegal? Alabama didn't take it officially off the books until 2000 and that over half a million voted against Alabama's repeal of the anti-miscegenation laws?

 

Much to your surprise I did!

[bombo]

Yeah, I doubt that's true. Seattle for one. Either way, it was a legitimate question.

 

Not a chance it played any role with Seattle.

[jimmer]

 

Not a chance it played any role with Seattle.

I am glad you are so sure, considering how liberal that whole city is (like Portland and San Francisco). Three peas in a pod those cities are.  

 

 

Edited October 27, 2015 by jimmer

[bombo]

The bottom line is that if somebody is naive enough to base their opinion on what an athlete, actor, entertainer, etc. says about a certain topic, they probably have bigger issues.

[ken]

 

But I don't see anyone saying he shouldn't be allowed to voice his opinion, or to have a job.

We are from Minnesota, we wouldn't actually say what we believed. Just be critical of anyone who does say what they believe. 

[ken]

 

I wonder what % of voters in MN back in the day agreed with people who thought segregation and slavery were a good idea too?  Discrimination is discrimination.

Agree, doesn't matter if it's 47% or 95%, it would be wrong.  But since I'm not up for sainthood anytime soon, it's seems like after a very good career and the day after announcing his retirement, this probably isn't what this board should be about.

 

And Bernadino had every right to ask the question the first time, but after the second and third time, you are kind of being a P_ _ _ _.

[Craig Arko]

Lotta hate in this thread. People would be well served looking in the mirror before jumping all over somebody else.

[TheLeviathan]

Lotta hate in this thread. People would be well served looking in the mirror before jumping all over somebody else.

Good thing one belief or opinion being stupid isn't a bar we use here at TD to dismiss people or we'd all have no one to talk to.

[DaveW]

Lotta hate in this thread. People would be well served looking in the mirror before jumping all over somebody else.

the minute I appear in a pair political ad for someone I will look in the mirror, until then, this isn't even an apples and oranges comparison, it's a Boones farm and Orange Juice comparison.

 

Also I haven't seen any "hate" fwiw, I have been hunters biggest critic in this regard but I have repeatedly said I loved what he did as a player for this team (top ten franchise history, team HOF etc)

 

I bet if this was Chuck knoblauch though people wouldn't be as quick to defend...(all he did was demand a trade from the twins at the time) all the other stuff (Terrible stuff no doubt) came out long after the twins fans had thrown stuff at him on the field etc

Edited October 28, 2015 by DaveW

[glunn]

Moderator note - please tone down the personal attacks and bickering.  I just deleted a bunch of posts and we will start handing out infraction points if the bickering continues.

 

I appreciate the strong convictions on both sides of this, but the integrity of our forums depends on keeping the discussion RESPECTFUL.