Article: The End Of The Road

[bombo]

Would you root for Hernandez now? If not, welcome to the club of people that will draw a line.

That's never going to be a decision that has to be made because I don't see the day where it'll ever be known publicly that an athlete murdered multiple people and is still playing.

 

This whole thing is just ridiculous. Take a step back and realize that you're trying to compare a murderer to somebody who spoke out on a topic that you care deeply about and has a different opinion than you. That's crazy!

[Mike Sixel]

I'm not comparing them at all......I'm stating that there is a line that some athletes cross that makes me not want to root for them. NO PLACE did I compare Torii to Hernandez, NO PLACE.

 

At least on NFL player killed someone in a car accident where he may or may not have been drinking, would you root for him? Several (many?) have beat women on multiple occasions, you ok rooting for them?

[jimmer]

 

I'm not comparing them at all......I'm stating that there is a line that some athletes cross that makes me not want to root for them. NO PLACE did I compare Torii to Hernandez, NO PLACE.

At least on NFL player killed someone in a car accident where he may or may not have been drinking, would you root for him? Several (many?) have beat women on multiple occasions, you ok rooting for them?

apparently murder is the line, child abuse isn't :-)

[Platoon]

I think that in areas of personal beliefs, one might wish that people would be able to articulate a position respectfully, with a sense that all sides are seeking what is best for all. If that is what you mean by hoping Torii becomes more enlightened, I'm with you on that.

One more thing.

How on earth does Torii's retirement speak to the Front Office and their handling, or mishandling of decision making and roster management?

[Let me say this as respectfully as I can...] These are the sorts of comments on TD that I appreciate the least.

When the article is Torii's retirement, and a comment is aimed at how bad the FO is. Sorta gets old my friends.

To quote Rodney King; "Can't we all just get along?"

I think the article referenced Hunter's decision as saving the Twins from themselves. But who am I to quibble, I withdraw the comment in an attempt to promote harmony and good will!

[DaveW]

 

apparently murder is the line, child abuse isn't :-)

http://southparkstudios.mtvnimages.com/images/shows/southpark/vertical_video/season_16/1609/south-park-1609-raising-the-bar-FDD-clip10.jpg

[bombo]

apparently murder is the line, child abuse isn't :-)

 

It's odd that if it was child abuse, he still has joint custody.

[jimmer]

 

It's odd that if it was child abuse, he still has joint custody.

if you want to believe that means it wasn't child abuse, go for it.

Edited October 27, 2015 by jimmer

[bombo]

It's very odd how because certain people have a disagreement with Hunter's take on something as controversial as gay marriage they have to turn this post into bringing up other athletes who have actually been charged with something.

 

Torii Hunter, guilty of having a different opinion than you and saying things you disagree with. What a terrible individual! Give me a break!

[bombo]

I'm not comparing them at all......I'm stating that there is a line that some athletes cross that makes me not want to root for them. NO PLACE did I compare Torii to Hernandez, NO PLACE.At least on NFL player killed someone in a car accident where he may or may not have been drinking, would you root for him? Several (many?) have beat women on multiple occasions, you ok rooting for them?

 

We get that and your line is when an athlete says something or has beliefs that you don't agree with. It must be extremely hard to be a sports fan today.

[Mike Sixel]

We get that and your line is when an athlete says something or has beliefs that you don't agree with. It must be extremely hard to be a sports fan today.

Not actually my line, it is more complex than that. If it was 1 time, or 1 issue, I am much more tolerant of intolerance......

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

He passed up a chance to play for the Royals, who went to the big dance last year and are back there now, opting instead for a blatantly rebuilding team coming off four straight 90-loss seasons, almost solely out of loyalty and deep-rooted affinity.

"Almost solely"?  I am almost certain Torii came back to the Twins in part for the platitudes and tributes, although I can't really blame him for that.  It was a unique opportunity.

 

He was a good player, a respected veteran, but retiring for these Royals and overshadowed by their pennant aspirations, I am not sure there would have even been a good opportunity for polite applause upon his farewell.  He certainly wouldn't have gotten standing ovations, curtain calls, career retrospectives on the jumbotron (which started on opening day, IIRC), carrying out the lineup card on the last day of the season, etc. for any other club.  And of course the full power to claim a 2016 roster spot again if he wanted it.

 

Again, not that I blame him, but I'm not seeing his return to Minnesota as "solely" altruistic.  Even him claiming the title of undisputed clubhouse leader, while beneficial for his Twins teammates, was probably a nice ego stroke for Hunter too after often playing under a group leadership dynamic in LA, Detroit, and even his first go-around with the Twins.

Edited October 27, 2015 by spycake

[jimmer]

 

"Almost solely"?  I am almost certain Torii came back to the Twins in part for the platitudes and tributes, although I can't really blame him for that.  It was a unique opportunity.

 

He was a good player, a respected veteran, but retiring for these Royals and overshadowed by their pennant aspirations, I am not sure there would have even been a good opportunity for polite applause upon his farewell.  He certainly wouldn't have gotten standing ovations, curtain calls, career retrospectives on the jumbotron (which started on opening day, IIRC), carrying out the lineup card on the last day of the season, etc. for any other club.  And of course the full power to claim a 2016 roster spot again if he wanted it.

 

Again, not that I blame him, but I'm not seeing his return to Minnesota as "solely" altruistic.  Even him claiming the title of undisputed clubhouse leader, while beneficial for his Twins teammates, was probably a nice ego stroke for Hunter too after often playing second/third banana in LA and Detroit (and probably even after his first go-around with the Twins, which often had more of a group leadership dynamic).

yeah, almost solely was an interesting thing to say.  I'm sure, along with the things you mentioned, there was the 10.5M he was given.  Doubt KC offered that.

[Steve Lein]

 

Great player on the field, great teammate on the field, disappointing human off the field with his countless bigoted acts.

 

Bigot is a term I don't think fits 100% correctly, and frankly goes right back to the person saying it by the very definition of it. (I'm not calling you one DaveW, it's just my opinion on the matter, which as I say, technically makes me one in reference to your own opinion. And this fact is also my reason as to why the term is an incorrect fit - we're not 'bigots').

 

People need to get over his personal opinions. Just like actors or singers, it really doesn't matter what their personal opinions are. There's many out there that agree with Hunter's view of gay marriage.

 

It's as simple as that for me as well. Do I agree with Hunter's view on this or some other things? Hell no. How much do I care at this point? Pretty much the same amount that Nick outlines here.

 

I learned very early that the player and the person are not the same, and it was in the best interest of myself to separate them. I will tell that to my children as well, and maybe then the guys they end up looking up to will fit both the on-field and off-field traits. There are far more guys like that in sports, believe it or not, and I will guide them towards those guys.

 

That said, I would have no problem with my children looking up to a guy like Torii Hunter. They'll see the smile and fun he's having playing the game of baseball, and want to grow up doing that too.

 

 

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

yeah, almost solely was an interesting thing to say.  I'm sure, along with the things you mentioned, there was the 10.5M he was given.  Doubt KC offered that.

KC gave Rios $11 mil (plus a 2016 mutual option), so I don't think Torii's salary was beyond their consideration.

[Nick Nelson]

 

"Almost solely"?  I am almost certain Torii came back to the Twins in part for the platitudes and tributes, although I can't really blame him for that.  It was a unique opportunity.

That doesn't exactly clash with my phrasing. I never said that the loyalty and affinity were a one-way street. 

[John Bonnes]

I've been wrestling with the homophobia thing and the attention paid to it.

 

My 96-year-old grandma is a racist, or at least has said racist things to me. I don't plan to bring that up in her eulogy. And I still think she's a great person.

 

I think you can find the homophobic sentiment terrible (and I do), without wholly condemning the person who made the comments. That comes from personal experience. Almost anyone who is my age (48) was probably homophobic. I know I was in 1985, when I was 18. I know my parents went through something similar.

 

Thirty years ago, homophobia was the default stance taken by society. I imagine that if you were raised in Arkansas, as an African-American man, and immersed in a locker room culture for the last 25 years, that default stance is still pretty ingrained.

 

If I was to condemn everyone my age who ever expressed a homophobic attitude, I would condemn myself, most of my peers, my role models, my brother, my parents, etc.  And I can tell you that most of the ones I remember have changed their tune upon further reflection. If I would have let those attitudes define them, I would've missed out on some great people and would not have experienced the happiness that they felt from letting go of a position that was based in fear and ignorance and difference.

 

I think this is hard - maybe impossible - for anyone under the age of 35 to understand. For them, the default stance is exactly the opposite. I don't think we've seen an issue like that for a while. A few years ago, talking to a grassroots organizer, he explained the reason that anti gay marriage amendments were being created. It was because something like 80% of those 50 and older were anti gay marriage and 80% of those 40 and under were pro. We went through a seismic shift in attitude over a 10 year period from one generation to the other.

 

I cut everyone towards the higher end of that shift a lot of slack on the subject. It may just be a journey that they haven't taken yet. And I try to cut some slack to the younger folks who can't understand what kind of monsters could have such terrible views. They might find themselves needing to face a similar journey on a different topic that might make them more understanding.

 

So, no, I don't think Hunter's views on homosexuality should define him. I think it's fine to note them, audibly reject them and then move on to the other 99.8% of the person. And it's OK to still admire that person for that other 99.8%.

[DaveW]

I've been wrestling with the homophobia thing and the attention paid to it.

 

My 96-year-old grandma is a racist, or at least has said racist things to me. I don't plan to bring that up in her eulogy. And I still think she's a great person.

 

I think you can find the homophobic sentiment terrible (and I do), without wholly condemning the person who made the comments. That comes from personal experience. Almost anyone who is my age (48) was probably homophobic. I know I was in 1985, when I was 18. I know my parents went through something similar.

 

Thirty years ago, homophobia was the default stance taken by society. I imagine that if you were raised in Arkansas, as an African-American man, and immersed in a locker room culture for the last 25 years, that default stance is still pretty ingrained.

 

If I was to condemn everyone my age who ever expressed a homophobic attitude, I would condemn myself, most of my peers, my role models, my brother, my parents, etc. And I can tell you that most of the ones I remember have changed their tune upon further reflection. If I would have let those attitudes define them, I would've missed out on some great people and would not have experienced the happiness that they felt from letting go of a position that was based in fear and ignorance and difference.

 

I think this is hard - maybe impossible - for anyone under the age of 35 to understand. For them, the default stance is exactly the opposite. I don't think we've seen an issue like that for a while. A few years ago, talking to a grassroots organizer, he explained the reason that anti gay marriage amendments were being created. It was because something like 80% of those 50 and older were anti gay marriage and 80% of those 40 and under were pro. We went through a seismic shift in attitude over a 10 year period from one generation to the other.

 

I cut everyone towards the higher end of that shift a lot of slack on the subject. It may just be a journey that they haven't taken yet. And I try to cut some slack to the younger folks who can't understand what kind of monsters could have such terrible views. They might find themselves needing to face a similar journey on a different topic that might make them more understanding.

 

So, no, I don't think Hunter's views on homosexuality should define him. I think it's fine to note them, audibly reject them and then move on to the other 99.8% of the person. And it's OK to still admire that person for that other 99.8%.

What % of him is the racism towards Dominican and Latin players though?

 

Sorry I'm not a fan of excuses for anyone under the age of 85 to be having and saying these things, not in 2015 certainly.

 

Hopefully hunter can change, it certainly is possible if he will have even a slightly open mind. But ultimately that's on him, doesn't effect my life. I learned long ago that athletes aren't the best people to "look up" to.

 

I have some extended relatives who have these outdated and disgusting views as well, I choose to simply not keep in touch with them whenever possible. People shouldn't give passes to this type of behavior due to "oh well this USED to be the norm" times change, time to grow up.

Edited October 27, 2015 by DaveW

[DaveW]

It's odd that if it was child abuse, he still has joint custody.

Follow the US courts much?

[USAFChief]

Great post John.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

That doesn't exactly clash with my phrasing. I never said that the loyalty and affinity were a one-way street. 

True.  I guess the "loyalty and affinity" seem a lot less "cool" when it's coming from the desperate rebuilding team rather than the fiery veteran player.  

[jimmer]

 

KC gave Rios $11 mil (plus a 2016 mutual option), so I don't think Torii's salary was beyond their consideration.

Rios is a LOT younger.  They likely bet on him bouncing back. They reportedly had a bid 2M less than what Hunter signed for.

 

 

http://blogs.twincities.com/twins/2015/04/13/twinsights-how-close-did-royals-come-to-landing-torii-hunter/

 

Edited October 27, 2015 by jimmer

[Otto von Ballpark]

Hunter did use his profile to campaign on the issue, so I'm not quite sure it's the same as simply overlooking your grandma's opinion on it.

 

If I were Torii's teammate, his campaign would probably compel me to make sure I spoke out on the issue myself, not to antagonize Torii but to be absolutely clear I didn't appear complicit in this attitude from my co-worker/workplace/industry.  I think it's also fair to take that stance as a fan too.

[jokin]

 

What % of him is the racism towards Dominican and Latin players though?

 

 

"Dominican" and "Latin" are not races, they're nationalities and ethnicities. The players in question that Torii disparaged were members of the same race as Torii- can one really be "racist" against members of his own race? The term you were looking for was probably "anti-cultural bias" not racism. Torii was very clumsily trying to explain why the cultural experience for American blacks as a minority group is "authentic"... versus the experience of non-American blacks who come from a culture where their race is in the majority.

Edited October 27, 2015 by jokin

[DaveW]

"Dominican" and "Latin" are not races, they're ethnicities. The players in question that Torii disparaged were members of the same race as Torii- can one really be "racist" against members of his own race? The term you were looking for was probably "anti-cultural bias" not racism. Torii was very clumsily trying to explain why the cultural experience for American blacks as a minority group is "authentic"... versus the experience of non-American blacks who come from a culture where their race is in the majority.

You know the point I was trying to make.

[Mike Sixel]

Great post, John. My grandmother was a horrible racist, and that did effect my relationship with her. I have plenty of ex friends that are racists. I don't see why I should just ignore Torii using his profile to campaign against a group of people, and to disparage certain members of his race.

 

I'm 51, I wonder how Torii feels about older people that hate black people, does he just excuse them as being old and it doesn't really matter because supposedly less young people feel that way? I doubt it.

 

No one (I don't think) is saying that his views on this fully define him as a person. What I can say I am saying is, that his position as an entertainer doesn't fully define him as a person. What many sports fans seem to think, imo, is that it does. That we should blindly root for players on "our" team, no matter what they think or do. I don't share that belief, and I don't understand those that do hold that belief.

[jokin]

 

You know the point I was trying to make.

 

It's kind-of important when you use one of the most politically charged words in American culture- like "racist", to use them with precision (or else their meaning becomes diluted). It's the same sort of semantic inelegance that Torii demonstrated when trying to explain why his experience as an African-American was different ("more valid") than that of Caribbean Latins of the same race. Quite simply, his behavior was more benign than being worthy of being called a "racist", and also definitionally inaccurate.

Edited October 27, 2015 by jokin

[Mike Sixel]

It's kind-of important when you use one of the most politically charged words in American culture- like "racist", to use them with precision (or else their meaning becomes diluted). It's the same sort of semantic inelegance that Torii demonstrated when trying to explain why his experience as an African-American was different than that of Caribbean Latins of the same race. Quite simply, his behavior was more benign than being worthy of being called a "racist", and also definitionally inaccurate.

Given what you read "off the record", I'm not sure most Latins that don't know him agree that it was a benign statement.

[ken]

Just 3 years ago, 47% of the voters in Minnesota agreed with Hunter and voted against same-sex marriage.  I hope we don't classify 47% of our population as horrible people.  

 

Hunter was a great Twins player, I'm glad he was able to finish his career here.  Look forward to seeing him go into the Twins HOF. 

[jokin]

 

Given what you read "off the record", I'm not sure most Latins that don't know him agree that it was a benign statement.

 

Lots of reasons why lots of people choose to take offense at things. The language about "imposters" was indeed pretty crude stuff- and there's probably an economic argument to be made that more speculative American black baseball players have priced themselves out of the market when there is an easy alternative in that you can sign maybe up to a dozen young Latin players at around the same price as one black ball player in the first 10-15 rounds in the draft ,and certainly when salaries start to quickly accelerate at the major league level .  Both of these feelings are probably still a pretty widespread sentiment among the African American community, especially when phrased with less-charged rhetoric than Torii's verbose rant.

 

With regards to "authenticity", if you recall, in 2007-8, there was a strong movement in that same community that Obama wasn't an authentic-enough African American to be deserving of the mantle- I don't recall cries of racism being thrown around during that dust-up. 

 

FWIW, I had a chance to coach an inner-city high school team for 10 years. I learned through multiple occasions and testimony that the resentment against the African immigrant and refugee communities is widespread among the African American community.

Edited October 27, 2015 by jokin

[Boom Boom]

In my mind there is a difference between a horrible person and a jackass.

 

It is Torii's right to believe what he wants. If he does so publically, I have the right to dislike him for it.

 

I'm not accusing Torii Hunter of being a scumbag and I would never encourage others to mail dead animals to him. However, I also did not participate in standing ovations for him.

 

And then there's Mark Kotsay. Smooth move, Torii.