Marco Estrada: Illegal Pitch?

[powrwrap]

I had an umpire friend of mine call me up during the Blues Jays/Royals game to tell me that Marco Estrada was committing an illegal pitch on every pitch he made whenever there were no men on base. I took a look and I think my friend is correct. Estrada starts out in the windup position then without taking his pivot foot off the rubber, he transitions into the set position.

 

https://youtu.be/iy3iT3FOSwQ

 

 

The rule, 5.07.8.01[a] and is quite clear:

 

The Windup Position
The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in con-
tact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this
position any natural movement associated with his delivery of
the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption
or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the
ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter,
he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.

 

The Set Position
Set Position shall be indicated by the pitcher when he stands
facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his
other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate, holding the ball in
both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop.

Preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have
one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set
position.

 

Looks to me that Estrada is making an illegal pitch. I suppose it's just another rule that the umpires don't bother to enforce, like pitchers putting pine tar on the ball.

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

From the official rule comments:

 

Rule 8.01(a) Comment: In the Windup Position, a pitcher... may not go into a set or stretch position, if he does it is a balk.

 

http://mlb.mlb.com/mlb/official_info/official_rules/pitcher_8.jsp

 

Calling for a "balk" rather than an "illegal pitch" (which is used elsewhere in the rule) suggests that this simple move isn't really a violation without runners on base.

[powrwrap]

 

Your observation seems to be the only way to interpret why the umpires are not calling it an illegal pitch, and would thus be called a ball. An illegal pitch is specifically defined as, with no one on base, a pitch with the pitcher's pivot foot not touching the rubber or a quick return pitch.

 

But clearly, Estrada is not following the Windup and Set Position rules in 5.07.8.01[a] and . He is in the windup position and he does not deliver a pitch, instead there is an interruption and alteration in his delivery. So he's doing something illegal.

 

If I were a batter I'd call time out when Estrada switches over from the windup position and the set position and have my manager come out and seek clarification of the rule.

 

[USAFChief]

1. It can not be a balk with nobody on base, so rule that out.

 

2. I see nothing in the movement that is in violation of the windup rule, so why would it be illegal?

[powrwrap]

 

1. It can not be a balk with nobody on base, so rule that out.

2. I see nothing in the movement that is in violation of the windup rule, so why would it be illegal?

 

The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in con-
tact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this
position any natural movement associated with his delivery of
the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption
or alteration.

 

Once he's in the windup position, (and he is) he is committed to deliver the pitch with no interruption. Obviously going to the set position is an interruption in his pitch delivery.

[USAFChief]

 

The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in con-
tact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this
position any natural movement associated with his delivery of
the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption
or alteration.

 

Once he's in the windup position, (and he is) he is committed to deliver the pitch with no interruption. Obviously going to the set position is an interruption in his pitch delivery.

He's not going to a set position.  

 

He is in a windup.  

[powrwrap]

 

He's not going to a set position.  

 

He is in a windup.  

 

Whatever you say...

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

That's his wind up delivery. I think from what you are saying, a key clause would be:

 

"any natural movement associated with his delivery"

[powrwrap]

 

That's his wind up delivery. I think from what you are saying, a key clause would be:

"any natural movement associated with his delivery"

 

Does he stand facing the batter with his pivot foot in contact with, and his other foot in front of, the pitcher’s plate? Check.

 

Does he hold the ball in both hands in front of his body and coming to a complete stop? Check.

 

That's the definition of the set position.

[USAFChief]

By the by, I also don't agree that umpires ignore "pitchers putting pine tar on the ball."

 

Is it possible you have an ax to grind?

[SockNet]

I wouldn't say that what your calling a pause in the set position isn't really a pause because every pitcher has that when turning his pivot foot after the rocker step. His rocker step just happens to be forward. He is not reposition himself to pitch from the stretch so wouldn't need to step off. That looks like one motion to me and is not intended to deceive which is the purpose of the rule. The rule does state the free foot gets one step back and one forward and it looks form that angle he takes two forward. If we want to be picky. 

 

[powrwrap]

 

By the by, I also don't agree that umpires ignore "pitchers putting pine tar on the ball."

 

Is it possible you have an ax to grind?

 

I'm just an observer. I've seen plenty of pitchers that have foreign substances on their caps and uniform. They constantly go to it and use it to get a better grip. Joe Nathan was a notorious user of pine tar and rosin. There are many others. 

 

Remember Kenny Rogers in the 2006 ALCS? Jon Lester in the 2013 World Series?

 

 

[zenser]

The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in con-
tact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this
position any natural movement associated with his delivery of
the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption
or alteration.

 

Would you consider Nomo's delivery in violation of this rule?  Would his pause when he held the ball over his head or his pause when his left leg was elevated be considered an interruption?

[powrwrap]

 

The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in con-
tact with the pitcher’s plate and the other foot free. From this
position any natural movement associated with his delivery of
the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption
or alteration.

 

Would you consider Nomo's delivery in violation of this rule?  Would his pause when he held the ball over his head or his pause when his left leg was elevated be considered an interruption?

 

I don't think so because he doesn't come to the set position. It's just a temporary pause in the continuation of his motion and then he delivers the pitch. But I see your point. Juan Marichal's high leg kick was somewhat similar. He had a spot in his delivery where he kind of froze at the high point of his kick then continued with his motion.

 

I suppose this is the rationale that the umps use to ignore Estrada's interruption/alteration of his "normal delivery". Just guessing though.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Question for you, and I know you've seen this:

 

1. Nobody on base, pitcher pitching from the windup.

 

2. He starts his windup.

 

3. He gets a bug in his eye or something.

 

4. Interrupts his windup/ does not throw pitch.

 

..........What happens?

[powrwrap]

 

Question for you, and I know you've seen this:

 

1. Nobody on base, pitcher pitching from the windup.

 

2. He starts his windup.

 

3. He gets a bug in his eye or something.

 

4. Interrupts his windup/ does not throw pitch.

 

..........What happens?

 

Umpire calls time and resets the pitch.

[DaveW]

If it is illegal and the royals weren't complaining is it really a rule violation?

[powrwrap]

 

If it is illegal and the royals weren't complaining is it really a rule violation?

 

Nowhere does the rulebook say this is a manager optional rule. (Like a batter hitting a double after his bat strikes the catcher's mitt for catcher's interference--manager has option of taking the double or having his batter-runner put on first base.)

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Generally, there's no penalty to the pitcher for interrupting his windup if no one is on base, whether he gets a bug in his eye or if he gets creative with his delivery, like Nomo. 

 

Also, the first statement in that section undercuts your argument somewhat: 

 

There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Position and the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time.

 

Whatever, it's an interesting idea and fun to know that Estrada has such an odd windup. You wonder how he developed it like that.

 

[Trov]

If you want to call this illegal because he takes a slight pause then just about every Asian pitcher throws illegal pitches.  They all have  a pause in their delivery.

[Hrbowski]

 

If you want to call this illegal because he takes a slight pause then just about every Asian pitcher throws illegal pitches.  They all have  a pause in their delivery.

Asian pitchers are actually quite fun to watch, with the way they are consistently playing the timing game. The Asian hitters do the same thing.

[powrwrap]

 

Also, the first statement in that section undercuts your argument somewhat: 

 

There are two legal pitching positions, the Windup Position and the Set Position, and either position may be used at any time.

 

Whatever, it's an interesting idea and fun to know that Estrada has such an odd windup. You wonder how he developed it like that.

 

Except the comment on the rule says:

 

From the windup position.....

 

{list of three things the pitcher may do}

 

...the pitcher may not go into the set or stretch position--if he does it is a balk.

 

This is my point--Estrada starts in the windup position, goes to the set position and then pitches. This is not legal. Apparently there is no penalty for it with no one on base. It is kind of a quirky loophole.

[Otto von Ballpark]

There is also this clause:

 

preparatory to coming to a set position, the pitcher shall have one hand on his side; from this position he shall go to his set position.

 

Since Estrada is not doing that, maybe he's not considered to be in the set position?  In which case, perhaps this is just doing a long/weird wind-up with no one base, which isn't against the rules.