Article: The End Of The Road

[Nick Nelson]

When Torii Hunter made his major-league debut for the Twins in August of 1997, Flip Saunders had recently completed his first full season as head coach of the Timberwolves, in which he led the team to its first ever playoff berth.

 

That period marked the start of two careers in sport that would transform each man into a local legend. They followed their own distinct paths, branching out in different directions, but ultimately converged back where it all started so many years ago.

 

As it turns out, that is also where both roads would come to an end.When Hunter was donning an MLB jersey for the first time and the Wolves were just getting started on a lengthy run of first-round playoff exits, I was an 11-year-old boy in his formative years as a sports fan.

 

I became a Wolves fan while Flip was leading the team to (albeit fruitless) postseason berths year after year. I became a far more hardcore Twins fan while Hunter was entrenched as the one enduring constant on four division-winning clubs from 2002 through 2006.

 

Needless to say, the last couple days have struck me with a lot of emotions. On Monday, Hunter announced that he has decided to end his career as a player, one day after Saunders' career as a coach and executive was tragically cut short.

 

I have always been a huge Flip Saunders fan. He did big things for a Timberwolves franchise that lacked an identity until he (and a kid named Kevin Garnett) gave them one. And now, after returning, he has created the foundation for what could very well be an even better run.

 

But what I truly admired was the fact that Flip was, at his core, a total rube.

 

I'll never forget listening to sports talk radio while riding in the passenger seat of my dad's car and hearing some riled up host ranting on the Wolves, only to be refuted by an animated Saunders who had (of course) been listening, and called in to defend himself. It was amazing, and it was not an infrequent occurrence.

 

That part of Flip never really went away. Up until the last few months, he was still doing weekly spots with Dan Barreiro; the "Friday Funkadelic" was my favorite thing on the radio, by far. Here you had the general manager AND head coach of the local pro basketball team, yukking it up on drivetime radio, sometimes deflecting Barreiro's probes for inside tidbits with a chuckle, and sometimes slyly dropping illuminating insights.

 

Flip's death on Sunday was a profoundly sad event, and one that hit me hard personally as I look ahead to my 30th birthday on Thursday. He was only 60, and that sure doesn't seem as old to me as it once did now that I'm checking in at the halfway point.

 

Hunter's retirement on Monday, conversely, brought out a vastly different set of feelings. It isn't a cause for somber reflection, but rather a cause for celebration. His career was exceptional, and he ended it on his terms. He probably did the Twins a favor, robbing them of the temptation to try and squeeze one more year out of a popular yet declining veteran, at a point where he really isn't a logical fit.

 

Hunter's return this year, and this week's retirement announcement, stir up a strong cocktail of mixed emotions. On the one hand, I have always loved him as a player. He was an incredibly consistent force in center field as Minnesota ushered in a new era of competitive baseball. Every year, Hunter hit around 25 home runs and posted an OPS around .800. Every year he added another Gold Glove to his shelf, establishing himself as an all-time Web Gem king.

 

And while I wasn't exactly enamored with his return this season from a purely baseball standpoint, there's just no denying that his decision to finish his career here is pretty damn cool. I mean, think about it. Through 18 big-league seasons and eight postseason appearances, Hunter has NEVER been to the World Series. He passed up a chance to play for the Royals, who went to the big dance last year and are back there now, opting instead for a blatantly rebuilding team coming off four straight 90-loss seasons, almost solely out of loyalty and deep-rooted affinity.

 

But this is where the internal conflict arises. Because on the other hand, Hunter has said some things off the field that have really rubbed me the wrong way. And while I'm very much accustomed to setting aside the personal dispositions and quirks of professional athletes in order to enjoy them as performers, some of his outspoken remarks regarding gay marriage and homosexuality in general have been off-putting to me on a rather visceral level.

 

But as the passing of Saunders on Sunday reminds, life is short. Too short for grudges, and for harping on negative traits. I may disagree with Hunter vehemently on a matter that I find important, but I don't presume his viewpoints stem from hatred – more likely a rigidly engrained belief system.

 

Last Friday, when he interviewed Terry Ryan for the Offseason Handbook, our Parker Hageman asked the general manager about Hunter's impact, and the response was unsurprisingly filled with praise.

 

As a follow-up, Parker asked whether Ryan would seek to replace Hunter's veteran presence in the event that the outfielder chose to retire.

 

The GM fumbled for words a bit. "Well, we'll see what happens, I don't know," he said tersely. "Let's see what happens before we worry about replacing him."

 

Ryan could not have been surprised by Monday's announcement – by all accounts, Hunter's leaning was no secret – but still it was a difficult reality to come to grips with, and not just for the GM, as this tweet from La Velle E. Neal alludes:

 

 

The positive sentiment toward Hunter stretches well beyond the Twins' front office, extending to his teammates, his opponents, his coaches and the media members that cover him. He smiles infectiously, embraces a leadership role, and played the game awfully hard for nearly two decades.

 

Hunter styled himself after Kirby Puckett, and he didn't come all that short of matching Puck's transcendent presence on the baseball field.

 

But like Puckett, Hunter is not without flaws. My disagreeing with his views isn't going to change them. I hope that he becomes more enlightened over time in that regard but either way I'm not going to dwell on his opinion.

 

Instead, I'll appreciate the spectacular things he did on the field, and the allegiance he ultimately showed to the Twins organization, while looking forward to seeing his next move in the game.

 

Where one road ends, another begins.

 

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[HitInAPinch]

I'm going to miss Torii Hunter.  And I think the Twins will, too.  Yes, the years have been catching up on him, but think about this: 

 

Who else on the current roster will...

Provide 22 HR's?  Tied for 2nd on the team

Provide clutch hitting?

Provide vocal leadership?

Provide a real face of the franchise?

 

I'm of the belief the Twins can use a guy like Torii Hunter next year.  Who will be that guy?

[Platoon]

I was never sure which Hunter was the real one. The one with the views I don't agree with and the accompanying attitude displayed to Bernadino, or the smiley friendly one displayed on the field? Likely a composite of the two. Whichever, it's mostly irrelevant as he is not paid to be my ideal male sports personality, he was paid to play baseball. Which I think he can still do to some degree. So did he retire because it was time, because he thought it best to go out on the higher note? Or because the Twins would not guarantee him a full time gig? If the Twins truly wanted him back with a regular lineup spot, it speaks reams about FO decision making, and the likelihood that any significant improvement is forthcoming. That said, while it can be argued pro or con that Hunter helped the Twins on the field in 2015, his biggest contribution will likely be his retirement, saving the Twins from yet another mind boggling roster decision!

[KGB]

On the field, I think sometimes we forget that we are not dealing with a fantasy team and things like leadership and a winning attitude matter.  Not all winning is either stat based or luck.  I think Hunter’s contributions to the team is often undervalued by some, but not by the team or organization

Off the field, unfortunately a large number of people agree with Hunter’s beliefs.  Probably some in the clubhouse, but they are just not vocal about the beliefs.  But with Hunter, you knew where he stood and you could agree or disagree.

[Mike Sixel]

He is a great example of why I root for teams, not individuals, any more in sports. Flip, otoh, is why you keep rooting for individuals in life.

[DaveW]

Great player on the field, great teammate on the field, disappointing human off the field with his countless bigoted acts.

[bombo]

People need to get over his personal opinions. Just like actors or singers, it really doesn't matter what their personal opinions are. There's many out there that agree with Hunter's view of gay marriage. If anything I applaud him for speaking honestly on the topic only AFTER a member of the media asked him specifically about it.

[Mike Sixel]

People need to get over his personal opinions. Just like actors or singers, it really doesn't matter what their personal opinions are. There's many out there that agree with Hunter's view of gay marriage. If anything I applaud him for speaking honestly on the topic only AFTER a member of the media asked him specifically about it.

Why do I NEED to get over it? Why can't I root for him to play well for the Twins, but not like him as a person (and, let's not pretend he didn't also make racist comments about people who "weren't really black"). Please don't tell me how to feel. and no, it wasn't only AFTER a question, he appeared in political ads supporting politicians who shared his belief.

[DaveW]

 

People need to get over his personal opinions. Just like actors or singers, it really doesn't matter what their personal opinions are. There's many out there that agree with Hunter's view of gay marriage. If anything I applaud him for speaking honestly on the topic only AFTER a member of the media asked him specifically about it.

Uh, make no mistake about it, it's bigoted plane and simple, and these aren't just "personal views", Hunter went on paid political ads talking about a candidate who among other things vehemently opposed Gay marriage, now one can disagree or agree with him, but since he has very publicly said these thing on multiple platforms it is more than fair for people to bring it up.

 

Deadspin nailed my feelings on it perfectly: http://deadspin.com/torii-hunter-all-time-near-great-centerfielder-retire-1738832310

 

 

Of course, there’s the bigoted side of Hunter to consider as well. Three years ago Hunter hid behind Christianity to say, “It’s not right” to have a gay teammate in the locker room. Last year, Hunter recorded an anti-gay radio ad for an anti-gay Arkansas gubernatorial candidate, saying, “Asa is committed to the principles we hold dear, like a strong faith in God, equal justice for all, and keeping marriage between one man and one woman.” When a reporter had the temerity to ask Hunter about his beliefs, Hunter called him a “prick” four times. Hunter said black Latin American baseball players are “imposters.”


More likely than not, though, he won’t, and we’ll be left to ponder for the umpteenth time how to reconcile the fact that some of our favorite athletes are some of our least favorite people. In that way, Hunter is little different than the loving grandpa who forwards racist chain e-mails or the childhood friend who says uncomfortable things during once-a-year reunions. Great people do and say bad things, and awful people do and say good things. Athletes are no different.

Torii Hunter was a great baseball player with a seemingly good heart who actively hurt people. It’s a complicated legacy: worse than some and better than many.

 

 

I liked Hunter as a player, but if I had kids I wouldn't want them looking up to him as a role model, does that make sense?

 

 

Edited October 27, 2015 by DaveW

[Vanimal46]

 

Uh, make no mistake about it, it's bigoted plane and simple, and these aren't just "personal views", Hunter went on paid political ads talking about a candidate who among other things vehemently opposed Gay marriage, now one can disagree or agree with him, but since he has very publicly said these thing on multiple platforms it is more than fair for people to bring it up.

 

Deadspin nailed my feelings on it perfectly: http://deadspin.com/torii-hunter-all-time-near-great-centerfielder-retire-1738832310

 

I was just about to link the Deadspin article that outlines this. I'll link this one too in regards to Mike's response.... 

 

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2010/03/10/torii-hunter-black-dominican-players-are-imposters/

 

 

[bombo]

All you have to do is take a look at a small sample of the outpouring of support he's received amongst his peers, even those that weren't his former teammates to understand how great of a guy he was. If you're opposed to gay marriage that doesn't automatically make you a terrible person.

[Wyorev]

I think that in areas of personal beliefs, one might wish that people would be able to articulate a position respectfully, with a sense that all sides are seeking what is best for all. If that is what you mean by hoping Torii becomes more enlightened, I'm with you on that.

One more thing.

How on earth does Torii's retirement speak to the Front Office and their handling, or mishandling of decision making and roster management?

[Let me say this as respectfully as I can...] These are the sorts of comments on TD that I appreciate the least.

When the article is Torii's retirement, and a comment is aimed at how bad the FO is. Sorta gets old my friends.

To quote Rodney King; "Can't we all just get along?"

[JumpToTheMoon]

"He probably did the Twins a favor, robbing them of the temptation to try and squeeze one more year out of a popular yet declining veteran, at a point where he really isn't a logical fit."  This was exactly my thought when I heard the news.  More than likely, there will be OF/DH players that can be had in free agency for much better value and less money than resigning Hunter would have likely required.

 

With that said, all the best to Torii.

[DaveW]

 

"He probably did the Twins a favor, robbing them of the temptation to try and squeeze one more year out of a popular yet declining veteran, at a point where he really isn't a logical fit."  This was exactly my thought when I heard the news.  More than likely, there will be OF/DH players that can be had in free agency for much better value and less money than resigning Hunter would have likely required.

 

 

Free agency? Hell, we have a guy in Arcia who likely will exceed those numbers Hunter put up (and cost 10 mil less)

[Mike Sixel]

I think we are missing Nick's point, which is the point I tried to make also......

 

Torii created conflicting feelings for some, Flip was just the kind of individual you could root for.

[bombo]

Hahahaha yeah Arcia is going to exceed those numbers alright. He has one chance left with the club. He certainly isn't exceeding those numbers next season.

[bombo]

No, it just makes said person a bigoted person.

 

Disagree if you want. There's plenty that don't which is why the majority of people are able to look past his opinions and personal beliefs.

[bombo]

I didn't say he shouldn't share his beliefs.......but admitting you are a racist bigot (you know, his comments about people not actually being black) has consequences, one of those is that some people won't like you as much as a person. Speaking your mind has consequences, as it should, it is why many don't. I do admire his courage in speaking his mind, but I don't like his message.

 

I'm pretty sure Hunter has more than enough people who think highly of him as evidenced by all of those reaching out either via social media or through the media with well wishes on his retirement. I don't think it lost him too many friends.

[DaveW]

 

Hahahaha yeah Arcia is going to exceed those numbers alright. He has one chance left with the club. He certainly isn't exceeding those numbers next season.

He had a higher OPS then Hunter last season.

[Mike Sixel]

Disagree if you want. There's plenty that don't which is why the majority of people are able to look past his opinions and personal beliefs.

Isn't that what I said? I still rooted for him to do well on the Twins.....doesn't mean I have to like his opinions or him. I looked beyond them while he was on the field.

[drock2190]

If you firmly believe in the bible, why can't you express your beliefs that way? OH wait, times are changing, you must go with the flow.

 

 

[DaveW]

 

If you firmly believe in the bible, why can't you express your beliefs that way? OH wait, times are changing, you must go with the flow.

The bible literally sayings NOTHING about Gay marriage

[bombo]

He had a higher OPS then Hunter last season.

 

Well if he had a higher OPS then he must have been much better right? Glad you see we're using sample sizes of 58 at-bats too. Why limit the sample size there. Doug Bernier had a higher OPS than either of them so he must be better than both right?

[mikelink45]

It is alright and necessary to separate the athlete and the person - it happens all the time.  When public figures make public statements they should be accountable and a home run does not take the statement away.  I really dislike Torii's personal beliefs, but I do not dislike Torii and I was really pleased with his locker room presence and for 1/2 the year his at bats.  However, what if he did have a gay team mate of a black latino teammate?  It's time for Torii to grow up with his racist and homophobic positions.  I am pleased he is retiring, not because of his remarks, but because the Twins really do need to move on and this is a good transition for them.  Please Terry do not think about AJ as the next Torii.

 

Flip is another issue.  Having no relationship at all with him, I still grew to really like him and his radio comments seem to bring the personal and the professional together as a really loveable and genuine human being.  He will be missed and I am sorry his is not around for our young nucleus.

[Mike Sixel]

If you firmly believe in the bible, why can't you express your beliefs that way? OH wait, times are changing, you must go with the flow.

Again, who said you couldn't? But taking a political stand has consequences, some positive, some negative.

Edited October 27, 2015 by Mike Sixel

[Seth Stohs]

Kirby Puckett was my favorite player of all time. After the news came out of his transgressions, I stopped thinking of him as more than my favorite player of all time. I can acknowledge that he wasn't a great person. That doesn't change what he is as a teammate, friend, all those things. Puckett remains my favorite player of all time.

 

Torii Hunter has had a tremendous baseball career. He has put up great numbers. It's OK to say that he's one's favorite player while not agreeing with his personal beliefs. It's also OK to acknowledge that he was a great leader and teammate. 

 

 

[DaveW]

 

Well if he had a higher OPS then he must have been much better right? Glad you see we're using sample sizes of 58 at-bats too. Why limit the sample size there. Doug Bernier had a higher OPS than either of them so he must be better than both right?

Arcia also has produced for his other two seasons in the majors as well, it isn't a stretch at all to say it's reasonable to think he can at least duplicate Hunter's numbers this year.

[drock2190]

 

The bible literally sayings NOTHING about Gay marriage

 

Your right. But in order to not turn this into a religious discussion, I'll stop the conversation here.

[TheLeviathan]

I will greatly miss the Funkadelic, it actually relit my interest in the Wolves a bit purely by how likable Flip Saunders was.  He and Barreiro made for some excellent radio and that segment will be sorely missed.

 

Barreiro's tribute show was excellent, it's another reminder how spoiled we are by that program and we rarely celebrate it for what it is.

[ashbury]

Because on the other hand, Hunter has said some things off the field that have really rubbed me the wrong way. And while I'm very much accustomed to setting aside the personal dispositions and quirks of professional athletes in order to enjoy them as performers, some of his outspoken remarks regarding gay marriage and homosexuality in general have been off-putting to me on a rather visceral level.

 

Moderator's note: Nick's passing comment about this has led to a re-opening of a discussion that has been hashed and re-hashed here many times over. Please keep your posts civil, and in particular avoid taking it upon yourself to correct the behavior of others. Discussing Torii is fair game (if done with the usual respect expected here), while for a variety of reasons discussing other people just isn't. Posts that amount to bickering will be removed.