Baseball's culture clash: Vast majority of brawls involve differing ethnicities

[jimmer]

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/09/30/mlb-bench-clearing-brawls-unwritten-rules-ethnic-backgrounds/73066892/

 

So the article I linked above, done with the backing of research, suggest that part of the reason there are so many confrontations at the major league level stems from cultural difference.  Meaning that maybe the PLAYERS' cultural upbringing may effect why some players play the game one way in regards to unwritten rules and why others play it a different way.  The study believes that many of the clashes between players happen because of this, because of a fundamental difference in how they were taught the game and how they played it where they come from. In fact, one player comes right out and says it.

 

It also just talks about how unwritten rules are in the eye of the beholder regardless of upbringing (giving more credence to the idea many are ridiculous).

This seems like something that should be allowed to be discussed and in no way suggest any POSTERS (or really any players) are being racist in their backing of unwritten rules. Because having conflicts due to cultural differences doesn't have to, and often doesn't, have to do with actual hate of a particular race.

[twinsnorth49]

This isn't too hard to accept really, customs are very different in almost every country and unless you have knowledge of them beforehand it can be quite easy to insult someone by breaking one. Baseball would certainly seem ripe for this kind of misunderstanding, I would imagine trying to learn all the unwritten rules of MLB baseball would be as difficult for a Dominican as trying to figure out all the contradictions of the English language.

[spinowner]

 

This isn't too hard to accept really, customs are very different in almost every country and unless you have knowledge of them beforehand it can be quite easy to insult someone by breaking one. 

Or it can be quite easy to get your leg broken if you are Japanese and don't play the game the way it's played in the major leagues.

[Shaitan]

Without reading, what is "so many confrontations"?

 

Because, really, there are thousands if not millions of ABs each year and probably 25-50 confrontations. That seems like a miniscule percentage.

[jimmer]

I suppose I should have re-read my post a few times so the point of the article wasn't lost or discarded by the way I wrote the description in a line or two.  How about 'that so many of the confrontations seem to stem, at least in part, from cultural differences in regards to how to play the game.'  

 

In any event, I would recommend reading the article. It's interesting.

[Shaitan]

I'll flag it for later. Bedtime now.

 

I just had to comment after yesterday's thread because sometimes these things get blown so far out of proportion.

[DaveW]

I think this is all sorta horse**** and just lazy excuse for some players just being *******s in general.

 

Human history has shown us that people will look for any reason in the world to fight with one another. Baseball has had these stupid "unwritten rules" or "beanball games" going on for years. To try to turn it into some bizzarre "culture clash" issue, is again. Just lazy.

[DaveW]

 

 

Or it can be quite easy to get your leg broken if you are a terrible player who had no business every playing in the major league and don't play the game the way it's played in the major leagues.

Fixed.

[DaveW]

Cultural Clashes!

 

http://media.giphy.com/media/Es1K4bm1ECiY0/giphy.gif

 

 

http://stream1.gifsoup.com/view/35512/hockey-fight-o.gif

 

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

I think that this might be a good case for correlation does not equal causation.  Baseball is probably one of the most ethnically diverse sports out there, which means that any confrontation is likely to have other ethnicities involved.   Sure, I could buy that there may be something to be said for learning a culture, but I am pretty skeptical that this is a cultural thing.  Now if they can show how these confrontations have increased from when baseball was a lot less diverse, there might be something here.

[jimmer]

“I think it’s a culture shock,’’ Norris said. “This is America’s game. This is America’s pastime, and over the last 10-15 years we’ve seen a very big world influence in this game, which we as a union and as players appreciate. We’re opening this game to everyone that can play. However, if you’re going to come into our country and make our American dollars, you need to respect a game that has been here for over a hundred years, and I think sometimes that can be misconstrued. There are some players that have antics, that have done things over the years that we don’t necessarily agree with.'

 

Sure seems like this player understand the game is played differently elsewhere.

 

Then there's the following:

 

'While there’s a certain uniformity to the way the game is played in the U.S., the standards are quite different in other countries. In Korea, for example, bat-flipping is commonplace, without negative repercussions.

 

In Latin countries, the pros typically play more to the crowd, and actions that are often called “antics’’ in the U.S. are regarded as simply part of the show. Dominican-born reliever Fernando Abad of the Oakland Athletics said players often “dog’’ or taunt each other, but it’s considered fun, not disrespectful.

 

“Baseball back home is very different than here,’’ Abad said. “In Venezuela it’s the same as in the Dominican, where players gesticulate and point a lot. Fans expect it. They’re used to seeing the players do that. It’s part of the custom.’’'

 

Right there, the player(s) is saying that things that are not only things done in the game where they grew up that is different than how we expect the game to play (in regards to unwritten rules), but it's expected and enjoyed by players and fans.

 

So these players watch a game played a certain way their whole life, play it that way growing up and then get told when they get to the US everything they knew is wrong and now play it another way and they are supposed to turn a switch off in their head and change right away? David Ortiz still hasn't learned.

 

And yet we want to believe there's no cultural differences involved that may contribute to the difference in what some think is acceptable actions when playing and what others think aren't acceptable?  And that difference of opinion isn't going to show up in regards to unwritten rules?  

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

Another excellent post jimmer. I'd offer only one amendment to the end: that the vague nature of the unwritten rules allows some to impose their version of the "right way" on others. Often, as Norris says, to send the message that "your way" isn't welcome in America.

[drjim]

I suspect a lot of the cultural misunderstandings get weeded out in the minors. And I also suspect that a similar article with similar conclusions could have been written at any point in the last 50-60 years and would have been as accurate then as it is now.

[DaveW]

What Norris said is pretty insulting IMO

[biggentleben]

 

What Norris said is pretty insulting IMO

 

Yup. If he learns how to keep the ball in the park, perhaps he would provide so many ample bat flip opportunities.

[twinsnorth49]

"Our American dollars"?

 

Good grief, Norris talks as if he's entitled to play professional baseball just because he happens to have been born in the US. He's lucky to be on the same field as most of the foreign players in the league, who are far more entertaining to watch than stiffs like him.

[Hrbowski]

 

"Our American dollars"?

 

Good grief, Norris talks as if he's entitled to play professional baseball just because he happens to have been born in the US. He's lucky to be on the same field as most of the foreign players in the league, who are far more entertaining to watch than stiffs like him.

You are actually quite wrong there, he isn't saying that at all, he is saying that since they are working in America they should be respectful to the Americans, not trying to piss them off. If the players don't realize that they are pissing other players off they are extremely stupid, this is a North American league, and if American players were doing their thing down in the Dominican, they would be just as wrong.

 

Personally, I think a cool headed player, who is not a self centered, arrogant jock is the most entertaining to watch.

[TheLeviathan]

To have fun and celebrate makes you arrogant and self-centered? Our tyrannical Puritan roots strike again!

[twinsnorth49]

You are actually quite wrong there, he isn't saying that at all, he is saying that since they are working in America they should be respectful to the Americans, not trying to piss them off. If the players don't realize that they are pissing other players off they are extremely stupid, this is a North American league, and if American players were doing their thing down in the Dominican, they would be just as wrong.

 

Personally, I think a cool headed player, who is not a self centered, arrogant jock is the most entertaining to watch.

Try to remember immigrants are what made your country what it is today.

 

It's a North American league because the teams are in North America not because Americans have some god given right to play in it and dictate everyone's behaviour.

 

How should Blue Jays players behave? I guess Encarnacion and Bautista should act a little more politely when they do something exciting, so as not to upset those boring Canadians?

 

Foreign players aren't invited guests in your country, they've earned the right to be there as much as anyone, they can act however they want.

[spinowner]

I'm reminded of the incident involving Sano after a home run in AA a couple years back. I don't recall the details but I think there was a dramatic bat flip and other actions showing up the opposition. Jeff Smith promptly removed him from the game at sat him out for a couple games afterward. Watching Sano now that type of thing would seem out of character. Now he waits until he gets to the dugout and celebrates with his teammates. It leads me to think that that behavior was indeed cultural and that at age 20 he hadn't had enough experience in the ways of American/Canadian baseball to understand how it would be perceived. This is not a defense of either culture, but I'm sure Sano now understands that if he were to do what he did in the big leagues he could expect a fastball in the ribs on his next at-bat.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't understand why "our" culture has to be the elimination of personality and exuberance from the game.  

 

And anyone that reads this and doesn't think Norris is walking a very fine line into something very nasty, may want to re-read it.  Frankly, I think his comments cross that line and I'd bet he's far from an isolated case.  

[USAFChief]

In other news: vast majority of brawls involve players from opposing teams.

[Mike Sixel]

In other news: vast majority of brawls involve players from opposing teams.

so obviously dismissive of something, just because you don't like what it says......or am I wrong here, did you read with an open mind and just conclude that everything that was said was wrong?

[TheLeviathan]

 

In other news: vast majority of brawls involve players from opposing teams.

 

Is this part of why you cling to the unwritten rules?  Some notion that they are the basis for a competitive spirit?

 

I've found that with others and I think it is a severely mistaken notion.

[USAFChief]

 

Is this part of why you cling to the unwritten rules?  Some notion that they are the basis for a competitive spirit?

 

I've found that with others and I think it is a severely mistaken notion.

I believe unwritten rules (also could be known as "norms," "commonly accepted behavior" etc etc) help to facilitate human interaction, rather than inhibit it.  They exist all over, and baseball shouldn't be expected to be different.  If not for the "unwritten rules" there'd be lots more "brawls" rather than fewer.  I truly don't understand the over-the-top reaction some fans seem to have to their existence.

 

As for the contention that "culture" has much, if anything to do with baseball's unwritten rules, I think it's unlikely at best.  There are different cultures on every team.  "Brawls" happen with people from both teams, of differing cultures.  Many of these "unwritten rules" existed long before there were much in the way of differing cultures even in the game.

 

Want to guess what Pedro Martinez would have done had someone pimped a HR, carried his bat halfway to first, and then tossed it at his dugout?  Care to guess whether it would have mattered if that batter was from the Dominican, from California, or from Mars?  

 

There aren't many "brawls," anyway.  The ones that happen, happen between TEAMS, not cultures.  That's my point.  

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

Oh, I think you are very much downplaying those sorts of inner-clubhouse conflicts. See Puig as an example.

 

Either way, your spin just doesn't jive with Norris' comments. Nor have I ever worked or existed in a work environment where it was an acceptable norm to respond to pride or exuberance with violence. If my coworker rubs my face in their accomplishment and I hurl a stapler at them so they show respect, am I lauded for my efforts?

 

Sorry, but I couldn't imagine a more preposterous defense of baseballs unwritten rules than comparing it to everyday norms. And we aren't even talking about the least defensible things like throwing at guys for stealing bases up by 2. (And yes...that happened)

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Your thread about unwritten rules is that way >>>>>>>>>>

 

I think "people fight" or "cultures clash sometimes" is a pretty accurate summary of this article, although there is definitely some good stuff in it.

[twinsnorth49]

 

I believe unwritten rules (also could be known as "norms," "commonly accepted behavior" etc etc) help to facilitate human interaction, rather than inhibit it.  They exist all over, and baseball shouldn't be expected to be different.  If not for the "unwritten rules" there'd be lots more "brawls" rather than fewer.  I truly don't understand the over-the-top reaction some fans seem to have to their existence.

 

As for the contention that "culture" has much, if anything to do with baseball's unwritten rules, I think it's unlikely at best.  There are different cultures on every team.  "Brawls" happen with people from both teams, of differing cultures.  Many of these "unwritten rules" existed long before there were much in the way of differing cultures even in the game.

 

Want to guess what Pedro Martinez would have done had someone pimped a HR, carried his bat halfway to first, and then tossed it at his dugout?  Care to guess whether it would have mattered if that batter was from the Dominican, from California, or from Mars?  

 

There aren't many "brawls," anyway.  The ones that happen, happen between TEAMS, not cultures.  That's my point.  

That sure doesn't sound like what Norris is talking about Chief. I agree certain, unspoken, common ground rules need to exist in every workplace and MLB is no different, I think the bigger issue in that regard is the reaction when those ground rules are broken. The reaction in MLB is akin to me punching my co worker in the face because he took my leftover pizza from the lunchroom fridge, except a punch in the face doesn't do nearly the damage a baseball does hurtling at 90 mph.

 

The problem I have with Norris's response is that it implies that if these foreign players are going to come and play baseball in America, they better damn well act like Americans. That's just ridiculous, especially coming from a fringe major leaguer like Norris. Funny part is, if there is a single player who seems to have rubbed players the wrong way the most it's Bryce Harper, and he's as American as apple pie from what I've read.

 

MLB could use a bit of a culture shift when it comes to it's buttoned down rules on decorum, I personally don't love demonstrative acts of celebration, I prefer understated confidence, but I also know others are different than me and that's ok. Hockey is a pretty good comparison, if a player celebrated a goal 30 years ago like Alex Ovechkin does these days , he would have guaranteed himself a crosscheck to the head or a thorough beating, but times change, attitudes change, personalities change, that needs to be more embraced.

[TheLeviathan]

Hockey needs to take the last step and do away with fighting, but they have taken significant steps to eliminate player policing and unwritten rules that were causing injuries and brutal behavior. And they allow on ice goal celebrations,which I think is awesome for the game. (And the kids I teach love it!)

[USAFChief]

 

That sure doesn't sound like what Norris is talking about Chief. I agree certain, unspoken, common ground rules need to exist in every workplace and MLB is no different, I think the bigger issue in that regard is the reaction when those ground rules are broken. The reaction in MLB is akin to me punching my co worker in the face because he took my leftover pizza from the lunchroom fridge, except a punch in the face doesn't do nearly the damage a baseball does hurtling at 90 mph.

 

The problem I have with Norris's response is that it implies that if these foreign players are going to come and play baseball in America, they better damn well act like Americans. That's just ridiculous, especially coming from a fringe major leaguer like Norris. Funny part is, if there is a single player who seems to have rubbed players the wrong way the most it's Bryce Harper, and he's as American as apple pie from what I've read.

 

MLB could use a bit of a culture shift when it comes to it's buttoned down rules on decorum, I personally don't love demonstrative acts of celebration, I prefer understated confidence, but I also know others are different than me and that's ok. Hockey is a pretty good comparison, if a player celebrated a goal 30 years ago like Alex Ovechkin does these days , he would have guaranteed himself a crosscheck to the head or a thorough beating, but times change, attitudes change, personalities change, that needs to be more embraced.

I'm not going to defend Norris, but I don't think one writer with a theory to prove finding one doofus to say something idiotic proves anything.

 

If people think "unwritten rules" are dumb, they have every right.  I disagree, and think they serve a purpose, and at the very least nothing to get so worked up about, but whatever.

 

But claiming some cultural basis?  Balderdash.  It's not "us 'mericans against the world."  It's "my team vs your team."