Article: Twins, Rockies Talk Tulowitzki

[adorduan]

 

After the last 20 years of watching horrible SS play, I am blown away that people don't want to trade for a hall of fame caliber SS.

As this year has clearly proven, good pitching is more important.

[amjgt]

 

After the last 4 years of watching horrible pitching,  I'm blown away that people want to trade way the cheap, good pitching we finally have.

 

Which one are you referring to?

 

I'm not really on board with trading Gibson. Although if nothing else of real value was included I'd probably do it. The savings (in terms of prospects) we could get from including Gibson might just net us a decent short term replacement. But, in general, I'm not really interested in losing Gibson.

 

Berrios on the other hand? You bet. Not that I don't like the kid. I do like him. If anything, I've gotten mad at the "he's too short" crowd for what seemed to me to be an oversimplification. He seems like a really hard worker and has certainly shown a lot of promise, but pitching prospects are SOOOOOOOO hit and miss. If we could rewind the prospect talk by 1 calendar year, the thought of including Meyer in any trade talks would have seemed like sacrilege. Now he's almost a throw-in for some people. Berrios has looked really good in AA and pretty good in AAA, but until he proves it in the majors, I'm totally fine with him being in the trade.

[SwainZag]

 

After the last 20 years of watching horrible SS play, I am blown away that people don't want to trade for a hall of fame caliber SS.

 

I like the idea of having him at SS but I don't like the idea of the trio of.....1) trading young starting pitching 2) getting a player who has played in 65% of his teams games over the past 5 seasons and 3) watching the decline at SS of a player getting into his mid 30's, which has seemingly started this year

[amjgt]

 

2016 Twins lineup:

 

1. Buxton CF

2. Mauer 1B

3. Sano DH

4. Dozier 2B

5. Tulo SS

6. Plouffe 3B

7. Rosario LF

8. Hundley C

9. Hicks RF

 

That's a world series capable lineup right there.

 

I'm going to quote this again, because I have a point to make other than "play ball".....

 

That's the kind of lineup that allows you to get the best damn defense catcher you can find, slot him in the 9th spot, have him hit 0.190, and allow him to make your pitchers better and play great defense. It's been too long since we've had that. We've been relying on offense from our catcher for over a decade now. Enough. I'm jealous of Kansas City. I want to remember what it's like to have a premium defensive catcher. 

[Vanimal46]

Twins SS the last 25 years:

 

- Greg Gagne, Pat Mears, Denny Hocking, Christian Guzman (arguably the best?) Jason Bartlett, Juan Castro, Adam Everett, Orlando Cabrera, JJ Hardy, Pedro Florimon, Doug Bernier, Jason Bartlett again, Nunez, Santana, Polanco.

 

I think the carousel of SS needs to end one of these days....

[Otto von Ballpark]

Gibson is on a real nice run, but I think you could make a package around him too, no?  I mean, I know it's disruptive to our MLB season, but if Colorado was willing to accept Gibson plus prospects (not Berrios, Sano, or Buxton), you'd have to consider it just as much as a Berrios-led package.

 

More likely, Colorado would demand Gibson AND Berrios and that would give me pause.

[DaveW]

 

As this year has clearly proven, good pitching is more important.

As history has proven, a hall of fame caliber guy at a premium position is much more valuable then a #2/#3 type pitcher.

[amjgt]

 

I like the idea of having him at SS but I don't like the idea of the trio of.....1) trading young starting pitching 2) getting a player who has played in 65% of his teams games over the past 5 seasons and 3) watching the decline at SS of a player getting into his mid 30's, which has seemingly started this year

 

I guess I'm just not necessarily buying that his decline has started this year. We are still in relatively small sample territory here and a couple hot weeks and he'd be over his career OPS.

 

He's almost exactly one year removed from 340/432/603 - 1035 - Before he got hurt.

Granted, with another big home/road split, but still.... I'm not ready to accept that he is in the downside of his career.

[adorduan]

 

Twins SS the last 25 years:

 

- Greg Gagne, Pat Mears, Denny Hocking, Christian Guzman (arguably the best?) Jason Bartlett, Juan Castro, Adam Everett, Orlando Cabrera, JJ Hardy, Pedro Florimon, Doug Bernier, Jason Bartlett again, Nunez, Santana, Polanco.

 

I think the carousel of SS needs to end one of these days....

Yeah, we only won 2 world series with Gagne at shortstop.

[DaveW]

 

 

I 3) watching the decline at SS of a player getting into his mid 30's, which has seemingly started this year

I have an issue with this, he has a .866 OPS this year, if that is a "decline" I am perfectly fine with it (Career .889 OPS guy). Additionally this year on the road he has a .820 OPS, which mirrors his career .819 OPS on the road.

 

None of the above scream "decline phase" to me.

[DaveW]

 

 

Yeah, we only won 2 world series with Gagne at shortstop.

Gagne put up 14.8 WAR from  1987 to 1991. Basically 3 WAR a year, and had a .700 OPS. Not all star numbers but he was clearly better than anything the Twins have trotted out since.

[SwainZag]

 

I have an issue with this, he has a .866 OPS this year, if that is a "decline" I am perfectly fine with it (Career .889 OPS guy). Additionally this year on the road he has a .820 OPS, which mirrors his career .819 OPS on the road.

 

None of the above scream "decline phase" to me.

I should have specified that I meant that decline in terms of the in field and not at the plate.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

That's the kind of lineup that allows you to get the best damn defense catcher you can find, slot him in the 9th spot, have him hit 0.190, and allow him to make your pitchers better and play great defense.

Good point, but I don't think that lineup is THAT good.  The 2014 Dodgers, who had a pretty good lineup, survived the Ellis/Butera tandem at catcher but opted to replace it in the offseason.

 

Jeff Mathis was that kind of catcher on a few Angels teams, but even he only once topped 300 plate appearances.

[toosweet64]

I probably shouldn't even suggest this but, Tulo could move to 3rd base if this fictitious decline were to continue or actually occur.  I realize this opens a hole back up at SS but Nick Gordon might be ready by that time.  I say this with no expectation of Sano staying at 3rd base and Plouffe being retained if Tulo moves off SS.  Add to the fact that Tulo could DH once or twice a week and you might actually get more games per year and less injuries out of the guy over the last few years of his contract.  

[jorgenswest]

 

now we are punting 2015 and 2016, and can't expect a good team until 2017? Man, those bars keep moving....

Is the choice punt 2015 or punt 2017 and beyond? I don't see why those need to be the choices. Is it Tulo or nothing?

 

Someone will be foolish enough to take Tulowitzki's contract. It could be the Twins. In 2017 the Twins can have platoon of Tulo and Mauer at 1B and a trio of number 5 starters to the tune of around 100 million for the 5. Makes sense to me. I'm in.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I guess I'm just not necessarily buying that his decline has started this year. We are still in relatively small sample territory here and a couple hot weeks and he'd be over his career OPS.

The OPS is solid, but Tulo's ISO and BB% are down, his K% is up, and he's more reliant on BABIP than before... could be signs of decline, although it could be relatively painless if it's gradual and not sudden like Mauer's 2014.

[markos]

 

Twins SS the last 25 years:

 

- Greg Gagne, Pat Mears, Denny Hocking, Christian Guzman (arguably the best?) Jason Bartlett, Juan Castro, Adam Everett, Orlando Cabrera, JJ Hardy, Pedro Florimon, Doug Bernier, Jason Bartlett again, Nunez, Santana, Polanco.

 

I think the carousel of SS needs to end one of these days....

Gagne was definitely the best, and he doesn't belong on that list at all. In the last 30 Twins seasons, he has the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th, 11th and 17th best seasons at SS based on bWAR. He was a solidly above-average SS for 5 straight seasons, accumulating 18 bWAR in a Twins uniform. 

[DaveW]

If you have this lineup for the playoffs, I think you honestly have as good a shot as anyone in the AL. The pitching would need to step up, but Gibson, Hughes and May at least have shown flashes of brilliance at times.

 

1. Dozier (30+ HR power)

2. Mauer

3. Sano (30+ HR power)

4. Tulo  (25+ HR Power)

5. Plouffe (20+ HR power)

6. Hunter (20+ HR Power)

7. Rosario

8. Hundley

9. Hicks

 

Arcia/Buxton as depth if needed.

[jimbo92107]

Gosh, what a bad idea this trade is. Especially when you've got a good prospect in Jorge Polanco just waiting to be tested, and you give up nothing for him.

[DaveW]

 

IIn 2017 the Twins can have platoon of Tulo and Mauer at 1B

Hmmm. hyperbole much? If you wanna go with the "Tulo is gonna decline" meme, then at least have him move to third base.

[Vanimal46]

 

Gagne was definitely the best, and he doesn't belong on that list at all. In the last 30 Twins seasons, he has the 3rd, 4th, 5th, 8th, 11th and 17th best seasons at SS based on bWAR. He was a solidly above-average SS for 5 straight seasons, accumulating 18 bWAR in a Twins uniform. 

 

Clearly I'm showing my age on this discussion. I was 2 years old in his last season with the Twins, so I have no recollection of him playing. Either way then our BEST SS was 23 years ago. The best SS in my fandom was Guzman, and even he left the team 11 years ago.. But hey, let's keep throwing out re-treads and Escobar/Nunez/Santana instead of a proven MLB All-Star at the right price.

[DaveW]

Gosh, what a bad idea this trade is. Especially when you've got a good prospect in Jorge Polanco just waiting to be tested, and you give up nothing for him.

I will give you 5:1 odds that Polanco doesn't put up a third of the career WAR that Tulo does.

[SwainZag]

 

I will give you 5:1 odds that Polanco doesn't put up a third of the career WAR that Tulo does.

 

Everything Tulo has done in the past should be moot when it comes to comparing with Polanco.

[markos]

 

Clearly I'm showing my age on this discussion. I was 2 years old in his last season with the Twins, so I have no recollection of him playing. Either way then our BEST SS was 23 years ago. The best SS in my fandom was Guzman, and even he left the team 11 years ago.. But hey, let's keep throwing out re-treads and Escobar/Nunez/Santana instead of a proven MLB All-Star at the right price.

I'm barely old enough to remember. Its kind of odd, but Gagne was my favorite player for a while growing up. I was an 8-year-old aspiring shortstop in 1991, so of course I gravitated to player on my favorite team that shared my position. Good times...

 

...unlike the recent times, with all the random misfits that have been sent out to man short. 

 

 

[Loosey]

 

Clearly I'm showing my age on this discussion. I was 2 years old in his last season with the Twins, so I have no recollection of him playing. Either way then our BEST SS was 23 years ago. The best SS in my fandom was Guzman, and even he left the team 11 years ago.. But hey, let's keep throwing out re-treads and Escobar/Nunez/Santana instead of a proven MLB All-Star at the right price.

Personally I would be fine with Escobar out there on a daily basis vs. the Santana/Nunez combo we usually see.  Santana is essentially the worst SS in the major leagues right now (at the plate).  Escobar would be very middle of the pack for shortstops but they continue to play him LF.  Tulo would be the ultimate get, but the cost would be much more than a team on the upswing should pay.

[zchrz]

 

Stopped eating dairy. The guy who can't stay off the DL cut milk out of his diet.

 

Good luck with that, Tulo.

 

Dozier might like him but Mauer would hate him.

[Mike Sixel]

 

Is the choice punt 2015 or punt 2017 and beyond? I don't see why those need to be the choices. Is it Tulo or nothing?

 

Someone will be foolish enough to take Tulowitzki's contract. It could be the Twins. In 2017 the Twins can have platoon of Tulo and Mauer at 1B and a trio of number 5 starters to the tune of around 100 million for the 5. Makes sense to me. I'm in.

 

someone said "they aren't real this year, look for how good they will be in 2017"....I didn't put 2017 out there, not one bit.

 

I can't help they've made terrible decisions on certain contracts, the questions is if you won't try to win in a year where you have already banked a 9 game over .500 post ASB standing....when will you?

 

How do you expect to fill these holes at C and SS and 1B and elite pitcher, if not by trading guys and spending money? And, if you are willing to do that next year, when you don't have a 9 game head start, why not this year?

[Mike Sixel]

 

Gosh, what a bad idea this trade is. Especially when you've got a good prospect in Jorge Polanco just waiting to be tested, and you give up nothing for him.

 

If he's so good, why isn't he here? Why does he have 7 (or more) errors in AAA already?

[Mike Sixel]

Not getting him pretty much means Santana stays out there, right? I mean, we are in July, and he's still there........why would anything change unless something really changed?

 

To the person that said Tulo's past means nothing, do you really think Polanco is likely to put up more WAR in the next three years than Tulo?

[jimmer]

 

Not getting him pretty much means Santana stays out there, right? I mean, we are in July, and he's still there........why would anything change unless something really changed?

 

To the person that said Tulo's past means nothing, do you really think Polanco is likely to put up more WAR in the next three years than Tulo?

Getting Tulo would be awesome. And smart.