Article: Twins Transactions: Buxton Activated, Optioned to AAA

[tobi0040]

 

Call Robinson a "4th Of" all you want, but he has started in 40% of the last 15 games.

 

Well, I mean you have to keep his bat fresh. Even though he literally will pinch hit for nobody on this team, under any circumstance.

 

And if Rosario, Hicks, Santana, and Escobar all get injured in the same game, who will play CF?  You are not properly thinking through the risks here.

[roger]

Well, John,

 

Did you intend to stir up this hornet's nest when you wrote this post?  I for one both agree with you and feel for you.  Have a great day!

[Jham]

 

What has Shane Robinson done right this year? (Knuckleballs in blowouts don't count)

 

He's a back up.  He's played decently if unspectacularly in sporadic playing time.  I understand your roster frustrations.  I too think we  have better options.  But I don't get knocking a guy who hasn't really been part of the problem  If anything, he maybe overachieved, especially the month where we won games.

 

<1> The fact that he was called up, did a fine job in CF, and was learning on the job how to hit MLB breaking balls- his one and only impediment to MLB stardom.

 

<2> Last time he dominated in the minors...?  Gee, how about the month just before July?

 

<3> And I don't think anyone has argued that he's going to be better than Hunter right off the bat.  That's a "Look! Squirrel!" argument.

 

<4> The rehab has evidently gone fine, he's 5-12, stolen a base, played CF flawlessly... OH! and the Twins FO has determined he's plenty healthy enough to remove him from his rehab assignment.

 

I think you and I just evaluate players differently.  I loved the tools I saw when Bux was up.  But was not overly impressed with his routes and body control in the field or on the base paths.  His plate discipline was seriously lacking.  His reckless style of play lead to strike outs, dropped balls, and outs on the bases (and triples, outfield assists, and catches) and of course another injury.  Has he dominated for a month?  He's played well.  Has he dominated like the best player not in the Major Leagues?  Not for a couple years.  

 

Torii Hunter is not a red herring.  Posters are hard-core bashing the guy who has as much responsibility for the teams relative success as anyone.  IF you think that the season is over and it's time to focus on player development, fine.  But you don't have to slam Hunter in order to do so.  Some have taken this tact, others have chosen to take cheap shots at guys like Hunter, Nunez, and Robinson who have actually played up to expectations unlike many other guys on the team, some of which the same posters (myself included re: Arcia) are asking to be called up.  

 

 

 

[spinowner]

 

 

... while Hunter has been pretty much as advertised (decent pop, below average defense, good clubhouse leader) and has played his part, if the team falls properly out of contention over the next week or so (as seems likely) then he needs to accept his contribution for the rest of the year will be more mentor / less playing time.  It's more important that Buxton and Arcia get reps in September as a prelude to 2016 than it is to roll with the Hunter Retirement Roadshow.

 

This is exactly what I picture. Arcia and Buxton come up on Sept. 1. Hunter (and Robinson) see a drastic reduction in playing time while the youngsters participate in fall training. And Hunter (and Robinson) should not be offered a contract to play next season.

[HitInAPinch]

 

I've been comparing him to Eric Davis since the first few times I saw him play.  Through the roof talent on both sides of the ball, always getting hurt.

Willie McGee of St. Louis is another, although I don't really remember him getting hurt that often. 

 

Davis, McGee and Lyman Bostock are all that Buxton could become.  Just not Davis' power.  Maybe, but just can't envision that right now.  Buxton's immediate future should be a high protein diet and pumping some iron

[tobi0040]

 

This is exactly what I picture. Arcia and Buxton come up on Sept. 1. Hunter (and Robinson) see a drastic reduction in playing time while the youngsters participate in fall training. And Hunter (and Robinson) should not be offered a contract to play next season.

 

I think Arcia is done in MN.  Maybe he comes up after 9/1 to audition for other teams.  But I think Molitor finds his defense unacceptable and I think they view Sano as the DH moving forward (which means we keep Plouffe).  If they felt like Arcia was a potential answer at DH long term, I think they would have let Robinson go and invested more in his development.

[Otto von Ballpark]

This is exactly what I picture. Arcia and Buxton come up on Sept. 1. Hunter (and Robinson) see a drastic reduction in playing time while the youngsters participate in fall training. And Hunter (and Robinson) should not be offered a contract to play next season.

Isn't that what we expected last September with Suzuki and Pinto? If they are not willing to meaningfully reduce Hunter's playing time on August 10th, I doubt they will be September 1st.

[tobi0040]

 

Willie McGee of St. Louis is another, although I don't really remember him getting hurt that often. 

 

Davis, McGee and Lyman Bostock are all that Buxton could become.  Just not Davis' power.  Maybe, but just can't envision that right now.  Buxton's immediate future should be a high protein diet and pumping some iron

 

I think we are jumping the gun a tad here.   He is 21 and has basically had three injuries the last two years after playing as many games as he could in 2012 and 2013.

 

One involved him being beaned in the wrist.  He is not the first person to hurt his wrist sliding or colliding in the OF.  I would like the Twins to be cautious with him and him be more careful, but I am not going to draw parallels like this yet.

 

 

[big dog]

 

Per Cot's:

 

If a player’s optional assignment(s) to the minors total less than 20 days in one season, an option is not used.

 

I Think we'll see Buxton again in 19 days or so, after he's done paying for Perkins and Dozier's all-star bonuses.

Buxton got millions a few years ago and will be making millions again in a few more.  I don't think paying him minor-league money for 10 days is something to be upset about, personally.  I know at least 3 people with bigger financial problems, along with almost every other player in the minor leagues throughout baseball.

[jimmer]

 

Willie McGee of St. Louis is another, although I don't really remember him getting hurt that often. 

 

Davis, McGee and Lyman Bostock are all that Buxton could become.  Just not Davis' power.  Maybe, but just can't envision that right now.  Buxton's immediate future should be a high protein diet and pumping some iron 

 

I don't use McGee because he had no power to speak of. An average of 6 HR for every 162 games played. I think Buxton will have much more power.  But it's another interesting comparison.

Edited August 11, 2015 by jimmer

[Mike Sixel]

1. Playing in AAA has no less wear on his injury than in the majors. Saying that somehow he is less likely to get hurt here, or you can swing softer or something.....bunk.

 

2. Hunter is 39 or 40. He's not good. Since May, he's been AWFUL. There is no reason to argue Hunter is better than Buxton, now, or next year.

 

3. If your argument is that Buxton won't contribute right away, and that he needs time to adjust.....and you want him to be good next year, he should be doing his adjusting this year, imo.

 

4. September games are a bad judge of progress...since 1/3 to 1/2 are against AAA players.

 

5. It is super easy to get Buxton in the game 80% of the time. This is also not a valid reason fro him not to be up.

 

Seem to be a lot of people here think somehow it is stupid, or something, to think this is a bad idea. I'm happy to have that discussion, because I think it is obvious that he should be up now.

 

Also, judging him on 11 games? Ugh.

[Vanimal46]

If the argument to keep Buxton in AAA for the short term is to get him back up to speed, fine, I can live with that. 

 

If the argument to keep Buxton in AAA is because of his previous stats and not earning it, that's where I disagree. If we took a poll of all TD posters, the typical range we would see on wins this season would be between 75-85 wins. That's not going to be enough for the playoffs even on the high end of that scale. I would rather sacrifice a couple of wins this year by giving Buxton the at bats and MLB experience to hit the ground running in 2016. 

 

Otherwise what's the topic going to be going into next year? I can already see the articles in the Star Tribune now.... Buxton has less than 100 ABs in the MLB..... he's not ready to be the full-time starter. Someone equivalent to Jordan Schafer gets signed to handle the RF or CF position until early June.  

[Halsey Hall]

1. Playing in AAA has no less wear on his injury than in the majors. Saying that somehow he is less likely to get hurt here, or you can swing softer or something.....bunk.

 

That is bunk.  Playing in AAA will have more wear on his injury as he will be making more contact with the ball than he would with the Twins. 

[Loosey]

Perhaps it was pointed out on here already, I didn't read all 5 pages worth of comments.  But if Buxton is recalled after 10 days but before 20 days does that not count as an option and give back another option year (hopefully not needed) Also, that pretty much makes him eligible for a September Callup while reducing service time and avoiding an option year.  If this is correct, it's the smartest move the FO has made all year.

[Mike Sixel]

 

1. Playing in AAA has no less wear on his injury than in the majors. Saying that somehow he is less likely to get hurt here, or you can swing softer or something.....bunk.

 

That is bunk.  Playing in AAA will have more wear on his injury as he will be making more contact with the ball than he would with the Twins. 

 

Great line. Seriously large smile for this one........

[jimmer]

 

1. Playing in AAA has no less wear on his injury than in the majors. Saying that somehow he is less likely to get hurt here, or you can swing softer or something.....bunk.

 

2. Hunter is 39 or 40. He's not good. Since May, he's been AWFUL. There is no reason to argue Hunter is better than Buxton, now, or next year.

 

3. If your argument is that Buxton won't contribute right away, and that he needs time to adjust.....and you want him to be good next year, he should be doing his adjusting this year, imo.

 

4. September games are a bad judge of progress...since 1/3 to 1/2 are against AAA players.

 

5. It is super easy to get Buxton in the game 80% of the time. This is also not a valid reason fro him not to be up.

 

Seem to be a lot of people here think somehow it is stupid, or something, to think this is a bad idea. I'm happy to have that discussion, because I think it is obvious that he should be up now.

 

Also, judging him on 11 games? Ugh.

I would like to just point out that September play is different now than in the past.  It started changing when they adding playoff spots and now that they have another, more teams are keeping competitive teams playing deeper into the month.  I agree with almost all of your post, but I think there are much fewer teams throwing in the towel in September.

Edited August 11, 2015 by jimmer

[Mike Sixel]

 

I would like to just point out that September play is different now than in the past.  It started changing when they adding playoff spots and now that they have another, more teams are keeping competitive teams playing deeper into the month.  I agree with your almost all of your post, but I think there are much fewer teams throwing in the towel in September.

 

Good point......I'd have to look at the schedule, but good point.

 

OTOH, people are saying the Twins should call up x players for September.......so it is some teams.

[jimmer]

 

Good point......I'd have to look at the schedule, but good point.

 

OTOH, people are saying the Twins should call up x players for September.......so it is some teams.

I imagine most all teams will expand their rosters in September.  How much playing time some of these guys who get called up for a looksie will see will be dependent on how close they are for a playoff spot and/or whether or not they are better than the options on the roster before September 1 (but the team didn't want to call them up for whatever reason, usually service year reasons).

 

I hate the expanded roster rule myself.  They always talk about how the games are more important in September (not true, all games are equally important throughout the year) and yet September is when they decided to let teams field inferior clubs as teams are jockeying for a playoff run.

Edited August 11, 2015 by jimmer

[John Bonnes]

 

Per Cot's:

 

If a player’s optional assignment(s) to the minors total less than 20 days in one season, an option is not used.

 

I Think we'll see Buxton again in 19 days or so, after he's done paying for Perkins and Dozier's all-star bonuses.

 

Cool. Thanks. 

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Perhaps it was pointed out on here already, I didn't read all 5 pages worth of comments.  But if Buxton is recalled after 10 days but before 20 days does that not count as an option and give back another option year (hopefully not needed) Also, that pretty much makes him eligible for a September Callup while reducing service time and avoiding an option year.  If this is correct, it's the smartest move the FO has made all year.

It has been pointed out.  But I am not sure how smart it is.

 

Buxton was optioned on August 10th.  He will need to be recalled on or before August 29th now to avoid burning an option year in 2015.

 

Alternatively, a position player can have up to 20 days of rehab.  So Buxton could have stayed on the DL, and simply been activated any time he was ready between now and August 27th.

 

So either way, we lose the benefit of the September 1st roster expansion.  Optioning him on August 13th would have made more sense in that regard.

 

At best, we bought an extra two days before we will need to make a roster move to accommodate Buxton, but at the same time prevented us from recalling him before August 20th, barring an injury to someone he could logically replace on the MLB roster (presumably we wouldn't recall him if a catcher or infielder was injured).

[Otto von Ballpark]

My fear is that we plan to keep him in AAA much longer than most of us expect.

 

It wouldn't surprise me if they were preparing to option him when he got injured -- remember, he was initially recalled when Hicks got injured, and Hicks was only about 4 days away from being eligible to return when Buxton got hurt (and 9 days away from Hicks' actual return).  So to salvage service time savings, they optioned him basically as soon as they were allowed by the rules.

 

So far, it's the one explanation that make the most sense.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

One other thought on the option. If Buxton hurts himself again in Rochester while on rehab he would stay on the mlb roster and get paid/collect service time, possibly into next year if really serious. By optioning him the Twins do protect from another injury.

This is incorrect, as far as 2016 service time is concerned.  Disabled lists and optional assignments cease to exist in the offseason.  Any injured players on the 40-man roster will have to go on the MLB disabled list in the spring, and thus will accrue MLB salary and service time, regardless of when and where the injury was suffered in 2015.

 

So at best, they buffer themselves from ~50 days of MLB service time if he injured himself again today. (Although if it was a re-injury of the same thumb, Buxton would probably have grounds for a grievance that he wasn't fully healed and shouldn't have been optioned, and could probably get awarded the lost service time regardless.)

[jorgenswest]

 

ML service time is not credited during any period or periods of optional assignment totaling 20 days or more during a single season.

 

They might want to make sure he spends 20 days on assignment. 

 

Here are the considerations.

• Use an option this year and lose that possibility in 2018 by going 20 days
• Reduce service time by 20 days and the possibility of super 2 status goes from small to 0.

The likelihood of needing an option in 2018 and super 2 status are both small. Small enough that he should be called up immediately if Rosario or Hicks are injured, Meanwhile the Twins were wise to stop the service time clock while he comes back from injury and avoid any possibility of super 2.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

They might want to make sure he spends 20 days on assignment. 

 

Here are the considerations.

• Use an option this year and lose that possibility in 2018 by going 20 days
• Reduce service time by 20 days and the possibility of super 2 status goes from small to 0.

The likelihood of needing an option in 2018 and super 2 status are both small. Small enough that he should be called up immediately if Rosario or Hicks are injured, Meanwhile the Twins were wise to stop the service time clock while he comes back from injury and avoid any possibility of super 2.

Buxton was recalled on June 14.  From there, through the end of the season on Oct. 4, is 113 days.  The Super 2 cutoff has never been below 122 days.  This year's projected cutoff was 140 days.  There was already basically zero percent chance of Buxton qualifying for Super 2.

 

Correa was called up 6 days before Buxton.  Lindor was called up the same day.  Pretty sure those teams weren't accepting of a "small" chance their players would be Super 2 eligible.

[drjim]

 

This is incorrect, as far as 2016 service time is concerned.  Disabled lists and optional assignments cease to exist in the offseason.  Any injured players on the 40-man roster will have to go on the MLB disabled list in the spring, and thus will accrue MLB salary and service time, regardless of when and where the injury was suffered in 2015.

 

So at best, they buffer themselves from ~50 days of MLB service time if he injured himself again today. (Although if it was a re-injury of the same thumb, Buxton would probably have grounds for a grievance that he wasn't fully healed and shouldn't have been optioned, and could probably get awarded the lost service time regardless.)

 

Are you sure, I thought guys injured while optioned stay on milb injury lists.

 

If someone is injured in spring training before being optioned, they would remain on the mlb disabled list, which is why the 40 man guys who aren't going to make the 25 man get moved out so quickly.

[John Bonnes]

Wow. 108 comments by the time I get here after my early morning meetings. And mods, I am sorry that I've created so much work for you.

 

There's way too much to address on this. There's a lot of anger here. My probably overgeneralized take is that a frustrating trade deadline combined with a more frustrating slump has people wanting the team to give up, so they can give up and not emotionally invest in what looks like an unhappy ending.  

 

To the issue: I only see three ways that Buxton should be on this roster:

 

1) He replaces Shane Robinson in the 4th outfielder role. I can't believe that's what people want.

 

2) He is "mixed in" with everyone, taking a few at-bats from everyone and slightly more from Hunter. I don't have a great reason not to do this, other than we're messing around with a bunch of guys that seem to be on the right track, and I don't see a compelling reason to do that. But this also doesn't seem to by the gist of the comments. 

 

3) He takes Hunter's job. This seems to be the primary argument, and I think I addressed it in earlier comments, but I'll summarize it like this:

 

This is a position that is so extreme as to be nearly detached from reality. I'm open to counter examples. If you can find any evidence that any other of the 29 management teams, from any year, who

 

1) finds themselves suddenly competitive, still a handful of games from a Wild Card spot, past the trade deadline, a game under .500 and experiencing a renewed interest in the team after four years of abysmal results...

 

2) would bench a $10 million free agent who has been a productive player and who also is a crowd favorite and AND as recently as Friday night was celebrated as a game-winning, team-rallying hero...

 

3) just so they can push a 21-year-old coming off a thumb injury who had previously skipped AAA and gone directly to the majors (and didn't have immediate success)...

 

...I'm completely open to any comparisons you can find.I mean that is never going to happen. Not here, not now, not anywhere at any time. 

 

I'm open to new ideas, but to me, this suggestion is fringe; it's borderline untethered. I don't mean that as an insult, though I can see how it would read that way. We can all get carried away as fans. Instead I mean it as a call to maybe reexamine where your perceptional base is. What paradigms are you viewing the world through that makes this sound reasonable? Is anger at someone making all moves like this be viewed as terrible?

 

 

 

[Otto von Ballpark]

Also, while needlessly burning an option year would be dumb, it's not my primary concern.  I'm more concerned with the implication that he's going to spend more than 20 days in AAA now, and thus not get a serious MLB look before the end of the 2015 season.  Which would almost force us to pursue or retain a FA outfielder (Hunter again?) to be Plan A entering 2016.

[jorgenswest]

 

Buxton was recalled on June 14.  From there, through the end of the season on Oct. 4, is 113 days.  The Super 2 cutoff has never been below 122 days.  This year's projected cutoff was 140 days.  There was already basically zero percent chance of Buxton qualifying for Super 2.

 

Correa was called up 6 days before Buxton.  Lindor was called up the same day.  Pretty sure those teams weren't accepting of a "small" chance their players would be Super 2 eligible.

Isn't the 2.140 date related to the group that will earn it following this year? For example, Arcia was 1.132 at the start of the season and was likely to miss the cutoff bu projection. I don't think they would have near enough data to make a projection on this year's group. 

 

There has only been a handful of years since the super 2 group size increased. There will be years where that number is below 122. 

[Mike Sixel]

The cubs just sent Starlin Castro to the minors, after signing a $60MM deal, to call up a rookie.

 

Ryan should make personnel decisions based on people cheering for Hunter winning 1 game, really?

 

You don't think Buxton excites fans?

Edited August 11, 2015 by mike wants wins

[RichardMcBeef]

Mr. Conservative (Terry Ryan) does something conservative and people are surprised?