GOP Debate

[Squirrel]

 

I see 4 groups of winners. That the top 1% gained more than the rest, what is so damned abonimable about that?

yes, really. I mean, sheesh, let them eat cake.

[Willihammer]

 

During that time, the one income household basically went the way of the dodo. It's hard to call it a "win" in the face of that happening. Two incomes are now the standard, yet we see a minimal increase in household income for the majority of people.

That does explain a lot of the rise in the top quintiles, less among the bottom ones.

 

And again, these are new jobs. More people joining the workforce, which a rising min. wage will hamper.

 

The better approach is to provide tax credits and low interests loans and the like to lower incomes people, costs which can be deferred by bonding and borrowing.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

The better approach is to provide tax credits and low interests loans and the like to lower incomes people, costs which can be deferred by bonding and borrowing.

I just can't get behind that... If taxes are levied, I believe they should be use taxes as often as possible. I don't believe in punting people to government assistance as a first course of action.

 

I'm not sure why you feel raising the minimum wage is going to destroy jobs... There are plenty of countries - most countries you'd feel are strong economically - that have a considerably higher minimum wage than America and seem to do just fine.

 

I think the $15/hr minimum wage movement is borderline laughable... But pushing the minimum wage more toward a living - albeit meager living - wage around $12/hr is a goal we should all get behind. If someone is working, the tax base should not need to assist them with basic necessities (barring special circumstances). Right now, that is all too frequently the case.

[Willihammer]

 

yes, really. I mean, sheesh, let them eat cake.

Do you really think the situation of ordinary Americans in 2015 is analogous to the peasants in absolutist France in 1700s? If so, why?

[Squirrel]

 

Do you really think the situation of ordinary Americans in 2015 is analogous to the peasants in absolutist France in 1700s? If so, why?

Because it is getting to the point … in the graph Brock gave … where the top 1% is getting more and more of the pie while the rest, less and less. Whether or not you fix this through a boost in min. wage and/or other means, it will lead to revolt. We are already seeing that in communities across the country. Those with the least truly have no hope of life getting better. I've heard so many people say 'They just need to pull themselves up by their boot straps,' but if they have no boot straps, then what? I'm not advocating a system where you work hard and earn a ton only to give it all away, but something has to be done to make those with the least at least able to climb. What we are seeing now is a system that doesn't even allow that.

[Brock Beauchamp]

This is pretty much all you need to know about "income growth" in America:

 

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/Screen%20Shot%202013-09-30%20at%202.17.56%20PM.png

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/10/how-americas-marriage-crisis-makes-income-inequality-so-much-worse/280056/

 

Prepare to wince at the most cringe-inducing line of the article:

 

 

 

The typical family with a stay-at-home wife/mom has seen incomes grow only 1 percent, after inflation, since 1980.

 

The middle class has been duped into thinking it's doing better but in reality, it's really only working more. Look at the first 1/3rd of that graph and then the following 2/3rds... If that doesn't depress you, I don't know what will.

[Willihammer]

 

 

I just can't get behind that... If taxes are levied, I believe they should be use taxes as often as possible. I don't believe in punting people to government assistance as a first course of action.

 

I'm not sure why you feel raising the minimum wage is going to destroy jobs... There are plenty of countries - most countries you'd feel are strong economically - that have a considerably higher minimum wage than America and seem to do just fine.

 

I think the $15/hr minimum wage movement is borderline laughable... But pushing the minimum wage more toward a living - albeit meager living - wage around $12/hr is a goal we should all get behind. If someone is working, the tax base should not need to assist them to live (barring special circumstances). Right now, that is all too frequently the case.

Well, I know GDP is lousy in Europe where labor policies in Greece and other countries are very liberal. I won't pretend those policies are the only cause of the problem, I'm sure its a lot more complicated than that though.

 

In general its unwise to pay expense which can be deferred, esp. at low interest. Raise taxes on the rich or raising the min. wage are costs which would be payable immediately but over the long term hamper growth.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Well, I know GDP is lousy in Europe where labor policies in Greece and other countries are very liberal. I won't pretend those policies are the only cause of the problem, I'm sure its a lot more complicated than that though.

Nobody - and I literally mean nobody - is trying to emulate Greece.

 

Germany, on the other hand... Or even Australia... Or maybe even the UK...

[Willihammer]

 

Because it is getting to the point … in the graph Brock gave … where the top 1% is getting more and more of the pie while the rest, less and less. Whether or not you fix this through a boost in min. wage and/or other means, it will lead to revolt. We are already seeing that in communities across the country. Those with the least truly have no hope of life getting better. I've heard so many people say 'They just need to pull themselves up by their boot straps,' but if they have no boot straps, then what? I'm not advocating a system where you work hard and earn a ton only to give it all away, but something has to be done to make those with the least at least able to climb. What we are seeing now is a system that doesn't even allow that.

This is an extreme viewpoint, I'm not sure how to even respond. Comparing the situation of ordinary Americans in 2015 to that of ordinary French in 18th century absolutist France is a disservice to the French.

 

Honestly, we have people breaking into the country illegally to enjoy the opportunities here. I don't know what more needs to be said than that, really.

[Craig Arko]

Looks like Thailand is doing a good job of walking the tightrope.

 

http://asiafoundation.org/in-asia/2013/01/30/thailand-adopts-nationwide-minimum-wage-policy-amid-controversy/

 

Good food, too. Hmmm....

[Willihammer]

 

 

This is pretty much all you need to know about "income growth" in America:

 

http://cdn.theatlantic.com/assets/media/img/posts/Screen%20Shot%202013-09-30%20at%202.17.56%20PM.png

 

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/10/how-americas-marriage-crisis-makes-income-inequality-so-much-worse/280056/

 

Prepare to wince at the most cringe-inducing line of the article:

 

 

 

 

The middle class has been duped into thinking it's doing better but in reality, it's really only working more. Look at the first 1/3rd of that graph and then the following 2/3rds... If that doesn't depress you, I don't know what will.

There are two things at issue here. One is the real wage of single-parent households, which has grown. Alebeit 1%, but that is growth. Secondly is the absolute picture of additional jobs, which has raised income a further 29% amongst those households. Overall that is a big win.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Honestly, we have people breaking into the country illegally to enjoy the opportunities here. I don't know what more needs to be said than that, really.

"Mexico is a truly terrible place to live and that in no way supports an argument that America is fantastic" is a good place to start.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

There are two things at issue here. One is the real wage of single-parent households, which has grown. Alebeit 1%, but that is growth. Secondly is the absolute picture of additional jobs, which has raised income a further 29% amongst those households. Overall that is a big win.

1% growth is not actual growth. You're kinda grasping at straws there, Willihammer.

 

As for 29% jobs, well... The more people work, the more they need services and those "jobs" are often at the bottom of the scale. We eat out more because we don't have time to cook. We hire more maids because we don't have time to clean. We consume more gasoline, forcing more gas stations to be built and manned, because more people need to drive to work. Continue ad nauseum.

 

Again, it all loops back to the fact that we're working more, not making more money, and creating an artificial sense of accomplishment through driving down those below us with ****ty jobs to support our ****ty lifestyles. The middle class feels like it's thriving because we've exported jobs (cheaper products!) and beat down the lower end of labor (cheaper services!). We haven't actually grown as a country... Well, the vasty majority of us haven't, anyway.

[Willihammer]

 

"Mexico is a truly terrible place to live and that in no way supports an argument that America is fantastic" is a good place to start.

Just stopping here to refuel on their way to Canada I'm sure. BTW its not just Mexicans.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Just stopping here to refuel on their way to Canada I'm sure. BTW its not just Mexicans.

I lived in Southern California for 17 years. I'm fully aware not all immigrants are from Mexico. It was meant to illustrate a point and it's a valid one. The fact that America is better than Mexico or (fill in name of random country here) does not mean we can't be better than we are today.

[Willihammer]

Brock you keep citing facts and then arriving at non-sensical conclusions. 1% growth after accounting for inflation, yes? That's real growth! Could be better, but the point stands.

 

And what do you want, more jobs or less jobs? It amazes me how the left moans about corporations on the one hand, then when a plant shuts down or leaves town, they moan they don't have jobs. Well, if you decide you don't want jobs, then by all means prop up wages artificially and increase tax expenses on companies. Those jobs will go away quickly enough!

[Willihammer]

 

 

I lived in Southern California for 17 years. I'm fully aware not all immigrants are from Mexico. It was meant to illustrate a point and it's a valid one. The fact that America is better than Mexico or (fill in name of random country here) does not mean we can't be better than we are today.

First of all, I never said America is fantastic, that's a bit of a strawman. I was refuting this persistent idea that its somehow analogous to absolutist France which is clearly is not. America has plenty of room to improve. Its still a lot better than most alternatives.

[drjim]

 

Except that it has worked pretty well in places like Australia, a country with a high minimum wage ($16.88/hr), included benefits, and retains a relatively low unemployment rate (6.3%). That unemployment rate is just 0.8% higher than the US, which has some horrendous unemployment rate accounting practices. The real unemployment rates are probably similar.

 

People still need things and need services and businesses will have to provide those services if they want to keep the doors open.

 

The "raised prices" argument is a red herring. Yes, companies will raise prices. That's the point. But those prices will be distributed as a use tax to that company's customer base, not the entire taxpayer base through self-subsidies.

 

I can't wrap my head around the argument "yes, it's okay for Wal-Mart to pay its employees so little they qualify for taxpayer assistance".

 

Show of hands, please. Who here enjoys helping corporations they don't support by aiding their employees with taxpayer dollars?

 

A couple things I want to add to this:

 

1. Prices are not going to rise as much as people are leading us to believe for two reasons. First, labor costs constitute a smaller and smaller portion of business costs each year, so an increase is not going to jump the price by the same percent, not even close. Second, there is still a price point that people are willing to pay for their goods. It might squeeze out some certain established businesses, but will reward businesses that are flexible and innovative.

 

2. It will not impact employment rates and might even improve the labor pool. People are still needed to provide the services that currently are in the minimum wage zone, those aren't going away. And increases those wages will attract people that are quality but are otherwise sitting out of the labor market, while also decreasing worker turnover.

 

3. The final thought I have, and this is more intuition than empirical, is that an increase in minimum wage will be a huge positive for economic activity. An increase in money for people on the lower ends of the economic system gets spent at a much higher rate than an increase in money for people at the top. More money leads to more spending leads to more demand leads to more businesses meeting that demand leads to more jobs. It is a very positive cycle. More money in the hands of the wealthiest goes into more idle holdings, leading to lesser demand than would be positive.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Brock you keep citing facts and then arriving at non-sensical conclusions. 1% growth after accounting for inflation, yes? That's real growth! Could be better, but the point stands.

You're hanging your hat on a literal 0.03% yearly growth number over a 30 year period, Willihammer.

 

I'm not the one arriving at non-sensical conclusions. 1% growth over a 30 year period is, for all intents and purposes, zero growth.

 

Again, 0.03% growth. One-thirtieth of a percentage point.

 

Let's say Brian Dozier OPSes .839 this season. In 2016, he OPSes .842. Using your argument, that'd be explosive growth of a magnitude many times larger than what you're arguing here.

[TheLeviathan]

Nobody - and I literally mean nobody - is trying to emulate Greece.

 

Germany, on the other hand... Or even Australia... Or maybe even the UK...

It's worthwhile to point out in many of these countries they have a much different education system, particularly higher education.

 

The wage issue is further compounded here by the bizarre American belief of sending everyone to college. People are working more for less because we have artificially created so much job market competition at the price of high debt and limited college effectiveness. Just think how much money businesses now dump into doing the training vocational and academic colleges used to do.

 

The American left wants a very weird combo of America, Germany, and Greece that just doesn't work. The right wants Corporatism. We need to blow the whole damn thing up and restart.

[Shane Wahl]

 

1% growth is not actual growth. You're kinda grasping at straws there, Willihammer.

 

As for 29% jobs, well... The more people work, the more they need services and those "jobs" are often at the bottom of the scale. We eat out more because we don't have time to cook. We hire more maids because we don't have time to clean. We consume more gasoline, forcing more gas stations to be built and manned, because more people need to drive to work. Continue ad nauseum.

 

Again, it all loops back to the fact that we're working more, not making more money, and creating an artificial sense of accomplishment through driving down those below us with ****ty jobs to support our ****ty lifestyles. The middle class feels like it's thriving because we've exported jobs (cheaper products!) and beat down the lower end of labor (cheaper services!). We haven't actually grown as a country... Well, the vasty majority of us haven't, anyway.

 

Excellent post!

[Shane Wahl]

Not checking to see if anyone posted this here yet:

 

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/scott-santens/minimum-wages-vs-universal-basic-income_b_7957850.html

 

 

Perhaps this ends up being a better approach?

[kab21]

Just for clarification I don't have a problem with having a minimum wage.  I don't have a problem with raising the minimum wage by $1-2/hr which would put it on par with many of these progressive countries that are mentioned (not Australia of course unless of course you look at PPP).  I am against this ridiculous $15/hr min wage movement.  This is absolutely ridiculous. All it says to me is that 'I don't have any marketable skills but I want to be paid really well'.  I expect that to infuriate some.

 

But instead of raising the minimum wage I would first figure why on earth someone making 7.25/hr is losing nearly $1/hr in taxes and other deductions.  Raise the income level that taxes are taken out to above the min wage level and waive the SS deduction for lowest income earners.  This combined with some progress in the ACA is fairly good recent progress.  Hopefully the democrats and any moderates can also make progress with more affordable higher education and training programs. 

 

Of note is that if you use PPP instead of raw numbers then the numbers level out more.  Australia PPP min wage is closer to $10/hr.  When looked at his way the gap is much smaller than people are making it out to be. 

[Willihammer]

 

 

You're hanging your hat on a literal 0.03% yearly growth number over a 30 year period, Willihammer.

 

I'm not the one arriving at non-sensical conclusions. 1% growth over a 30 year period is, for all intents and purposes, zero growth.

 

Again, 0.03% growth. One-thirtieth of a percentage point.

 

Let's say Brian Dozier OPSes .839 this season. In 2016, he OPSes .842. Using your argument, that'd be explosive growth of a magnitude many times larger than what you're arguing here.

Fair enough. Wages after inflation for single parent households are at zero growth. There are tax incentives, FHA loans, FAFSA loans and assistance programs that enter the picture at that point and change the final picture though. I know you said that its preposterous anyone be paid so low they qualify for government assistance, I disagree. I can get behind measures like what Kab is suggesting that look at how to improve the real spending power of lower income people by piling on more tax breaks and taking a longer view on things, and less short-sighted, populist proposals like a min. wage hike.

[mikecgrimes]

Here's the problem cooperation are and always will be profit maximizers (not a bad thing). Change the rules of the game and they will play differently. A large # of these employees have no chance if the wage is increased at more then inflationary levels. Beyond that I want our 16 and 17 year olds of average to slightly below average potential to get and keep that first job. I really think this issue is all about pandering. If there is a perfect minimum wage that would benefit everyone then vote it into law and tie it to inflation.

[PseudoSABR]

 

You're really chasing your tail with the minimum wage. The notion that corporations will keep the same number of employees, pay them all a higher wage, and not raise prices (thereby reducing the real wages) is the sort of naive liberal idea that has me wishing the GOP were a viable alternative. Corporations are never going to just shift profits to workers while owners and shareholders just eat the costs. And this is coming from someone who works a min. wage (2nd) job btw.

The notion that we should just accept what owners and shareholders dictate reminds me of something I learned in college once.   I say raise prices, and let these owners get out of the business if they won't eat the cost and the rest of us find someone who will do the work at a nonmonopoly price.  Isn't that how the market should work?

 

[kab21]

 

The notion that we should just accept what owners and shareholders dictate reminds me of something I learned in college once.   I say raise prices, and let these owners get out of the business if they won't eat the cost and the rest of us find someone who will do the work at a nonmonopoly price.  Isn't that how the market should work?

I think this would affect small businesses more than corporations but perhaps that is what you want.  Corporations would likely invest in more automation and hire fewer people.  Small businesses don't have that luxury.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I think this would affect small businesses more than corporations but perhaps that is what you want.  Corporations would likely invest in more automation and hire fewer people.  Small businesses don't have that luxury.

If small businesses need to raise prices to maintain their desired profitability rather than absorb the losses they should do so.  Minimum wage workers are 100% liquid, so whatever the minimum is raised by would go right into the whole economy, enabling the market to absorb a price increase.   That said, whatever the minimum wage should be, it should be implemented small increases over a period of time to enable businesses to survive the wage increase.

 

There should be NO emphasis to keep wages low so ANY business owners can maintain their desired level of profitability, nor should the taxpayers subsidize a business's profitability by government assistance programs to their underpaid workers.  If such owners want to get out of the business, let them. The magic market force should  supply new owners to develop business models that can sustain businesses at whatever wage.  Unless we don't really believe in the magic market force...

[Badsmerf]

I don't see how this would impact small businesses more than corporations. Corporations are the ones that employ thousands of minimum employees per company. Wage increases for small businesses will impact them, but minor price increases would result counter that.

 

I never thought about minimum wage in this might Brock. I feel enlightened about it. Why do we allow these businesses to pad their pocketbook while the taxpayers help their employees survive? That notion is completely asinine. Why do people continue to stick up for the people that care nothing about them?

[DaveW]

I was in a McDonalds last week for the first time in years seemingly, they had an ad up saying "management positions being hired now, make 26k-52k a year"

 

I can't even imagine how a person could live on that, especially with a family, and that doesn't even go into the fact that the non managers are making half of that at 13k-16k a year or so on minimum wage.

 

$15 is the bare minimum it should be raised to. Also, 2 year schools should be free for qualified people "low to middle income" higher income can go for a small fee.