Waving the white flag on this roster

[jimmer]

I'd like to get Tyson Ross

[Dr. Evil]

The situation with the pen was predictable by what we did to improve it in the off season. Fein as your set up guy and Duensing as your primary lefty setup guy? Are you freaking kidding me? Ryan building a pen on the cheap as usual. It's predictable yet it repeats itself.

[tobi0040]

 

Who gives a crap what Pelfrey wants? Put May back in the rotation and move him to the pen.  He has turned into the pumpkin a lot of people predicted he would.  If he gets pissy about it, DFA him.  He has no trade value.

 

Amen.

[jun]

 

Who gives a crap what Pelfrey wants? Put May back in the rotation and move him to the pen.  He has turned into the pumpkin a lot of people predicted he would.  If he gets pissy about it, DFA him.  He has no trade value.

I don't give a crap about that either. I am just not sure May would do better though. May is just a 5-6 inning starter who could strike people out. His strikeout ability would serve well in the bullpen since the bullpen lacks power arms. May also needs to be more efficient with his pitches and lower his ERA in order to be an effective starter.

Do you realize that Pelfrey has not been that bad and May has not been that good?

This game is all about winning. It's not about how many batters you could strike out.

Don't play favoritism here.

[tobi0040]

 

I don't give a crap about that either. I am just not sure May would do better though. May is just a 5-6 inning starter who could strike people out. His strikeout ability would serve well in the bullpen since the bullpen lacks power arms. May also needs to be more efficient with his pitches and lower his ERA in order to be an effective starter.

 

The problem is May could be a #2 starter, but he isn't going to work on those things pitching to 1-3 batters at a time.

 

Really perplexing why he is in the pen.  Do we want to trade Pelfrey and we are boosting his value?  I work across from Target Field, I will run over a ham sandwich right now.

[jimmer]

 

I don't give a crap about that either. I am just not sure May would do better though. May is just a 5-6 inning starter who could strike people out. His strikeout ability would serve well in the bullpen since the bullpen lacks power arms. May also needs to be more efficient with his pitches and lower his ERA in order to be an effective starter.

and yet May STILL has the most WAR of any pitcher who has graced the rotation this season.  And his FIP (and xFIP) was the best of any starter in the rotation when he was moved along with having the most Ks per 9 IP and the 2nd least BB per 9 IP. I guess it's more important to have one extra less effective inning.

 

and he's being wasted in the bullpen

[rghrbek]

 

Why they exposed Gilmartin, only to keep guys on the 40 man they won't call up........is baffling, imo.

 

The Twins managing over the 40 man roster has been baffling for years, even going back into the mid Gardy years.  Remember the year we started the season with 3 catchers on the roster, with a 4th who played catcher and other positions.  Those were wasted 40 mans spots.  That discussion could send this thread very far off topic though.

[Kwak]

 

You're assuming TR is willing to spend farm talent on a rental to make the playoffs. I'm not sure that's true. Could be that TR and management intends to stand pat, keep the farm, and wait for guys to develop, even at the cost of not having much of a chance at the playoffs this season.

 

If the Twins stick with the "small market" model of team development, then guarding their farm system is what we should expect, rather than Yankees-style acquisitions of high-priced free agents. It's a longer orbit that comes around only about once every ten years, and the closest approach is still two or three years from now, when we see the arrival of guys like Mitch Garver, Kohl Stewart, Tyler Jay and other prospects now in Ft. Myers and Cedar Rapids. By then we'll know if Alex Wimmers was able to come back fully from TJ surgery, if Kennys Vargas found his power swing again, etc.

 

I have to admit, the unending soap opera of internal player transactions and development is at least as entertaining as watching Twins games on TV. One of the reasons I prefer the Twins hang onto their own prospects is because I like seeing the Twins' own draft picks work through the development process, rather than passing them around between teams like a bunch of poker chips. I want to see Max Kepler gradually develop into a great all-around ballplayer. I want to see Kohl Stewart learn to hit the corners with every pitch. I want to see Kennys Vargas finally figure things out. I want to see Wimmers get back to the form that got him drafted in the first round. I want to see AB Walker get his K rate down to a respectable (gulp) 30 percent..!

 

Something usually goes wrong, I know. But every now and then, something really goes right. All of it is interesting. Farming is fun.

One at a time:

1) It doesn't have to "cost the farm"--nor does it have to be a rental player.  Several of the trades completed refute that conclusion.

2) "High-priced free agents"--like the ones that most of the SPs on the Twins?  Face it, the Twins were forced to accept that a Major League quality rotation could not be built from the barnacles of garbage scows.

3) "Waiting for Godot"--many of the "prospects" are "busts", it's the nature of the game.  Plus, there are generally more "prospects" than there are available slots to play them.  Please consider the logjam in the OF, and the purported logjam for the rotation.

4) Something usually goes wrong--yes it does!  Look at 2010 as an example of how "the year" started--and ended.  Teams need to take advantage of the opportunities presented for post-season play when they happen--even if they are "unplanned".  Examples:  2008 and 2015. 

 

Now to a new point--the bullpen is a problem--but oh my the twins have all of these SP prospects (that are untouchable!).  Yet the Twins loaded the 2014 draft on college relief pitchers--to be trained as SPs.  ...and we wonder why there are problems in the bullpen?  Include the "non-use" of Graham in the pen.  Apparently he is so valuable that an Active Roster slot must be "set aside" for him--but he really isn't asked "to pull his weight" in the bullpen?  Hmm.

[jun]

 

The problem is May could be a #2 starter, but he isn't going to work on those things pitching to 1-3 batters at a time.

 

Really perplexing why he is in the pen.  Do we want to trade Pelfrey and we are boosting his value?  I work across from Target Field, I will run over a ham sandwich right now.

Yeah, if they could trade Pelfrey to get a prospect, May should be in the rotation.

[Target Field of Dreams]

 

Meh, I can't fault them for letting Gilmartin go. He wasn't going to be around regardless here.

 

Huh? Why would he not have been around regardless? He is a better pitcher than Duensing and Thompson and we chose to keep them and expose him to the Rule V Draft. That was a bad decision that is still hurting us right now

[nicksaviking]

I don't give a crap about that either. I am just not sure May would do better though. May is just a 5-6 inning starter who could strike people out. His strikeout ability would serve well in the bullpen since the bullpen lacks power arms. May also needs to be more efficient with his pitches and lower his ERA in order to be an effective starter.

Do you realize that Pelfrey has not been that bad and May has not been that good?

This game is all about winning. It's not about how many batters you could strike out.

Don't play favoritism here.

May will be here next year and needs to continue to develop. Prlfrey will be gone. What's the point in starting Pelfrey?

[jun]

 

and yet May STILL has the most WAR of any pitcher who has graced the rotation this season.  And his FIP (and xFIP) was the best of any starter in the rotation when he was moved along with having the most Ks per 9 IP and the 2nd least BB per 9 IP. I guess it's more important to have one extra less effective inning.

 

and he's being wasted in the bullpen

May also has the highest ERA and least innings pitched though.

[drjim]

I wouldn't want the last three years of that Shields contract, but I would be very curious what kind demands San Diego would be willing to met to get out from that AND the $8M to Benoit next year.

Whatever it is it would have to include Nolasco. Probably Polanco or Santana. Something else?

[tobi0040]

 

Yeah, if they could trade Pelfrey to get a prospect, May should be in the rotation.

 

I just wish Terry Ryan was the head scout and trade negotiator, but not the GM. Not a guy that authorized trades or decided whom to trade or when, but a guy you would go to and he would try and negotiate the best deal if you told him we are trading player X.

 

Things like leaving Pelfrey in there because he is a nice guy, wants to start, or because we hope to get something for him are not acceptable.

[jimmer]

 

May also has the highest ERA and least innings pitched though.

well, he hasn't started for a month so I imagine he would still have the least amount of inning pitched.  Sure can't work on that in the pen 1 inning at a time.

 

and I don't really care too much for ERA which is dependent on so many things besides pitcher performance.  For example, a BABIP of .340 when league average is what, around.290-.300? I'd rather judge a pitcher on what he can control.

[KGB]

 

and yet May STILL has the most WAR of any pitcher who has graced the rotation this season.  And his FIP (and xFIP) was the best of any starter in the rotation when he was moved along with having the most Ks per 9 IP and the 2nd least BB per 9 IP. I guess it's more important to have one extra less effective inning.

 

and he's being wasted in the bullpen

And Ricky Nolasco and Mike Pelfry are tied for 3rd best WAR for the year.  Not sure WAR is the best argument for including May in the rotation.

[laloesch]

 

If Pressly is healthy, he should be there. Meyer has been struggling in AAA. Achter should be a better choice. Graham deserves to be there as well.

Oh, please, NO Danny Santana! Kepler, Vargas, Polanco and even Robinson are all better options.

 

Looks like Polanco will be up for at least a few games while Plouffe is on paternity leave.   I have a feeling he'll  stick around for a while given how poorly Santana has handled the position, at least making this a competition with Escobar. 

 

The Bullpen situation is in full meltdown.  I mean its Chernobyl down there.  Absolutely atrocious.  I remember fans forecasting this last fall and guess what?  Here we are.

 

Part of the problem too (and this is nothing new) is that TR is so stingy with  the prospects.  You have to give up something of value to get something of value.  When you go out and dumpster dive you end up with the Brian Duensings and Blaine Boyers.  The other problem too is that everyone keeps focusing on Sano, Buxton & Berrios.  It's hard to fault Terry for refusing to trade those three and it's probably even harder to shift the focus of trade discussions away from the "crown jewels" of the Twin's farm system.

 

That said, I think its painfully obvious that Perkins is not the "Elite" closer that some on here think he is.  While he throws hard his fastball is as straight as an arrow and he tends to dump off speed pitches in the zone which get absolutely clobbered by the better teams.  

 

What they NEED to do is callup Oliveros (when he's healthy), Achter and Duffey immediately.  Don't wait for the current bullpen to completely torpedo this season.  Oliveros and Achter should have been given extended auditions at least a month ago when the bullpen first started showing cracks.  Duffey is also an option.  

 

 

[jimmer]

'And Ricky Nolasco and Mike Pelfry are tied for 3rd best WAR for the year.Not sure WAR is the best argument for including May in the rotation.'

 

Just shows how bad the rotation is and that Ervin Santana has been out half a season. If he hadn't, they'd be sitting #4 and #5.

 

And if I had just used WAR, you'd have a point.  I used FIP, xFIP, Ks per 9, BB per 9 too, and pointed out the extreme BABIP.  

[adorduan]

 

May will be here next year and needs to continue to develop. Prlfrey will be gone. What's the point in starting Pelfrey?

Exactly.  Pelfrey will be history in 2 months.  We need to find out what we have in May as a starter.

[Mike Sixel]

hard for Santana to accumulate much WAR yet..............

 

Either way, Pelfrey is not now good. He has not been good since 2010. He won't be on this roster next year. There is no good reason for him to be starting, and not May.

[Jham]

 

'And Ricky Nolasco and Mike Pelfry are tied for 3rd best WAR for the year.Not sure WAR is the best argument for including May in the rotation.'

 

Just shows how bad the rotation is and that Ervin Santana has been out half a season. If he hadn't, they'd be sitting #4 and #5.

 

And if I had just used WAR, you'd have a point.  I used FIP, xFIP, Ks per 9, BB per 9 too, and pointed out the extreme BABIP.  

 

May also has a (probably) unsustainable BB rate and HR run rate bringing down the FIP and XFIP.  Not saying he shouldn't be in the rotation or taking away from his first half and improvement in control, just I don't think it's fair to expect improvement on BABIP and not expect some regression in walks and home runs which will inherently raise his FIP and xFIP.

 

[jimmer]

 

May also has a (probably) unsustainable BB rate and HR run rate bringing down the FIP and XFIP.  Not saying he shouldn't be in the rotation or taking away from his first half and improvement in control, just I don't think it's fair to expect improvement on BABIP and not expect some regression in walks and home runs which will inherently raise his FIP and xFIP.

why isn't his walk rate sustainable?  It's not outrageous like Hughes. Even if it goes up some, it's still very good. He's been improving that part of his game. And the HR part won't effect his xFIP because that is already adjusted for average HR.

[nicksaviking]

why isn't his walk rate sustainable?  It's not outrageous like Hughes. Even if it goes up some, it's still very good. He's been improving that part of his game. And the HR part won't effect his xFIP because that is already adjusted for average HR.

And BB don't tend to be based on luck.

 

Unless Joe West is always behind the plate.

[KGB]

 

hard for Santana to accumulate much WAR yet..............

 

Either way, Pelfrey is not now good. He has not been good since 2010. He won't be on this roster next year. There is no good reason for him to be starting, and not May.

Santana has as many innings as Nolasco, and nobody want Ricky back in the rotation.

 

I agree Pelfrey shouldn't be in the rotation and a younger May should be given the rotation spot.  The Twins should only be interested trades that also help for future years.  You don't want to make the short term investments - like trading a May type players for a Pelfrey type player - just to make changes.  The veteran players are not always better than the young players they have in the system now.

[nicksaviking]

hard for Santana to accumulate much WAR yet...............

Not the positive kind anyway.

[DaveW]

[Vanimal46]

I had this exact song playing while I was starting this thread.

[Jham]

 

why isn't his walk rate sustainable?  It's not outrageous like Hughes. Even if it goes up some, it's still very good. He's been improving that part of his game. And the HR part won't effect his xFIP because that is already adjusted for average HR.

 

Ahh, hence the qualifier "probably".  It's conceivable he's become one of the great control pitchers in the game.  It's also conceivable that he could regress back toward his career marks in walks and HR.  His high BABIP could be horrible luck or hard contact.  A lot of posters seem to think it's a given that he can continue to post relatively low FIP and xFIP, but looking at his career marks as well as his game footage, I'm skeptical.  Doesn't mean he shouldn't be in the rotation or that we shouldn't have ridden his streak of control and limiting HR.  I just have some reservation about the expectations that he would be an ace or our best pitcher or even continue with the same level of success he's shown earlier this year.  

[jimmer]

I don't think an xFIP of 3.78 is so good we should be overly skeptical he can maintain that. It's just not an outrageous xFIP.  Just better than the others that were in the rotation at the time.And he's 25.  I'd expect him to improve some as he continues his career as a starter.  Unless they keep jacking him around in favor of the less talented veterans.

 

 

[diehardtwinsfan]

I'm not to terribly upset if TR doesn't think this is a playoff team.  Most of us didn't/don't either.  That said, he ought to be selling assets such as Hunter, Pelfrey and Milone at the deadline and calling up guys like Oliveros, Tonkin, and Achter to give them a chance to acclimate in a lower stress situation to see if they can stick.