Article: Twins, Rockies Talk Tulowitzki

[Mike Sixel]

Age and injury are the only thing that make it possible to get him, imo. If he was 2 years younger and healthy? No chance....

[Brock Beauchamp]

Like I mentioned in my post above, I don't think the Rockies consider that much, and they certainly don't eat any salary in that deal (Gibson or Berrios, no Sano).

 

But I'm glad to see folks are at least coming around to the idea that the Twins wouldn't walk away from such a deal!

I don't know. It's not far from the Johan deal and Santana was the best pitcher in baseball with no injury risk. He was also two years younger.

 

All three players are on the cusp of MLB (unlike the Johan deal). Berrios is a 30-ish prospect. Polanco is a fringe 100. Kepler is pretty much a lock to creep into the 75 range this offseason (that kid is seriously raking at an advanced level).

 

On top of that, who in baseball needs a SS and can even match that offer?

[Otto von Ballpark]

Santana had no injury risk? The Mets would like a word with you...

[Otto von Ballpark]

I agree they are not getting a top 10 prospect, and maybe no other team matches that offer.

 

Still doesn't mean the Rockies trade him, though. There is no pressure on them to accept a non-overwhelming offer right now. They could probably do similarly well anytime over the next year or two, if they want.

[jimmer]

 

 

 

But I'm glad to see folks are at least coming around to the idea that the Twins wouldn't walk away from such a deal!

FOR the record, I was never in the camp that said we should walk away from such a deal :-)

 

And obviously I disagree about the money. I've seen Tulo trade scenarios at Fangraphs and other sites during chats that had Rockies getting similar deals and eating some money.  MLB Network has said similar things. Berrios is Sporting News #17 prospect in all of baseball as of last month and they need pitchers like him.

 

I wish I could say we'll see, but we aren't getting Tulo anyway.

[tobi0040]

If I'm a GM, I would rather be on the Rockies side of the table on the Tulo or Berrios, Polanco, and Kepler deal.  I will draft and develop a guy, get him up through 30 (peak production), flip him and start over.   That is a much better formula for long term success than the Twins side here.

 

Personally, I think the Twins have too much money already tied up in aging players.  We have $50M locked up in immovable players (Mauer, Nolasco, and Ervin).  As good as Tulo has been when healthy, he has a shot at becoming immovable with another injury or two.  The irony here is as you get payroll and roster spots locked up in 30+ year olds you need young cheap players to step up.  So I see these three for one deals as hurting you on both ends.  Berrios, Polanco, and Kepler are close to a lock in my eyes of helping the Twins.

 

[Brock Beauchamp]

Santana had no injury risk? The Mets would like a word with you...

He had no greater injury risk than any other healthy player.

 

Tulo can't say the same. He missed half his team's games from 2012-2014.

 

Santana was as much of a sure thing as one can find in a pitcher at the time of the trade. He never started fewer than 33 games after entering the rotation to start a season.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I agree they are not getting a top 10 prospect, and maybe no other team matches that offer.

Still doesn't mean the Rockies trade him, though. There is no pressure on them to accept a non-overwhelming offer right now. They could probably do similarly well anytime over the next year or two, if they want.

I know nothing of the Rockies' financials but yeah, there's a good chance they're in no hurry to trade Tulowitzki at all.

[jimmer]

And then the Mets pitched him to the tune of having the most innings pitched in the league the first year they got him.  How he was used by them might have contributed to his demise.

[Vanimal46]

Welcome aboard the Pro-Tulo team Brock! I know you haven't completely written off the deal throughout this whole thread, but up until today you were much more skeptical about it. What's changed?

[Mike Sixel]

 

I know nothing of the Rockies' financials but yeah, there's a good chance they're in no hurry to trade Tulowitzki at all.

 

Ironically, given his injury risk, I'd deal him if I could, for 3 guys I thought were MLB players.....Berrios, Polanco and someone? I'd do that if I was them. They are terrible right now....

[Brock Beauchamp]

Welcome aboard the Pro-Tulo team Brock! I know you haven't completely written off the deal throughout this whole thread, but up until today you were much more skeptical about it. What's changed?

It didn't work from the Twins' side of things. It wasn't until I started rearranging multiple pieces that I saw a way to make it work.

 

I'm still not 100% sold on the idea. It's a big gamble... But it sure is interesting.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Ironically, given his injury risk, I'd deal him if I could, for 3 guys I thought were MLB players.....Berrios, Polanco and someone? I'd do that if I was them. They are terrible right now....

Not to mention that you also free up $20m to sign some pretty good players. A team could look pretty good in 2016-2017 with Gibson/Berrios, Polanco, Kepler/Walker, and $20m.

[jimmer]

 

Welcome aboard the Pro-Tulo team Brock! I know you haven't completely written off the deal throughout this whole thread, but up until today you were much more skeptical about it. What's changed?

Brock is open minded and actually thinks about opposing ideas as opposed to worrying more about winning an argument.  That's what good debaters do.  It's about the truth. He may not think it's a good idea still, but seems he is at least thinking it may not be so bad.  That's a good thing.

Edited July 23, 2015 by jimmer

[jimmer]

 

Ironically, given his injury risk, I'd deal him if I could, for 3 guys I thought were MLB players.....Berrios, Polanco and someone? I'd do that if I was them. They are terrible right now....

exactly, and then I'd turn around and trade Cargo, Blackmon and Hawkins too. Have their 2B and 3B be the face of the team

[Vanimal46]

It didn't work from the Twins' side of things. It wasn't until I started rearranging multiple pieces that I saw a way to make it work.

 

I'm still not 100% sold on the idea. It's a big gamble... But it sure is interesting.

I like it. The trade proposal, the reasoning behind the proposal, all of it. It's a gamble but could pay off in huge dividends for our favorite club.

[jimmer]

The best things about

 

I like it. The trade proposal, the reasoning behind the proposal, all of it. It's a gamble but could pay off in huge dividends for our favorite club.

The best things about it:We get a stud player till he's almost 36 (not almost 40) and it's a trade that would actually work for both sides.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

And obviously I disagree about the money. I've seen Tulo trade scenarios at Fangraphs and other sites during chats that had Rockies getting similar deals and eating some money.  MLB Network has said similar things.

Perhaps money is one reason why those hypothetical deals never came to fruition...

 

How many good-performing stars have been traded with long-term contracts, much less required cash to be sent with them?  Texas sent money with A-Rod, but he was the highest paid player in the game at the time.

[jimmer]

 

Perhaps money is one reason why those hypothetical deals never came to fruition...

 

How many good-performing stars have been traded with long-term contracts, much less required cash to be sent with them?  Texas sent money with A-Rod, but he was the highest paid player in the game at the time.

My point was, many of the supposed experts believe money will have to move if they get cost controlled quality prospects (and Berrios qualifies at a position of need).  I honestly don't care about the money, don't think the Twins should either, nor think it should be an obstacle in either trade scenario.

 

So, whatever.  You may be right, truthfully you almost always are IMO, and that's fine with me.

[Vanimal46]

The best things about

 

The best things about it:We get a stud player till he's almost 36 (not almost 40) and it's a trade that would actually work for both sides.

Exactly. No need to tell me, I've been pro-Tulo trade this whole thread. I nearly lost my mind reading all of the "declining phase" posts earlier...

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

exactly, and then I'd turn around and trade Cargo, Blackmon and Hawkins too. Have their 2B and 3B be the face of the team

The Rockies 2B may have been an all-star, but he is not a very good player.  I suspect some of their reticence to move Tulo might be due to the fact that any infielders they develop of acquire might be needed at 2B soon more than as Tulo's replacement.

[Mike Sixel]

I think they may have a 2B, now that I look.....

[COtwin]

I live in Colorado and am a Rockies fan. Tulo has let us down with his inability to stay on the field. That fact alone is enough to say no go. The fact that he would play half his games in TF also scares me. If people have been frustrated by joes inability to stay healthy a few years back , then they will go insane with Tulo. The cost is much to high for a guy with a ton of question marks and a massive prce tag.

[jimmer]

 

Not to mention that you also free up $20m to sign some pretty good players. A team could look pretty good in 2016-2017 with Gibson/Berrios, Polanco, Kepler/Walker, and $20m.

Not to mention what they could get for Cargo along with Gray, Butler, Story.

 

And they would still have Arenado and DJ.

 

They need to trade Cargo and Tulo this year if they go for the rebuilding and they are a mess, so they should be rebuilding.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

On top of that, who in baseball needs a SS and can even match that offer?

The Yankees desperately need a SS and could match that offer by leading with Severino or Judge.

 

If the Mets included just one of the 4 young starters (Harvey, deGrom, Syndergaard, Matz), they can probably beat either the Twins or Yankees.

[jimmer]

 

I live in Colorado and am a Rockies fan. Tulo has let us down with his inability to stay on the field. That fact alone is enough to say no go. The fact that he would play half his games in TF also scares me. If people have been frustrated by joes inability to stay healthy a few years back , then they will go insane with Tulo. The cost is much to high for a guy with a ton of question marks and a massive prce tag.

I'm a Rockies fan, live close to Coloarado and I disagree.  I also don't blame the player for injuries. He's a very good player in all aspects including intangibles.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Pittsburgh could beat our offer too if they were willing to give up Glasnow.

 

I don't think they would right now, but the Rockies can afford to wait and see.  Heck, even that Twins offer is probably still on the table this winter, if not into 2016 too.  Other teams may see a SS need arise in the next year or two too, especially if they lose patience with struggling incumbents (i.e. Cubs).

Edited July 23, 2015 by spycake

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

The Yankees desperately need a SS and could match that offer by leading with Severino or Judge.

 

If the Mets included just one of the 4 young starters (Harvey, deGrom, Syndergaard, Matz), they can probably beat either the Twins or Yankees.

I think the Yankees would have to offer both Severino and Judge to match Berrios and Kepler. Severino is a stud and I'd probably take him over Berrios but Judge... Eh, I'd go with the huge upside of Kepler over Judge. I've always been slightly skeptical of Kepler but his contact ability, discipline, and potential as a centerfielder won me over. Judge has to rake to be a good player but Kepler has an outside shot at being a fringy centerfielder in the majors, which makes it a lot easier to get production out of him.

 

Also, Kepler is nearly a full year younger.

 

Agreed on the Mets. If they want to get into the mix, they could win Tulo (really, so could the Twins, but Ryan isn't trading Buxton or Sano).

[Otto von Ballpark]

White Sox could always make a splash at SS too.

[tobi0040]

 

I live in Colorado and am a Rockies fan. Tulo has let us down with his inability to stay on the field. That fact alone is enough to say no go. The fact that he would play half his games in TF also scares me. If people have been frustrated by joes inability to stay healthy a few years back , then they will go insane with Tulo. The cost is much to high for a guy with a ton of question marks and a massive prce tag.

 

I am not sure how familiar you are with Minnesota.  Allow me to explain. We complain six months of the year because it is too cold.  Then summer rolls around and we complain that it is too hot and muggy.  We run the AC and stay indoors.  Kind of how we operate.

 

In baseball terms we spend years complaining about seeing our players leave even though they often leave with really bad contracts.  Then we give Joe Mauer $184M and then instantly complain when he is hurt, moves off catcher, or doesn’t hit enough HR’s.  So please let us complain about not getting Tulo. Don’t rain on this parade.  The enthusiasm of the trade (that won’t happen) will last until he hits into a double play or misses one game.  Then we will spend five years complaining about all these aging veterans.