Article: Twins Get Crushed In Game 2

[TNTwinsFan]

All those other sports you refer to are contact sports.  Baseball is not a contact sport.  And, with the exception of hockey, the whole point of those other sports is to fight.  And with hockey, checking is part of the game.

 

So yeah, I think it's easy to say people can like those sports and can still stand behind the idea that violence in baseball shouldn't be allowed and is childish.

So the fist fights in hockey are part of the way the game is played? Not talking checking. Talking gloves off, punching in the throat and face. FIST. FIGHTS.

[Mike Sixel]

So the fist fights in hockey are part of the way the game is played? Not talking checking. Talking gloves off, punching in the throat and face. FIST. FIGHTS.

I personally hate it, but for many, it is part of what they like. I vastly prefer to watch the elegance of the international game, but again, it's entertainment, so I get that others don't share my opinion.

 

I do think that an argument can be made that the violence in hockey keeps the normal contact in line with being clean. I don't know if that is true or not, but I think that argument can be made.

 

That argument can't be made about showboating in baseball, since it causes no harm.

[TNTwinsFan]

the thought that violence is the answer to a problem that doesn't actually exist is a huge problem in the world. Huge. I weep that anyone thinks this is a good idea.UFC, boxing, MA.....those are professional fights. That's their purpose. How is that the same thing at all?

Are you weeping now then?

[Vanimal46]

So the fist fights in hockey are part of the way the game is played? Not talking checking. Talking gloves off, punching in the throat and face. FIST. FIGHTS.

 

 

Fighting in hockey is being phased out of the game, because at the end of the day, it doesn't serve a purpose. Here's the number of fights per game the last 5 years

 

14/15: 0.32

13/14: 0.38

12/13: 0.48

11/12: 0.44

10/11: 0.52

 

The game is changing, and values skill over enforcers now more than ever. Even old school hockey fans are turning over a new leaf. Why can't baseball do the same with these silly "unwritten rules"?

 

EDIT: Source - http://www.hockeyfights.com/stats/

Edited October 1, 2015 by Vanimal46

[Mike Sixel]

Thanks for another good writeup, Seth, even if I don't actually like the content!

[TNTwinsFan]

Fighting in hockey is being phased out of the game, because at the end of the day, it doesn't serve a purpose. Here's the number of fights per game the last 5 years

 

14/15: 0.32

13/14: 0.38

12/13: 0.48

11/12: 0.44

10/11: 0.52

 

The game is changing, and values skill over enforcers now more than ever. Even old school hockey fans are turning over a new leaf. Why can't baseball do the same with these silly "unwritten rules"?

 

EDIT: Source - http://www.hockeyfights.com/stats/

I guess I'm just in the camp that believes sometimes someone (including myself) needs to get punched in the mouth. Its like a reset button. I'm sure it doesn't always reset, but sometimes that's exactly what it takes. Violence CAN solve some problems (think Hitler, extreme example). A less extreme example would be that screaming kid who is throwing a tantrum because they aren't getting that toy at Walmart. Sometimes that kid needs a tanned hind end before they understand that we don't act that way when we don't get our way.

[Mike Sixel]

I guess I'm just in the camp that believes sometimes someone (including myself) needs to get punched in the mouth. Its like a reset button. I'm sure it doesn't always reset, but sometimes that's exactly what it takes. Violence CAN solve some problems (think Hitler, extreme example). A less extreme example would be that screaming kid who is throwing a tantrum because they aren't getting that toy at Walmart. Sometimes that kid needs a tanned hind end before they understand that we don't act that way when we don't get our way.

All the research shows you are 100% wrong about the kid thing.

 

And, come on, Hitler is like a guy showboating? Really?

 

edit: I'm out, I've made my points enough.

Edited October 1, 2015 by mike wants wins

[Vanimal46]

 

So the fist fights in hockey are part of the way the game is played? Not talking checking. Talking gloves off, punching in the throat and face. FIST. FIGHTS.

 

Meanwhile, the number of HBP per game in the MLB was very consistent from about 1915 until 1995, ranging from 0.15-0.25. After 1995, the number skyrocketed to 0.3 and hasn't decreased below that level since. Are we maybe taking these silly unwritten rules too seriously?

 

Source: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/MLB/bat.shtml 

 

EDIT:Ugh, I don't know why the link isn't working. If you're curious to know, go to baseball reference and you can see it in the MLB Batting Encyclopedia

Edited October 1, 2015 by Vanimal46

[jimmer]

 

So the fist fights in hockey are part of the way the game is played? Not talking checking. Talking gloves off, punching in the throat and face. FIST. FIGHTS.

 

So the fist fights in hockey are part of the way the game is played? Not talking checking. Talking gloves off, punching in the throat and face. FIST. FIGHTS.

Yeah and that's stupid too, but don't most of those come about when someone takes a cheap physical shot at someone first? Not something like I'm gonna fight Kane because he scored a 5th goal on me because my defender fell down and he shouldn't have even tried to score when that happened?

 

In any event, your comparing contact sports to non-contact sports.  I would also have an issue is a fight broke out at a chess match.  Another strategic, but non-contact, game.  :-)

[TNTwinsFan]

All the research shows you are 100% wrong about the kid thing.And, come on, Hitler is like a guy showboating? Really?

Clearly Hitler was an extreme example (I believe I said as much). But we're gonna have to agree to disagree on the kid thing. Although, honestly, I've not spanked my kid in a LONG time. However, when she was little a swift pop on the pamper butt got her attention real quick. Again, we'll just agree to disagree inspite of what the research shows.

 

Also, violence has been a part of human society and culture since the beginning. It exists in nature as well. I think we arrogantly believe that we must eliminate violence in order to be "civilized". But that debate is for an entirely different website altogether. So, I'll be done with that now. Thanks for the debate though!

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Boy will I be happy when Pelfrey isn't in the rotation next year. Nice guy, just does not have it anymore.

[jimmer]

 

I guess I'm just in the camp that believes sometimes someone (including myself) needs to get punched in the mouth. Its like a reset button. I'm sure it doesn't always reset, but sometimes that's exactly what it takes. Violence CAN solve some problems (think Hitler, extreme example). A less extreme example would be that screaming kid who is throwing a tantrum because they aren't getting that toy at Walmart.

 

Sometimes that kid needs a tanned hind end before they understand that we don't act that way when we don't get our way.

Don't we also teach kids that violence isn't the answer when having conflicts with kids on the school ground? Reminds me of the time I was at a game and a fan, upset that another fan was swearing with his kid around, decides to sucker punch the swearing fan when he wasn't looking.  The parent had problems with his kid hearing bad words but no problem with his kid seeing him assault a man?

 

But hey, the guy who got punched got tossed from the game and the man who committed assault was allowed to stay in the game.  So, who knows.

Edited October 1, 2015 by jimmer

[Mike Sixel]

Clearly Hitler was an extreme example (I believe I said as much). But we're gonna have to agree to disagree on the kid thing. Although, honestly, I've not spanked my kid in a LONG time. However, when she was little a swift pop on the pamper butt got her attention real quick. Again, we'll just agree to disagree inspite of what the research shows.

 

Also, violence has been a part of human society and culture since the beginning. It exists in nature as well. I think we arrogantly believe that we must eliminate violence in order to be "civilized". But that debate is for an entirely different website altogether. So, I'll be done with that now. Thanks for the debate though!

You know, we disagree on something here, but I love how you are typing respectfully here. thanks!

[TNTwinsFan]

You know, we disagree on something here, but I love how you are typing respectfully here. thanks!

Good! Me too! I didn't think an internet debate warrants a punch in the face anyway! Have a nice day brother!

[jimbo92107]

Most frustrating for me was that Pelfrey's MO for a bad start is very clear. If his stuff isn't bending enough, they start hitting hard line drives right away. That's the rumble before the avalanche, but Molitor didn't seem to notice, or chose to ignore the rumble.

 

Several Twins pitchers are subject to this form of collapse, but all of them stem from the same thing - lack of command. Pelfrey's craptavalanche comes from a lack of command, insufficient movement on his heater as he tries to bend it right and left, plus elevating it, plus pipelining it down the middle. This makes for a particularly explosive craptavalanche.

 

Thing is, a good manager is supposed to have a weather eye for such things. We here saw it coming several batters before the big, stinky craptavalanche hit the scoreboard. Even after it hit, whom did Molitor bring in? JR Graham, perhaps the second most prone to a craptavalanche. Graham has the proverbial "electric stuff," but his command appears to vary inversely with the importance of the outing. You don't bring in JR Graham to stop a craptavalanche.

 

Frankly, the Twins don't have a craptavalanche stopper in the pen. For that you need either an ace strikeout guy or a reliable sinker baller. A healthy Glenn Perkins could do it. But to prevent one, you have to yank Pelfrey early and have somebody like Trevor May ready to go. Then be ready to yank him early, and so on. No long leashes in this situation.

[John Bonnes]

Coupla WPA things....

 

1. In that Astros/MAriners game, there was a point in the 5th innings where the Mariners were up 6-3 and had a 91.4% chance to win that game. Ugh.

http://www.fangraphs.com/wins.aspx?date=2015-09-30&team=Mariners&dh=0&season=2015

 

2. Does anyone know the win percentage of a home team up 2-0 at the bottom of the 1st? I'd love to know, because while that blown replay call only increased the Indians chance by +1%, being called out certainly would have decreased their percentage chance. I wonder just how many % that messed up call was worth.

 

IMHO, that is two times in this series that video replay has screwed the Twins. And I don't mean "got the call write." I mean failed to do what it is supposed to do, which is get the call right.

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

2. Does anyone know the win percentage of a home team up 2-0 at the bottom of the 1st? I'd love to know, because while that blown replay call only increased the Indians chance by +1%, being called out certainly would have decreased their percentage chance. I wonder just how many % that messed up call was worth.

 

IMHO, that is two times in this series that video replay has screwed the Twins. And I don't mean "got the call write." I mean failed to do what it is supposed to do, which is get the call right.

According to this tool, an out on that play would have reduced their chance by about 5%.

 

http://gregstoll.dyndns.org/~gregstoll/baseball/stats.html#V.0.1.0.1

[Otto von Ballpark]

Still, when you are willing to give Pelfrey that level of leash, and the first guys up out of the pen are Graham and Duensing to pitch in multiple innings each, and our offense was silent and/or the other team's pitchers cruising, I don't think you can point to one play like that as a real difference-maker.

 

You can make a good argument that Pelfrey should have been pulled before Lindor's plate appearance, and certainly after with 2 runners on and Carlos Santana due up.  Could have gone with a higher-leverage arm like May to try getting out of the jam and maybe pitch another inning, and then let Hughes start an inning fresh as a "second starter" if you will.

 

An out call there probably just means the trouble is shifted to the third inning from the second, but the same basic problems remained for the Twins.

[TNTwinsFan]

Don't we also teach kids that violence isn't the answer when having conflicts with kids on the school ground? Reminds me of the time I was at a game and a fan, upset that another fan was swearing with his kid around, decides to sucker punch the swearing fan when he wasn't looking. The parent had problems with his kid hearing bad words but no problem with his kid seeing him assault a man?

 

But hey, the guy who got punched got tossed from the game and the man who committed assault was allowed to stay in the game. So, who knows.

Actually, I teach my kids that after all diplomatic approaches have been exhausted, sometimes you just have to defend yourself. And that you had better win. And that I have her back if diplomatic attempts failed. If she were to get suspended, I'd probably take her to get her hair done and then to the gun range. Then we'd talk about how to maybe improve her diplomacy skills while we knocked out a workout at the local gym! Edited October 1, 2015 by TNTwinsFan

[jimmer]

 

Actually, I teach my kids that after all diplomatic approaches have been exhausted, sometimes you just have to defend yourself. And that you had better win. And that I have her back if diplomatic attempts failed. If she were to get suspended, I'd probably take her to get her hair done and then to the gun range. Then we'd talk about how to maybe improve her diplomacy skills while we knocked out a workout at the local gym!

and would you say the proper way to defend yourself against a perceived disrespectful bat flip was a 90+ MPH pitch to the body? :-)

[TNTwinsFan]

and would you say the proper way to defend yourself against a perceived disrespectful bat flip was a 90+ MPH pitch to the body? :-)

Think the guy on the receiving end of said 90+mph FB would flip his bat in a similar manner again?

[jimmer]

 

Think the guy on the receiving end of said 90+mph FB would flip his bat in a similar manner again?

If I shoot a guy for stealing a pack of gum he won't be stealing that pack of gum again, but I'd think the punishment was probably way out of proportion to the crime, unless maybe if I was born and raised in Saudia Arabia or Iraq, where they run a kids arm over with a big truck, crushing his arm bones to tiny bits, for stealing a loaf of bread.

 

When I hear people call for beaning a guy, I often wonder how many people have been hit with a 90+ MPH pitch.  This isn't a tap on the behind, this can cause real physical damage.  Probably not a good punishment for a perceived disrespect that is done to a team that was already emotional from losing 7-1 at the time and seeing their pitcher serve up a meatball to a guy they chose to pitch to.  

 

Cause make no mistake, with the wild card so close and the Twins getting pummeled, they were already heated up.  Then the HR happened after their strategy backfired which made it worse.  The bat flip gave them an excuse to let all that rage out and focus attention on what the batter did as opposed to what the Indians just did to them when they are so close to the playoffs.

Edited October 1, 2015 by jimmer

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Actually, I teach my kids that after all diplomatic approaches have been exhausted, sometimes you just have to defend yourself.

There's nothing remotely "self defense" related about throwing a pitch at a batter, or spanking a child.

[TNTwinsFan]

There's nothing remotely "self defense" related about throwing a pitch at a batter, or spanking a child.

Look, this is an "in defense of honor" type event we're talking about here. Everyone i. The stadium, including the guys own manager, knew that what that kid did was not acceptable; regardless of the lack of a written rule. Everyone knows, including the bat flipper, knows what's voming. The first Twins pitcher who throws at an Indians hitter tonight will be issued a warning. There may be some jaw jacking (gotta defend your own players) but it won't be unexpected. What the kid needs to do is take his punishment without saying a word, giving a look, or retaliating (like a pro) and everyone will move on. Then, in his next plate appearance he can yank one off of Duensing, put his head down, run the damn bases, then go to his dugout.

[TNTwinsFan]

There's nothing remotely "self defense" related about throwing a pitch at a batter, or spanking a child.

By the way, self defense does not mean just physical self defense (although that's what we've all be taught). It simply isn't true, and trying to do so ignores human emotion and a sense of honor. We've been taught that honor doesn't matter. But it does. Ignore that at your own peril.

[TNTwinsFan]

If I shoot a guy for stealing a pack of gum he won't be stealing that pack of gum again, but I'd think the punishment was probably way out of proportion to the crime, unless maybe if I was born and raised in Saudia Arabia or Iraq, where they run a kids arm over with a big truck, crushing his arm bones to tiny bits, for stealing a loaf of bread.

 

When I hear people call for beaning a guy, I often wonder how many people have been hit with a 90+ MPH pitch.  This isn't a tap on the behind, this can cause real physical damage.  Probably not a good punishment for a perceived disrespect that is done to a team that was already emotional from losing 7-1 at the time and seeing their pitcher serve up a meatball to a guy they chose to pitch to.  

 

Cause make no mistake, with the wild card so close and the Twins getting pummeled, they were already heated up.  Then the HR happened after their strategy backfired which made it worse.  The bat flip gave them an excuse to let all that rage out and focus attention on what the batter did as opposed to what the Indians just did to them when they are so close to the playoffs.

Obviously you dont care about the bat flip, thus, feel little to no punishment should be administered. Seemingly, almost EVERYONE wearing a uniform who witnessed the event yesterday feels otherwise. You may want to advocate for change and you should if that's how you feel, but I think you're fighting an uphill battle. Maybe a better way to change this aspect of the game (filling a vacume currently filled by unwritten rules) would be to add a written rule about what someone on this thread called "unsportsmanlike conduct" for bat flips, etc. Maybe that would curb the scary violence. Maybe it wouldn't.

[jimmer]

 

By the way, self defense does not mean just physical self defense (although that's what we've all be taught). It simply isn't true, and trying to do so ignores human emotion and a sense of honor. We've been taught that honor doesn't matter. But it does. Ignore that at your own peril.

Calling for a player to be hit is calling for a physical act.

 

And who has been taught that honor doesn't or shouldn't exist?  You think because some people think hitting a defenseless batter with a 90+ MPH that can cause real damage because a team, that was already pissed off, saw what they perceived to be a disrespectful, but not violent, act?

 

I would opine there is no honor in throwing an object at such extreme speed at such a close range at a defenseless person.

Edited October 1, 2015 by jimmer

[jimmer]

 

Obviously you dont care about the bat flip, thus, feel little to no punishment should be administered. Seemingly, almost EVERYONE wearing a uniform who witnessed the event yesterday feels otherwise. You may want to advocate for change and you should if that's how you feel, but I think you're fighting an uphill battle. Maybe a better way to change this aspect of the game (filling a vacume currently filled by unwritten rules) would be to add a written rule about what someone on this thread called "unsportsmanlike conduct" for bat flips, etc. Maybe that would curb the scary violence. Maybe it wouldn't.

Maybe I believe a ton of baseball's unwritten rules are more about not upsetting a bunch of children who get butt-hurt because someone hit a HR and then 'disrespected them' because he showed some joy in doing so.  Maybe next time, don't serve up the gopher ball and let a sub .650 batter crush it.  The team was already pissed before that bat flip ever happened.  Losing 7-1 in the bottom of the eight, wild card within reach and this loss hurting their chances, perhaps the team was emotional and over-sensitive before the flip ever happened?

 

And just because a bunch of people want to stick with old traditions/ideas handed down from generation to generation doesn't make it right.  I could name a bunch of examples to illustrate that point throughout history.  For a long time in this game alone (let alone society), all the baseball people thought black men shouldn't play the game.  I guess group think made that opinion correct?  No, it did not.

Edited October 1, 2015 by jimmer

[TheLeviathan]

Unwritten rules are the worst precisely because they are unwritten.  They're left that way to give a lot of room for butt-hurt jerks to employ them at their own discretion.

 

Written rules are written precisely to avoid that same latitude of interpretation.  That's what makes them effective and not jerk emboldening.

[Kwak]

For all of those advocating throwing at Ramirez (or anyone else) you should consider that there will be a retaliation.  At this point of the season Cleveland has nothing to lose if punished by MLB, but the Twins can ill-afford to have an injured player (likely a regular) or a suspended pitcher.  Most likely the next Twins loss effectively ends their season.  The risk isn't worth the "reward".