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2015-16 Wolves thread

kab21

By kab21
in Minnesota Timberwolves Talk

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ALessKosherScott College Ball

ALessKosherScott

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I still wish there was a way to trade down and wind up with both Sabonis and Valentine. Muhammed and the pick could get it done if Sabonis wasn't climbing these mocks making some of the trade candidates like Denver, Boston, and Phoenix so unlikely.

 

I think if you did it, Toronto picks 9 and 27 would be your target, giving them the chance to trade up and take Murray. Then of course, the question becomes how far does Valentine fall?

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bluechipper GCL Twins

bluechipper

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Okafor for the 5 doesn't interest me. Russell for the five though...

I was a huge Russell fan coming out of Ohio State last year, but with what went on this year, I'm not so sure I'd really want to root for him on the Wolves.

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bluechipper GCL Twins

bluechipper

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Yes, and it's official. Unless you count the Lynx. Personally, I don't think you'd be a big jerk for not including the Lynx. 

If you count the Lynx, then Cleveland should have already been off the list with Ohio State football.

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BeenHazy

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What do the Wolves do if Bender is available?  A number of mocks now have some combination of Hield, Criss and Brown going 3-4.  They also have the Wolves passing on him in favor of one of the guards.

 

He's the best match for what the team needs - a 4 that can shoot a little, pass, and defend the perimeter.  He has a Thibs-friendly work ethic and BBIQ.  Negs are rebounding (likely fixable), slashing (doesn't matter with Wiggins and LaVine) and finally (and especially) youth.  He'll need some time.

 

If Bender can match the LaVine timetable and contribute by the 2nd half of his 2nd year, I think that's soon enough.

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kab21 GCL Twins

kab21

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Don't we decide how the defensive matchups happen in basketball?  Short of substitions by the other team, but the PF spot is becoming too athletic for someone like Love to hide from.  

 

That said, I'd rather have Noah and one of hte guards in the draft anyway, just was thinking about a young player that could bring an interesting dimension.

You want your strongest defending big man near the basket instead of being a perimeter defender. Towns is special because he can be the anchor for the defense while causing the opposing big man big problems on the offensive end in addition to drawing him away from the hoop. 

 

The other reason that he is special is that he allows a team to play 5 quick players and if they can all shoot the outside shot then the middle of the floor is open for pick and rolls and slashing to the hoop. Adding a player like Okafor allows one big man to stay near the paint clogging the middle. 

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TheLeviathan All-Star

TheLeviathan

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You want your strongest defending big man near the basket instead of being a perimeter defender. Towns is special because he can be the anchor for the defense while causing the opposing big man big problems on the offensive end in addition to drawing him away from the hoop. 

 

The other reason that he is special is that he allows a team to play 5 quick players and if they can all shoot the outside shot then the middle of the floor is open for pick and rolls and slashing to the hoop. Adding a player like Okafor allows one big man to stay near the paint clogging the middle. 

 

So, your idea that's better is to have Kevin Love defending on the perimeter?  While he may be better for spacing on offense, he's just as big (if not bigger, because he can't defend anywhere on the court) a liability on defense.

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kab21 GCL Twins

kab21

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Yes, there is no doubt that Towns guards a player like D'Andre Jordan or Andre Drummond (or any of the classic bigs) instead of Kevin Love or Jahlil Okafor. The entire defense revolves around the man in the middle.

 

By pairing Okafor with Towns you allow the classic centers in the league to stay in the paint and guard Okafor. Towns is going to absolutely wreck Dwight Howard or Al Jefferson on offense since they can't keep up with him on the perimeter. That potential is gone when Okafor and Towns are on the floor together.

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TheLeviathan All-Star

TheLeviathan

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Yes, there is no doubt that Towns guards a player like D'Andre Jordan or Andre Drummond (or any of the classic bigs) instead of Kevin Love or Jahlil Okafor. The entire defense revolves around the man in the middle.

 

By pairing Okafor with Towns you allow the classic centers in the league to stay in the paint and guard Okafor. Towns is going to absolutely wreck Dwight Howard or Al Jefferson on offense since they can't keep up with him on the perimeter. That potential is gone when Okafor and Towns are on the floor together.

 

And having Kevin Love on your team means he basically can't play against teams that feature players like Draymond Green or other athletic PFs.  The trade off you're proposing isn't a no brainer, it's a choice between more floor spacing and one horrific defender, or someone with more of a presence in the paint.

 

See, for me, I like the idea on offense of letting Towns be both an inside and outside force and you have that when you have a guy like Okafor around.  Towns can space or he can join Okafor down low.  And I'm fine with allowing a big man to stay on the court because I still like the matchup of Towns versus basically any type of front court player you can imagine.  And it allows for two good rebounders to work together on both ends.

 

Neither scenario is likely to happen.  Ideally, in a perfect world, I'd rather pair Towns with a Draymond Green.  That's the best of both worlds.

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ALessKosherScott College Ball

ALessKosherScott

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I think the flaw in that is Love is a better perimeter pick and roll defender that Towns, and Towns is a better rim protector than Okafor. Love is at his best when he plays next to a center who can block shots, as opposed to a Pek or Tristan Thompson. And the flaw with Dieng and Towns was that in an ideal world both are more true 5s defensively. A guy like Okafor wrecks the defense and offense, because he's not very versatile. 

 

Granted, if I could pick anyone to pair with Towns I go Porzingis. But Love with a reasonably decent defensive 3 is a more reasonable scenario. I'm still hoping Bender makes it to five.

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kab21 GCL Twins

kab21

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And having Kevin Love on your team means he basically can't play against teams that feature players like Draymond Green or other athletic PFs.  The trade off you're proposing isn't a no brainer, it's a choice between more floor spacing and one horrific defender, or someone with more of a presence in the paint.

 

See, for me, I like the idea on offense of letting Towns be both an inside and outside force and you have that when you have a guy like Okafor around.  Towns can space or he can join Okafor down low.  And I'm fine with allowing a big man to stay on the court because I still like the matchup of Towns versus basically any type of front court player you can imagine.  And it allows for two good rebounders to work together on both ends.

 

Neither scenario is likely to happen.  Ideally, in a perfect world, I'd rather pair Towns with a Draymond Green.  That's the best of both worlds.

 

Towns can be an inside/outside force on offense w/o Okafor around. In fact not having Okafor around makes that possible. If Okafor is around Towns becomes mostly an outside player or Wiggins/Lavine/Rubio are going to have no open lanes to drive to the basket. In 1984 Okafor and Towns would have been a killer combo but the current NBA is all about spacing the floor.

 

Both Okafor and Love are defensive liabilities but Okafor completely changes the offense since he will be a post up player and allow one big man to stay near the basket. The other part that you are missing is that Towns at the 5 basically creates all of the death lineup matchup problems (dependent on the rest of the team being good) that the Warriors have when they have Draymond at the 5. 

I continue to offer Taj Gibson as a reasonable option that can be acquired. Competent offensive player and an excellent defender on a team with 3 potential 20+ point scorers. This is also the reason that I mention Saric in a trade for the #5 pick. Okafor is a great value in that trade but he is a poor fit on offense while not being good at defense at all.

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TheLeviathan All-Star

TheLeviathan

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I get your argument kab, but Love isn't much better in terms of the liabilities he offers.  Yes, he can space the floor on offense, but then his rebounding value takes a hit.  Add in that he basically can't guard anyone, regardless of skill set.  Big guys are too physical, small guys are too fast, he's just an instant matchup nightmare defensively the second he hits the court.

 

I'd like the death lineup idea for this team, but we need to find a 4 that fits that and I'd agree Okafor does not.  But neither does Love.

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ALessKosherScott

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I think you're off on the versatility Love offers this team offensively. Essentially you have two bigs who can score inside and outside, hit free throws, make excellent passes and crash the boards offensively in Towns and Love. The only interior tandem who stands much of a chance defensively is Duncan/Aldridge if Duncan comes back. Towns exploited Green offensively as a mismatch in the two March games. Throw in Love and the Warriors wouldn't know what hit them. If they tried to stop Love, Towns would tear them apart and vice versa. You give up defense at the power forward position. But you're heading toward the Don Nelson equal parts lineup that's near impossible to defend. Granted, it's a lesser defensive lineup than ideal. But it's a thousand times preferable to a lineup with Okafor, who needs to be in the paint, both offensively and defensively.

 

You're not going to get Green (or Porzingis). Other guys who might be available (Horford, Milsap, Favors) have their own set of flaws essentially on offense. Every player has his flaws. Love is no different. But his strengths married with Towns could create a very unstoppable offense.

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TheLeviathan All-Star

TheLeviathan

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You're not going to get Green (or Porzingis). Other guys who might be available (Horford, Milsap, Favors) have their own set of flaws essentially on offense. Every player has his flaws. Love is no different. But his strengths married with Towns could create a very unstoppable offense.

 

Maybe the offense is enough to make up for it, but he basically became unplayable in the Finals because of his inability to match up with people.  And I worry, because he's already not much of an athlete, that his decline will hit sharply.

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kab21 GCL Twins

kab21

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Maybe the offense is enough to make up for it, but he basically became unplayable in the Finals because of his inability to match up with people.  And I worry, because he's already not much of an athlete, that his decline will hit sharply.

 

He was unplayable because he didn't fit the offense. Once combined with his defensive liabilities and Lebron being a much better option at the 4 it isn't difficult to see why he didn't play.

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TheLeviathan All-Star

TheLeviathan

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He was unplayable because he didn't fit the offense. Once combined with his defensive liabilities and Lebron being a much better option at the 4 it isn't difficult to see why he didn't play.

 

Lebron was a much better option at the 4 because he was more versatile.  Love has an extremely limited skill set and basically no skill set for defense.  That's the problem.

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kab21 GCL Twins

kab21

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Lebron was a much better option at the 4 because he was more versatile.  Love has an extremely limited skill set and basically no skill set for defense.  That's the problem.

Lebron is a top 3 player in the game whose natural position right now is the 4. Of course he was a better option at the 4. This is meaningless since Lebron isn't an option for the Wolves. Love had a really limited skillset because the system in Cleveland needed him to stay out of the way.

 

Perhaps there are better options available (and that means actually available) but Love makes this team better. Okafor doesn't even though he isn't a bad player. He just isn't the right player for the Wolves.

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