Gophers Football

[Badsmerf]

This doesn't look like it should stick. They have a video of the sex with the girl, and she is not objecting to any of it. I don't think it's fair to hold football players to some kind of standard above the student population. It would be one thing if the girl was so wasted she couldn't talk or had she been passed out. It doesn't sound like this is the case.

[USAFChief]

Umm, I believe the dance team are two time defending National Champions. Let's not sell the U so short.

Odd that I wasn't aware of this.

[USAFChief]

This doesn't look like it should stick. They have a video of the sex with the girl, and she is not objecting to any of it. I don't think it's fair to hold football players to some kind of standard above the student population. It would be one thing if the girl was so wasted she couldn't talk or had she been passed out. It doesn't sound like this is the case.

The DA office declined criminal prosecution, months ago. This appears to stem from internal investigation and recommendation from the U's Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action office.

[Badsmerf]

Right... The problem is they obvious weren't found criminally liable, so why are they receiving a suspension? Because they had sex? I obviously don't know the details, but I find it troubling these players are seemingly being held to a higher standard than everyone else. I believe the official language they are going with is sexual misconduct. I don't agree with it and hope the players sue the university.

[Mr. Brooks]

Right... The problem is they obvious weren't found criminally liable, so why are they receiving a suspension? Because they had sex? I obviously don't know the details, but I find it troubling these players are seemingly being held to a higher standard than everyone else. I believe the official language they are going with is sexual misconduct. I don't agree with it and hope the players sue the university.

So you don't think a woman passes the point at which she's too drunk to consent to a line of 10 men until she's so drunk that she can't speak?

I'm sorry, 10 men and 1 drunk woman is not "sex".

[USAFChief]

Right... The problem is they obvious weren't found criminally liable, so why are they receiving a suspension? Because they had sex? I obviously don't know the details, but I find it troubling these players are seemingly being held to a higher standard than everyone else. I believe the official language they are going with is sexual misconduct. I don't agree with it and hope the players sue the university.

Information is hard to come by. But just because there weren't criminal charges doesn't mean there couldn't be violations of student standards. Cheating, for example, isn't criminal, but could get you kicked out of school.

 

It's possible the EOAA office acted irresponsibly. The timing is suspicious, and these sorts of extra-judicial offices with few boundaries and the presumption of impartiality are always susceptible to agendas or abuse of power.

 

But I'd need to see some evidence to buy that. For one thing, I'm sure the President, the AD and Claeys were all extremely reluctant to take this action, so my default position is, there's gotta be at least some evidence that warrants it.

 

We'll see. Whatever ends up the case, it's a damn shame.

[Badsmerf]

So you don't think a woman passes the point at which she's too drunk to consent to a line of 10 men until she's so drunk that she can't speak?

I'm sorry, 10 men and 1 drunk woman is not "sex".

I am not endorsing that. However, I am not going to tell an adult how many people they should be sleeping with, or judge them (not implying you are). I don't like the precedent this ruling shows. I'm sure there is more to the story and we will find out.

[kab21]

 

I am not endorsing that. However, I am not going to tell an adult how many people they should be sleeping with, or judge them (not implying you are). I don't like the precedent this ruling shows. I'm sure there is more to the story and we will find out.

 

No, these players are representing an organization. And that organization is a university. They can be held to a higher standard and that is not a bad precedent. There is nothing wrong with releasing all of these players from their scholarships and cutting them loose. 

 

From the sounds of it - they were videotaped in a 10 on 1 gangbang and that is completely not cool for the vast majority of parents and the young adults potentially attending the school.

The situation that is not a problem is if they are able to keep this kind of stupidity secret. I am certain that all kinds of stuff like this is going on but nobody knows about it.

[Badsmerf]

There is a video tape with no evidence of rape. Are you comfortable with the school telling players how they can have sex? I'm not. Where does it stop? What if it was gay sex omg? I don't care if a woman decides to have sex with the entire team, it's not my choice. The university didn't have to make this a big deal. Again, we most likely don't have all the details.

[Craig Arko]

Abolish the program and use the money for cancer research.

[USAFChief]

 

Abolish the program and use the money for cancer research.

Abolish the music program, too.  And the arts department while we're at it.   

[Craig Arko]

 

Abolish the music program, too.  And the arts department while we're at it.   

If and when a substantial number of participants in those programs are suspended for criminal activities, maybe.

 

They've already both taken pretty substantial budget hits. And those departments actually have decent things to offer.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Abolish the music program, too.  And the arts department while we're at it.   

 

Well, if football is education, then make it like classes and make the participants pay to be in them, like art and music.....if they aren't actually education, then maybe they should be abolished, so the U can be about education. We are the only nation that has college sports like this, and our education system isn't as good as many others.....might not be a coincidence. Priorities in many layers of the education system seem a bit off....

[USAFChief]

 

If and when a substantial number of participants in those programs are suspended for criminal activities, maybe.

 

They've already both taken pretty substantial budget hits. And those departments actually have decent things to offer.

I'm confident students in those programs have been suspended, we just don't know about it.

 

And unless I'm mistaken, most if not all of the athletic budget at the UofM is self generated.

 

Point being, "drop sports" is a pretty silly argument.  A pretty decent argument can be made that people and students get as much out of athletics as they do music, for example.

 

And I'm not arguing to drop music.

[Mike Sixel]

Stanford just cut the band, for exactly these disciplinary reasons. They still teach music, though.....because it is an education system.

[TheLeviathan]

 

 

And unless I'm mistaken, most if not all of the athletic budget at the UofM is self generated.

 

I'd be curious if anyone had information about this.  I did a quick search but everything was very shallow in what they presented.

 

This story is really crappy, I hope due process and justice is available for all involved.  Whatever that might mean for each individual involved.

[Squirrel]

 

Stanford just cut the band, for exactly these disciplinary reasons. They still teach music, though.....because it is an education system.

They didn't cut the band, they suspended it (and they suspended it before). And it was the marching band not the concert band ... the former being as much a social extra-curricular activity (such as a club) as well as a musical endeavor, and only exists along side football or other sporting events. While it's music, I wouldn't put it in the same category whatsoever as the orchestra or concert band. (And yes, this is way off topic ... but I think marching bands can be compared to football teams ... but other artistic ensembles I wouldn't say so, but we don't want to get into that.)

[Mike Sixel]

 

They didn't cut the band, they suspended it (and they suspended it before). And it was the marching band not the concert band ... the former being as much a social extra-curricular activity (such as a club) as well as a musical endeavor, and only exists along side football or other sporting events. While it's music, I wouldn't put it in the same category whatsoever as the orchestra or concert band. (And yes, this is way off topic ... but I think marching bands can be compared to football teams ... but other artistic ensembles I wouldn't say so, but we don't want to get into that.)

 

I tried to say that, but you said it better.....

[nicksaviking]

 

There is a video tape with no evidence of rape. Are you comfortable with the school telling players how they can have sex? I'm not. Where does it stop? What if it was gay sex omg? I don't care if a woman decides to have sex with the entire team, it's not my choice. The university didn't have to make this a big deal. Again, we most likely don't have all the details.

 

First, I'm guessing you have not seen this video.

 

Second, no video evidence of rape does not mean the absence of rape.

 

I'm not saying it wasn't all on the up and up, but you're making assumptions likely based on hearsay from parties with a vested interest in the outcome.

[Squirrel]

 

I tried to say that, but you said it better.....

Also ... ensembles for music majors IS educational and necessary and vital to that education. It is part of the music educational pursuit whether you become a teacher, administrator, performer, etc ... it is VITAL to the core of that education, and is often credited, so it is quite different from football in that regard. But I suppose musical ensembles could be equated to some types of music majors as playing football would be to some kind of a sports major? Sorry ... I'm taking this way off track now ... it's just not an easy or truly equivocal comparison.

[Mike Sixel]

Back to the team....I thought we were promised no more issues with this coaching staff....

 

So, they aren't good, and they have player issues....hmmm....

[Badsmerf]

First, I'm guessing you have not seen this video.

 

Second, no video evidence of rape does not mean the absence of rape.

 

I'm not saying it wasn't all on the up and up, but you're making assumptions likely based on hearsay from parties with a vested interest in the outcome.

I remain to believe in innocent until proven guilty. Does anyone actually believe a university organization has more credibility with these matters than the police? I haven't seen the video, the police have. They determined no foul play.

 

If you really want to play the card that it doesn't mean there was no rape, you are already assuming it happened. This decision by the university has made it into the national spotlight, and if the players sue... and win... They are going to look real bad. This program is a joke.

[nicksaviking]

 

I remain to believe in innocent until proven guilty. Does anyone actually believe a university organization has more credibility with these matters than the police? I haven't seen the video, the police have. They determined no foul play.

If you really want to play the card that it doesn't mean there was no rape, you are already assuming it happened. This decision by the university has made it into the national spotlight, and if the players sue... and win... They are going to look real bad. This program is a joke.

 

Just because the police didn't charge anyone doesn't mean no crime was committed. I'm not the one making assumptions, we don't know what happened, nor likely do the police, which means they CAN'T act. The university and the police don't have to have the same burden of proof standards nor should they. The school doesn't have to have proof beyond a reasonable doubt to flunk a kid for cheating on a test or to ban a guy from the women's dorms if he's suspected of stalking.

 

I'm not assuming anything happened and legally the police cannot either but the University can. Going to school there and partaking in their activities isn't a constitutional right, it's a privilege that can be revoked upon their discretion. If they think there is reasonable enough suspicion of improper conduct they have a right to act in the best interest of the community, the other students and their brand.

 

The university has bungled this and just about everything else, but they do not have to act with the same standards as law enforcement.

[TheLeviathan]

I wonder if this is going to tie back into the affirmative consent issue.  I appreciate that the school has remained tight lipped about the whats and the whys.

 

I worry it won't stay that way and what we find behind all this will be even uglier.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

They didn't cut the band, they suspended it (and they suspended it before). And it was the marching band not the concert band ... 

Why didn't the marching band simply refuse to yield?

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5ecvBaqHBk&t=280

[Mr. Brooks]

I remain to believe in innocent until proven guilty. Does anyone actually believe a university organization has more credibility with these matters than the police? I haven't seen the video, the police have. They determined no foul play.

 

If you really want to play the card that it doesn't mean there was no rape, you are already assuming it happened. This decision by the university has made it into the national spotlight, and if the players sue... and win... They are going to look real bad. This program is a joke.

The University (like many around the nation) has different standards for consent than the legal system does.

This applies to all students, not just athletes, like you attempt to claim in an earlier post.

Implied consent is not enough. There has to be affirmative consent. The affirmative consent also has to be ongoing. This means that the video, even if the beginning were missing, would be able to determine if consent was affirmative and ongoing.

Each new act, and each partner would need affirmative consent. The woman consenting initially, and then simply not protesting additional partners is not enough under the University policy.

 

There is nothing new or controversial about a University having different standards than the legal system.

At BYU, for example, students are not allowed ANY sexual contact.

[DaveW]

http://deadspin.com/report-minnesota-football-players-plan-to-boycott-bowl-1790167029?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebook&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

This is just a very sad story all around.

[Mr. Brooks]

http://deadspin.com/report-minnesota-football-players-plan-to-boycott-bowl-1790167029?utm_campaign=socialflow_deadspin_facebook&utm_source=deadspin_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow

 

This is just a very sad story all around.

Anyone who reads that article and concludes it wasn't a rape is flat out calling the victim a liar.

Any player who boycotts the bowl game to show support to rapists should have their scholarship yanked.

As a father, reading her quotes in that story were heartbreaking. (Not that you need to be a father to be disgusted by gang rape.)

[DaveW]

 

Anyone who reads that article and concludes it wasn't a rape is flat out calling the victim a liar.
Any player who boycotts the bowl game to show support to rapists should have their scholarship yanked.
As a father, reading her quotes in that story were heartbreaking. (Not that you need to be a father to be disgusted by gang rape.)

I don't think anything is "clear" to be honest.

[Mr. Brooks]

I don't think anything is "clear" to be honest.

Well I don't think I used that term, so I'm not sure why you put that in quotations.

My point is that I hadn't seen those quotes from the victim before.

I thought there might have been some grey area, like she was drunk and didn't remember consenting or something like that.

She says she begged them to stop, and they didn't, and even laughed at her attempts to stop it. That removes most of the grey area.

She is either lying, or it was rape.

I have no reason to think she is lying.