The non-believers Journey, from Arian Foster

[jimmer]

 

  On 8/25/2015 at 9:14 PM, drjim said:

I also think the claim that much of the bad throughout history was done in the name of religion really undersells the impact of economics and straight power politics.

Religion was certainly used to whip up people into a frenzy to go fight and die for a sovereign but I'm extremely skeptical that rulers (with some exceptions) cared all that much about it.

Might be why I put a caveat in my statement, 'Anyway, throughout history, a huge chunk of the very worst things done were done in the name of religion, or at least using religion as an excuse.'

[formerly33]

 

  On 8/25/2015 at 4:58 AM, jimmer said:

And, really, if you need to believe in a deity (and I imagine his/her eternal wrath) to make you act moral, have to wonder how moral you really are to begin with.

I never intended to post in this thread because I can't stand forcing religion on anybody, especially in a purely atheist discussion, but I thought your comment warranted a response. I am in no way trying to be disruptive or disrespectful and hope that I do not come across that way. I loath religious discussions because it's all about people taking sides on what is possibly the most personal subject out there, and invariably people start slandering other people and/or their beliefs, but I'm going to try to avoid that.

 

To get to the point, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I think that either I am completely misunderstanding what you are trying to say or else your comment was one of ignorance, for lack of a better word. Either way, I'm just posting this for the sake of clarification. I have a lot of respect for atheists who accept the fact that there's freedom of religion in our country, and that means the freedom to worship or not worship. Now, I don't have so much respect for my grandpa who pulled a gun on my then non-believing dad for the innocent act of picking up a Bible, but then again, my feelings would be no different if he had been religious and reacted the same way had my dad tossed it into a fire. This thread is all about believers respecting non-believers' views, and while I agree that that is important, I think that we need to have a compromise here.

 

Being religious (and I speak only for myself, not all religious groups/people in general) has nothing to do with the need to believe in a deity to keep myself on the straight and narrow. I'm not going to even try to explain what I believe since I'm sure you're fairly acquainted with the idea of "born again," and anyway, if I did try, it would only come across as though I were trying to convert you. I am not. All I want is for you to understand that we are not the way you were referring to us as; being religious - or I should rather say believers, as the term "religious" seems to refer more to a pharisaical attitude than anything else - does not make us inherently immoral people any more than being atheist doesn't make you inherently immoral.

 

I hope that nobody minds my saying this, especially since it was a pain in the rear to get it all worded out in the least offensive way I could imagine.  I am not attempting to hijack the thread, nor do I want this to turn into a religious argument. I respect your beliefs, and I just want you to respect mine, too.

 

And by the way, if I spelled any words wrong, please forgive me ... my internet's really glitchy and my spell check went on strike.

 

Okay, I checked a few in the dictionary.

[Craig Arko]

Speaking for nobody but myself, my foremost action is to adopt Bronowski's Principle of Tolerance.

 

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S030698770700504X

 

And I call 'em as I see 'em.

[jimmer]

 

  On 8/25/2015 at 11:59 PM, always33 said:

I never intended to post in this thread because I can't stand forcing religion on anybody, especially in a purely atheist discussion, but I thought your comment warranted a response. I am in no way trying to be disruptive or disrespectful and hope that I do not come across that way. I loath religious discussions because it's all about people taking sides on what is possibly the most personal subject out there, and invariably people start slandering other people and/or their beliefs, but I'm going to try to avoid that.

 

To get to the point, while you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I think that either I am completely misunderstanding what you are trying to say or else your comment was one of ignorance, for lack of a better word. Either way, I'm just posting this for the sake of clarification. I have a lot of respect for atheists who accept the fact that there's freedom of religion in our country, and that means the freedom to worship or not worship. Now, I don't have so much respect for my grandpa who pulled a gun on my then non-believing dad for the innocent act of picking up a Bible, but then again, my feelings would be no different if he had been religious and reacted the same way had my dad tossed it into a fire. This thread is all about believers respecting non-believers' views, and while I agree that that is important, I think that we need to have a compromise here.

 

Being religious (and I speak only for myself, not all religious groups/people in general) has nothing to do with the need to believe in a deity to keep myself on the straight and narrow. I'm not going to even try to explain what I believe since I'm sure you're fairly acquainted with the idea of "born again," and anyway, if I did try, it would only come across as though I were trying to convert you. I am not. All I want is for you to understand that we are not the way you were referring to us as; being religious - or I should rather say believers, as the term "religious" seems to refer more to a pharisaical attitude than anything else - does not make us inherently immoral people any more than being atheist doesn't make you inherently immoral.

 

I hope that nobody minds my saying this, especially since it was a pain in the rear to get it all worded out in the least offensive way I could imagine.  I am not attempting to hijack the thread, nor do I want this to turn into a religious argument. I respect your beliefs, and I just want you to respect mine, too.

 

And by the way, if I spelled any words wrong, please forgive me ... my internet's really glitchy and my spell check went on strike.

 

Okay, I checked a few in the dictionary.

I think if you read the story that was linked (the one I responded to) and then read my post again while keeping in mind what was written in the story, it'll make much more sense and the offense you took will likely disappear.  Basically, I never actually said that all religious people needed to believe in a deity in order to be moral. I said IF there are people who NEED to believe in a deity in order to keep themselves moral, one has to wonder how moral they actually are.  That is not the same thing.

 

And, BTW, I was born and raised in a very religious household.  I served as an altar person until high school. My Mom and Brother are very religious.  Although I am not religious anymore, I'm a very live and let live kind of guy and would never belittle people of faith and certainly wouldn't put everyone in the same category.  Again, please read the story I responded to, and then my post, it should be clearer.

 

If there are any more questions/comments for me after reading the story linked and then my response again, feel free to PM me and no need to try and filter it. I'm fine with a direct approach.

 

Here's the link to the story I was responding to:

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2015/08/10/431205042/should-we-distrust-atheists

 

[formerly33]

 

  On 8/26/2015 at 1:10 AM, jimmer said:

I think if you read the story that was linked (the one I responded to) and then read my post again while keeping in mind what was written in the story, it'll make much more sense and the offense you took will likely disappear.  Basically, I never actually said that all religious people needed to believe in a deity in order to be moral. I said IF there are people who NEED to believe in a deity in order to keep themselves moral, one has to wonder how moral they actually are.  That is not the same thing.

 

And, BTW, I was born and raised in a very religious household.  I served as an altar person until high school. My Mom and Brother are very religious.  Although I am not religious anymore, I'm a very live and let live kind of guy and would never belittle people of faith and certainly wouldn't put everyone in the same category.  Again, please read the story I responded to, and then my post, it should be clearer.

 

If there are any more questions/comments for me after reading the story linked and then my response again, feel free to PM me and no need to try and filter it. I'm fine with a direct approach.

 

Here's the link to the story I was responding to:

 

http://www.npr.org/sections/13.7/2015/08/10/431205042/should-we-distrust-atheists

Oh, I'm sorry for not taking in the big picture before throwing in my two cents. I had a feeling that it was just a misunderstanding on my part, but I didn't go back and check that out. Duh ... gotta think even harder before littering the internet with my crap.

[Bark's Lounge]

I feel reluctant to put this out there. It is pretty personal, but I think it is relevant to the topic and might give one an insight into a person's life that is different or similar to yours.

 

I am a non-believer in religion. I come from a religious Lutheran Family, it was not strict by any means, but it was an embarrassment to my grandma if your were not confirmed - she had her ticks and clicks, in hindsight, it is no big deal.

 

I remember the moment, religion became a certain divorce situation for me. I was a nimrod 13 year old, who's parent's were awful and neglectful of the job they did and I was at my grandparents after confirmation class. I told my grandma, about what was going on, that life sucked, and it was not bearable anymore. My grandma told me this: "Put it in the Lord's hands". Being respectful, I did not laugh or lash out in anger, but that was the precursor for me to find my beliefs and I am grateful for that.

 

I was 17 when I tossed all that stuff into the garbage. The stories, to me are unrealistic fantasies, stories that don't really have an uplifting quality. It did not fit into the puzzle of life I had devised for myself.

 

Roughly ten years later: My brother died from a fall off a cliff watching 4th of July fireworks in 2003. He was pulling a prank and it went wrong to the worst degree. As it would be for anyone that was a shock to my system and killed a part of me.

 

I was 11 years older than my brother, and we have a sister who I am 9 years older than. In the late 90's I moved into my mother's house because I though those kids needed a good influence, which they were getting the opposite of because of some of the characters that would frequent that house. I worked my ass off when I moved in there to win those kids over. I failed with my sister, she was already beyond approach, but my brother was ripe for the taking. I never imposed my viewpoints on him, he was actually a lot more intelligent than I am and we had a lot of fantastic creative time, he looked up to me in a way that overwhelms me to this day. I do not have kids, nor will I ever. We had a father/son relationship. I cherish that to this day, but I rarely think about it, because it is too painful.

 

My brother was a non-believer too, but I was always very closed off to him about throwing my beliefs around. I wanted him to become his own person naturally/organically.

 

He passed away on July 3, 2003. He was 16, a few months away from turning 17, going into his junior year of high school.

 

His death devastated us all, especially my mother, sister, and myself. Everyone, except me was religious in the family and I am sure most of you had heard terms like: "He is in the Lord's hands now", "This was part of God's plan", blah, blah, blah, etc., etc., etc...

 

I had to pause. A part of me wanted that fantasy to be true, because I wanted him to live forever. I wanted to be able to see him again when I passed away. I never had a chance to say goodbye.

 

Being the pragmatic guy that I am, I accepted that he is dead and lost forever to my life. Maybe those words are over dramatic, but it is a pain that put me on the shelf for half a decade. I did not deal with it well.

 

Sorry for the amount of words. I thought this would be something decent for this thread topic. If not, maybe I was being selfish and wanted to spew out my regrets and feel sorry for myself.

 

Really this is just a story about the reality of a person of the world who happens to be a non-believer/atheist/agnostic.

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 8/26/2015 at 2:58 AM, always33 said:

Oh, I'm sorry for not taking in the big picture before throwing in my two cents. I had a feeling that it was just a misunderstanding on my part, but I didn't go back and check that out. Duh ... gotta think even harder before littering the internet with my crap.

 

It was a great, thoughtful, post. No one was offended that you came here and were so thoughtful, imo. I think that the atheists posting here are the tolerant kind, that respect others' opinions and thoughts if they are respectful in turn. Thanks for posting, I think it increased all of our understanding.

[biggentleben]

 

  On 8/26/2015 at 6:30 AM, Bark's Lounge said:

His death devastated us all, especially my mother, sister, and myself. Everyone, except me was religious in the family and I am sure most of you had heard terms like: "He is in the Lord's hands now", "This was part of God's plan", blah, blah, blah, etc., etc., etc...

 

I had to pause. A part of me wanted that fantasy to be true, because I wanted him to live forever. I wanted to be able to see him again when I passed away. I never had a chance to say goodbye.

 

Being the pragmatic guy that I am, I accepted that he is dead and lost forever to my life. Maybe those words are over dramatic, but it is a pain that put me on the shelf for half a decade. I did not deal with it well.

 

First of all, let me start by thanking you for not only discussing this here, but trusting the members of TD to open your life up like this. That's one of the things that makes a forum great is when the members feel that they can open up without ridicule or embarrassment. So, thank you for sharing that obviously deeply personal reflection.

 

To the meat of why I responded - I think those responses are absolute crap. Pure unadulterated crap. I have studied in seminary and worked in ministry for multiple years, and I still do pulpit supply for rural churches around here who cannot afford a pastor (or cannot afford a clergy replacement when their pastor is on vacation). I would not imagine using such words. My grandfather passed away in June, and while I was blessed with the opportunity to say goodbye, watching him essentially suffocate to death as the most "humane" way of letting the man die was nothing short of infuriating to me. To have someone tell me that it was "God's plan" to have my grandfather die of the unprocessed fluid in his own throat until it filled his lungs and he could no longer breathe is beyond the scope of ignorance to me. The God I studied and worshiped in my life has no resemblance to a god that would plan an ending like that for one of His followers.

 

This week one of my high school friends lost her little brother to a tragic suicide. He was 25. I offered myself - to talk, to hug, to just sit and stare off at the sky, whatever my friend needed. What she needed was someone to talk about heaven with her daughter, who is around the age you were when you had your first real confrontation with religion (She's either going to be 13 or 14 in September). She was amazed when I intentionally told her to start that the place that she was imagining with her uncle winged and playing harps simply didn't exist. I expressed to her what is truly in the Bible about what heaven is, and she appreciated that and it allowed her to process. She also had a very good conversation about the drugs her uncle was using and his mental health issues and seeking appropriate help, no matter the stigma.that may come with seeking that help. In that moment, she didn't need angels and "God's plan", she needed real talk and support in one of the (if not THE) worst moments of her young life.

 

I would hope there are those out there who would offer more than cursory "thoughts and prayers" in the moment of tragedy, regardless of belief, but it is one of those areas in life that make people squirm the most because we as a society have an intense fear of death and do not embrace that it is an inevitable conclusion to human life and to focus on what we can do in the life we have rather than focusing our attention and worry on avoiding the death that will come eventually to us all. I would compare it to the country's squeamish approach to sex and sex education, though we can more accurately see the results of this in the issues we have in our society of teenage and unwanted pregnancy than seeing the results of ignoring the topic of death on our society.

[TheLeviathan]

Last handful of posts have been really thought provoking stuff, thanks guys.

[formerly33]

 

  On 8/26/2015 at 6:30 AM, Bark's Lounge said:

Sorry for the amount of words. I thought this would be something decent for this thread topic. If not, maybe I was being selfish and wanted to spew out my regrets and feel sorry for myself.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would ever be bothered by what you had to say. Just as we need to be understanding when people don't want to talk about things, we also need to listen when they feel the need. By no means were you being selfish; in fact, you post was very relevant to the topic on hand, and for anyone to object to it would be selfishness itself. And you weren't just feeling sorry for yourself (though you have every reason for your regrets); you were giving an account of your viewpoint on religion and what made you come to believe what you do today.

[Craig Arko]

I think you've all been pretty gutsy opening up here. My story is by any comparison mundane, and I'll not bore you with it.

 

Thanks and respect.

[TheLeviathan]

 

  On 8/26/2015 at 7:23 PM, Craig Arko said:

I think you've all been pretty gutsy opening up here. My story is by any comparison mundane, and I'll not bore you with it.

 

Thanks and respect.

 

Same, there wasn't any one moment, I just sort of grew out of it intellectually.  I still give back, in terms of volunteering, to many religious organizations.  I think there is a tremendous power for good in religions.

 

You just won't see me in a pew on Sunday (or whenever) because I'm more invested in doing good things for others than involving myself in rituals or some of the straight up nonsense that comes with the organizational element of religion or holy books.

 

I prefer to keep my options open on the idea of a higher force that provides for existence.  It's more intellectually satisfying for my curiosity.

[Mike Sixel]

When our family stopped going to church, we committed to volunteering once a month. You have no idea how hard it is to find non-religious volunteer opportunities for younger children. It was so hard, we almost started a charity to do that.......we did really well for over a year, and volunteered a lot at the food shelf in the summer months, but as a family, it got harder and harder.

[Craig Arko]

Okay, another one I'm not quite sure where to put, so will try here.

 

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/objective-vs-subjective-morality/

 

If you read this it's also worth it reading the comments. Some high-level discussion going on. I definitely lean toward the subjectivist view here. Probably no surprise there.

[drjim]

 

  On 8/30/2015 at 12:33 AM, Craig Arko said:

Okay, another one I'm not quite sure where to put, so will try here.

http://theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php/objective-vs-subjective-morality/

If you read this it's also worth it reading the comments. Some high-level discussion going on. I definitely lean toward the subjectivist view here. Probably no surprise there.

 

It's always obvious when people not in a religious tradition try to define it.

 

The main issue this article runs into is that there really is no clear "objective" truth as he seems to argue against. Religious traditions debate within itself constantly as to what is the actual "objective" truth that is held within the specific tradition, and will for the rest of time. Really not all that different that the "subjective" truth position.

 

To put it another way, scripture is the starting point of morality but is not the end point, mostly because there is no completely established one way in how it is to interpreted and thus play out in morality. And I'll add this - the best preachers/teachers (imo) of Christianity are those that teach/preach more about shedding all the things that get in the way of community with the living God and letting the individual interpret what the encounter means for themselves. However, the issue is that so many people just want to be told what is acceptable and move on with their lives.

[Craig Arko]

I get your point of view. Mine has always (at least for many perihelia) been that the concept we know today as morality is a result biologically of successful survival strategies overlayed with cultural adaptations about how to get along with the neighbors.

 

Do both paths lead to similar results? Sometimes; that's part of the subjective outlook. It depends on who's doing the evaluation, and to an extent on what form of language they're accustomed to using when framing the ideas.

[Shane Wahl]

I will post something actually substantially redeeming eventually here, since this is basically the best thread on TD right now (aside from my old Joe Benson thread, obviously).

 

With regard to this objective/subjective thing and religion, I cannot recommend Soren Kierkegaard enough for Christians and non-Christians alike. You can't, however, really get it unless you read a number of his books since the whole thing is a process of "edification" and self-building. If you really had to limit yourself, Concluding Unscientific Postscript is the best, with Works of Love being right up there (and the most important). Religious belief need not make claims to objectivity. In fact, it shouldn't given that it is faith-based.

[biggentleben]

This was one of my favorite threads here, and I think it went sadly unnoticed in the sports community this week when Arian Foster retired much in the way that he has played the game and lived his life, in his own way.

 

I am very pleased that he spoke out the way he did to prompt conversations like this among those who were willing to step up to the plate with an open mind and have those conversations. I'm glad he used the platform he had to emphasize that an atheist isn't a devil-worshiper or drugged-up criminalistic anarchist any more than a Christian/Muslim/Jew/whatever is an uneducated redneck. Thank you to Arian Foster, and best wishes in retirement!

[Bark's Lounge]

 

  On 10/28/2016 at 12:09 AM, biggentleben said:

This was one of my favorite threads here, and I think it went sadly unnoticed in the sports community this week when Arian Foster retired much in the way that he has played the game and lived his life, in his own way.

 

I am very pleased that he spoke out the way he did to prompt conversations like this among those who were willing to step up to the plate with an open mind and have those conversations. I'm glad he used the platform he had to emphasize that an atheist isn't a devil-worshiper or drugged-up criminalistic anarchist any more than a Christian/Muslim/Jew/whatever is an uneducated redneck. Thank you to Arian Foster, and best wishes in retirement!

I read an article on Foster's retirement that included tweets from other athletes who were being supportive and congratulatory. It appears Dan Haren is similarly aligned with Foster's beliefs.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm glad he made the decision on his own terms.  It seems fitting for how the man lives his life.