Gophers Football

[Mr. Brooks]

I suggest everyone who doesn't like his "schtick" pay attention to what the team actually does. That they actually go to class, that they made a couple bowl games because of their gpa, that they are probably the #1 team in the country as far as giving back to the community and spending time with kids and patients at hospitals, Fleck will ultimately be judged on wins and losses, but non of this matters, I think people should just watch the NFL.

 

Iowa gets a lot of mileage off of a wave. Minnesota's team actually is in the building and not looking for cheap recognition for it.

All that stuff is awesome, honestly.

 

But as long as they (the school) are making millions of dollars from football, and charging for admission, and paying millions to coaches, I still get to judge them by their on field results, separate from whatever great stuff they do off the field.

[Badsmerf]

Another thing. I brought up Campbell for a reason. It is reasonable to expect his team to improve next year, because he already has big wins. Wins matter, especially wins over ranked opponents. The season before Fleck Minnesota was 5-4 in the big ten, and had been having moderate success for some time.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Well going 3-3 the rest of the way would qualify as winning some Big10 games, which is what I asked, and you said 3 or 4 years.

If they win 3 I'll give him some credit, but I'm just not understanding what anyone has seen to suggest they are capable of really beating anyone in the Big10.

 

You've also dismissed any growth in the program with 6 games left in the Big10 schedule.  Perhaps you should save some of the hyperventilating until season's end?

 

Moral victories like this one, can be building blocks for exactly the kinds of wins you're asking for.

[Mr. Brooks]

They played to win the game, they played their @sses off. They are the youngest team in college with 53 freshmen. They are missing their top 2 running backs, their top two corners, their top nose tackle, their top safety. They were down 23-14 with 2 minutes left at the #3 team in the country. So don't give them an ounce of credit, I don't care. I've been around the program since 88, I know whats going on.

No, I don't give credit for losing, not at this level. Youth sports, sure. These are grown men, part of a billion dollar industry.

A loss counts the same whether it's 1 point or 100. In the standings there is no difference, it's just a loss.

They lost the game, period.

And they should lose to Ohio State, I don't have a problem with that. This didn't start with me ripping them. I just get nauseous thinking about the praise they are going to get for losing by less than they were expected to.

[Mr. Brooks]

You've also dismissed any growth in the program with 6 games left in the Big10 schedule. Perhaps you should save some of the hyperventilating until season's end?

 

Moral victories like this one, can be building blocks for exactly the kinds of wins you're asking for.

What growth? That's what I keep asking. I don't see any growth. They've been outscored 190-58 since their last Big10 win. That's growth?

 

It doesn't matter how long I wait. They could lose out and I'd still keep hearing the same excuses.

The difference is that I'll come back and eat my due crow if I'm wrong.

[TheLeviathan]

 

What growth? That's what I keep asking. I don't see any growth. They've been outscored 190-58 since their last Big10 win. That's growth?

It doesn't matter how long I wait. They could lose out and I'd still keep hearing the same excuses.
The difference is that I'll come back and eat my due crow if I'm wrong.

 

Or you could just wait and see how things play out?  No one is crowing about the moral victory here, but you are dismissing progress this season only halfway in.  That's not fair either.

 

I'll wait to criticize/praise them as things happen I guess. 

[Mr. Brooks]

Or you could just wait and see how things play out? No one is crowing about the moral victory here, but you are dismissing progress this season only halfway in. That's not fair either.

 

I'll wait to criticize/praise them as things happen I guess.

Again, what growth, what progress?

 

And I am criticizing what has happened. I'm not the one trying to look into the future, I'm criticizing them for what has actually happened since Fleck got here. So I'm not sure what your second paragraph actually means.

[TheLeviathan]

He is a year and a half in, his recruiting class is pretty much all freshman on the field.  They've had a good win against Fresno and a bad loss against Maryland.  You can see that there is more talent on the field, more explosiveness, and more competitiveness than the previous regime.

 

I don't mind looking at a freshman group playing well in Ohio St. as a moral victory.  You are all over the place on the very idea that people might be happy with that because they haven't won enough Big 10 games, 3 games in.  

 

I guess I prefer to judge the growth of the season at the end of hte season, especially if I were using Big 10 wins as my barometer considering there are still six more of them.  

 

Maybe just chill a little bit.  I'm not going to award Fleck a 10 year extension for a moral victory, but I can appreciate that it's a good sign for the program.  Now he has to build off of it, if he doesn't - than I'll be critical for it. 

Edited October 14, 2018 by TheLeviathan

[Mr. Brooks]

Fair enough. I'll come back when the season is over.

[mngopherguy]

 

I really couldn't disagree more with everything you said. This is the big ten, not the Ivy League. I think it's great if Fleck is putting these kids into position to be successful after college. None of that wins games. You're making excuses for him, and it is not even asked for by Fleck or the gophers. This is still football, and that is how Fleck and this team should be evaluated.

This part of their schedule is soft, and they need to win in order to earn respect.

 

And I couldn't disagree more with what you just said.  I'm not making excuses, I'm saying there's something to what's going on off the field.  This is not the NFL.

 

I also take exception to the ivy league/Big Ten comment.  My oldest son is a 18 year old junior college baseball player who should be held accountable as much as any freshman athlete at the U. 

 

 

[Badsmerf]

Why should be be held to the same expectations as a big ten baseball player? Maybe baseball isn't the best example here, because the big ten isn't that great.

 

The guys on the gophers have a free ride to play football and win games. This is almost a job. They better have higher expectations than a juco player. Going to class and giving back to the community are great too, but it doesn't win games. If all the matters is gpa and community service just eliminate the football team.

[mngopherguy]

 

Why should be be held to the same expectations as a big ten baseball player? Maybe baseball isn't the best example here, because the big ten isn't that great.

The guys on the gophers have a free ride to play football and win games. This is almost a job. They better have higher expectations than a juco player. Going to class and giving back to the community are great too, but it doesn't win games. If all the matters is gpa and community service just eliminate the football team.

 

I could also turn it around and say if all that matters is wins and losses, just eliminate college football and have a minor leagues.  It all matters. I want to win the right way.  We should take pride in this.  I don't want to be Auburn, Miami, Penn St. win at all costs.  

 

.

[Vanimal46]

I think the most important thing in college football is allowing kids to participate in the activity they love and someone, whether it's the coaches, teammates, professors, etc. help them develop in all phases of life.

 

Very few make it to the next level of football... The vast majority move on with their life.

[Vanimal46]

I suggest everyone who doesn't like his "schtick" pay attention to what the team actually does. That they actually go to class, that they made a couple bowl games because of their gpa, that they are probably the #1 team in the country as far as giving back to the community and spending time with kids and patients at hospitals, Fleck will ultimately be judged on wins and losses, but non of this matters, I think people should just watch the NFL.

 

Iowa gets a lot of mileage off of a wave. Minnesota's team actually is in the building and not looking for cheap recognition for it.

Good post. His schtick appeals to the generation Zs and not us. Clearly the kids are buying in and growing into young adults.

[Badsmerf]

The success of a D1 program doesn't hinge on the ability to send kids to the NFL. Winning games in the big ten has nothing to do with that. Great NFL players come from all the collegiate programs. Many, aren't winning national titles, and I'm not even advocating for that! I just want them to compete in the big ten.

 

If you have mediocre expectations, you only get mediocre results. Not all successful teams trade their soul for wins. Stanford does alright. Clemson does alright (and I'd say dabo is pj fleck on steroids). Again, these things off the field are great. Pretty much all teams try to incorporate that, fleck/minnesota aren't special.

[Vanimal46]

I'm sure Fleck and his coaches don't have mediocre expectations for the program. They're building a foundation for a good program.

 

I don't know how you can expect them to be competitive in the Big 10 with 25 freshman, and lots of them getting significant playing time.

[Badsmerf]

Let's see how the next 6 games go. They go 500 or better, and I call this season a success. They win 2 and I'll be ambivalent. Less than that, and I'm going to continue to be critical.

[biggentleben]

 

No, I don't give credit for losing, not at this level. Youth sports, sure. These are grown men, part of a billion dollar industry.
A loss counts the same whether it's 1 point or 100. In the standings there is no difference, it's just a loss.
They lost the game, period.
And they should lose to Ohio State, I don't have a problem with that. This didn't start with me ripping them. I just get nauseous thinking about the praise they are going to get for losing by less than they were expected to.

 

As someone who has put on the pads, these are not grown men. No more than any college freshman is a grown man.

 

They're also not part of any industry. They're pawns for an industry that makes billions of dollars off of their bodies, their minds, and their failures. Tens of thousands of players strapped up to play college football across this country last year. Roughly 300 were drafted or signed as an undrafted free agent into the NFL in April. Those are the 1% of all college football players who will even have a training camp at the next level, let alone play at that level. The players receive no benefit from the industry. When I played, over half of the team qualified for scholarships on their own merits coming out of high school, so trying to sell the "free education" is bull, especially when that education is not extended to the athlete when he/she leaves their chosen sport due to injury or pursuit of a professional career in that sport.

 

To put it more clearly - if right now Annexstad said "F- you, Fleck, I'm out of here." He has no choices for another school in any FBS or now FCS school with new added regulations if he wants to be able to play in the 2019 season. He could pursue lesser competition for one season and then come back up for one season, but he doesn't get the ability to move.

 

On the other hand, if Minnesota tells Fleck the same thing at the end of the season, they are on the hook for the rest of his contract, and he can pursue a job at any school he wants while still being paid the rest of his contract by Minnesota.

 

The industry has nothing to do with the players on the field. You want to rip on the coaching, go right ahead, but click into the young men on the field, and that's where you'll get a big charge from me. Those guys are indentured servants, not "part" of anything profited from their actions on the field.

[biggentleben]

 

Why should be be held to the same expectations as a big ten baseball player? Maybe baseball isn't the best example here, because the big ten isn't that great.

The guys on the gophers have a free ride to play football and win games. This is almost a job. They better have higher expectations than a juco player. Going to class and giving back to the community are great too, but it doesn't win games. If all the matters is gpa and community service just eliminate the football team.

 

Some of them. While it's fun to see the awarded scholarship moments in a spring ball ceremony, there are many different types of scholarship levels a college athlete receives. For instance, nearly no college baseball player at the U of M is on full-ride. Football has a lot less full-ride scholarships as well because Minnesota values hockey and basketball more. That stuff all does matter. Not every player is getting a free education, and none of them has any free education the moment that they're no longer able to play the game.

[Mr. Brooks]

As someone who has put on the pads, these are not grown men. No more than any college freshman is a grown man.

 

They're also not part of any industry. They're pawns for an industry that makes billions of dollars off of their bodies, their minds, and their failures. Tens of thousands of players strapped up to play college football across this country last year. Roughly 300 were drafted or signed as an undrafted free agent into the NFL in April. Those are the 1% of all college football players who will even have a training camp at the next level, let alone play at that level. The players receive no benefit from the industry. When I played, over half of the team qualified for scholarships on their own merits coming out of high school, so trying to sell the "free education" is bull, especially when that education is not extended to the athlete when he/she leaves their chosen sport due to injury or pursuit of a professional career in that sport.

 

To put it more clearly - if right now Annexstad said "F- you, Fleck, I'm out of here." He has no choices for another school in any FBS or now FCS school with new added regulations if he wants to be able to play in the 2019 season. He could pursue lesser competition for one season and then come back up for one season, but he doesn't get the ability to move.

 

On the other hand, if Minnesota tells Fleck the same thing at the end of the season, they are on the hook for the rest of his contract, and he can pursue a job at any school he wants while still being paid the rest of his contract by Minnesota.

 

The industry has nothing to do with the players on the field. You want to rip on the coaching, go right ahead, but click into the young men on the field, and that's where you'll get a big charge from me. Those guys are indentured servants, not "part" of anything profited from their actions on the field.

They all signed up voluntarily.

I agree the system is exploitative. It should be reformed. You'll get no argument from me on that.

But right now, this is the system we have, and every one of them signed up voluntarily.

Not one of them was forced against their will to join college football.

 

And you won't find one post here from me ripping a Gophers player. Precisely because they aren't being paid. Every ounce of my criticism has been directed at the guy who is being paid millions. The guy paid millions to find, develop, and coach these unpaid players is the one that will get 100% of my criticism.

[Mr. Brooks]

Some of them. While it's fun to see the awarded scholarship moments in a spring ball ceremony, there are many different types of scholarship levels a college athlete receives. For instance, nearly no college baseball player at the U of M is on full-ride. Football has a lot less full-ride scholarships as well because Minnesota values hockey and basketball more. That stuff all does matter. Not every player is getting a free education, and none of them has any free education the moment that they're no longer able to play the game.

Are you really saying that scholarships are never honored when injury ends a college football career? Are you sure about that?

[PseudoSABR]

 

Are you really saying that scholarships are never honored when injury ends a college football career? Are you sure about that?

Some scholarships need to be renewed each year/semester.  I had a student "lose" his scholarship when he tore his ACL at Western Michigan.  Though it was before Fleck was there. But that's an anecdotal experience.

[mngopherguy]

 

The success of a D1 program doesn't hinge on the ability to send kids to the NFL. Winning games in the big ten has nothing to do with that. Great NFL players come from all the collegiate programs. Many, aren't winning national titles, and I'm not even advocating for that! I just want them to compete in the big ten.

If you have mediocre expectations, you only get mediocre results. Not all successful teams trade their soul for wins. Stanford does alright. Clemson does alright (and I'd say dabo is pj fleck on steroids). Again, these things off the field are great. Pretty much all teams try to incorporate that, fleck/minnesota aren't special.

 

My whole point is they ARE special.  Not all teams "incorporate" volunteerism or serving.  I've personally seen football players at the Children's hospital twice without coaches even being there.  They do far more of this than they ever did under Wacker, Mason, Brewster, Kill, Claeys, Gutey etc.  Again, I;ve been around the program since 88.  I don't know everything, but I know far more than Joe Shmo trolling on Facebook.

 

All college coaches are salesmen, how else do you recruit?  My son's JUCO coach sold my son to play for him.  It's been this way forever, Holtz was pretty loud in the 80's too.  

 

If the expectations were to be mediocre, they could have just kept Claeys, brought in Trestman, hired .  The fact that they went after one of the two hottest coaches at the time (Brohm being the other) suggests the exact opposite.  There are no mediocre expectations over time, the expectations to have 18 year olds with maybe one year of college workouts beating teams with mainly 21-22 year old's with 3-4 years of training is just being realistic.  It's laying the groundwork for a new program. Unlike the Twins, the Gophers actually want to win, they've just failed at it.  

[Badsmerf]

Ben, what evidence do you have that the gophers are not fully utilizing the 85 (!!!) scholarships available to them? I couldn't find anything, but they'd be fools not to. With 85 (!!!) scholarships, there aren't many kids there without fill rides. When I was an athlete at the u, even the backup punter had a full ride. It was a joke.

 

Gopherguy... first of all, I had to type your name out just now, and since I use Swype it was annoying. Next, I'm pretty sure Fleck took over a full team, so if he is only playing freshman that would be weird. He didn't even take over a bad team.

 

At this point, I'm skeptical. They second half of the year is a better barometer for the program than they first.

[biggentleben]

 

Are you really saying that scholarships are never honored when injury ends a college football career? Are you sure about that?

 

I did not say never. It happens for many, though. Depending on the school, depending on the player's entry to the University, depending on so many things. For instance, I was walking on, without scholarship, and when offered scholarship, before eye surgery that same week ended that, that scholarship would have been for the fall semester of that year only, renewable in the spring. When my surgery didn't heal right and football was no longer an option, there was nothing there for me. A couple coaches provided kind invites to games along with the team, but the team officially had nothing more to do with me once I had the surgery.

 

For most of those guys who are inspirational stories and get the t-shirt with their scholarship offer printed on it or other such things, they are also on a time-limited scholarship. Each scholarship also contains certain out clauses that allows the school to end the scholarship in the case of injury.

[biggentleben]

 

Ben, what evidence do you have that the gophers are not fully utilizing the 85 (!!!) scholarships available to them? I couldn't find anything, but they'd be fools not to. With 85 (!!!) scholarships, there aren't many kids there without fill rides. When I was an athlete at the u, even the backup punter had a full ride. It was a joke.

Gopherguy... first of all, I had to type your name out just now, and since I use Swype it was annoying. Next, I'm pretty sure Fleck took over a full team, so if he is only playing freshman that would be weird. He didn't even take over a bad team.

At this point, I'm skeptical. They second half of the year is a better barometer for the program than they first.

 

No one said they're not using their 85. However, there are 112 listed on their roster page currently.

[Vanimal46]

This is ugly...

[Badsmerf]

Yikes. So much for the start to their second half of the year. Not watching the game, but probably glad I'm not. Nebraska hasn't been as bad as their record would suggest... but that doesn't mean they should be up 28-0 in the first half.

[Mike Sixel]

Not even competitive with a winless team.

[Badsmerf]

Not dead yet.