Article: Will Twins Address Their Most Glaring Weakness?

[Mike Sixel]

What if you took half the salary of one of those over paid corner guys? How many millions (in effect) would you pay for Norris, and give up a decent prospect?

[DaveW]

 

 

I think the most realistic scenario for a trade for a young catcher with potential likely involves Plouffe this winter.  Plouffe with a good, but not our top prospects gets it done.

Agreed, I think you can just go get a rental type like AJ now for catcher and then step back and address the problem long term during the off-season.

[DaveW]

 

 

What if you took half the salary of one of those over paid corner guys? How many millions (in effect) would you pay for Norris, and give up a decent prospect?

Kemp?

No thanks.

[drjim]

 

I think the most realistic scenario for a trade for a young catcher with potential likely involves Plouffe this winter.  Plouffe with a good, but not our top prospects gets it done.

 

Or Hicks.

[drjim]

 

"Absurdly cheap," eh? The Padres acquired Norris in December for Jesse Hahn and R.J. Alvarez, a minor-league starter and reliever, neither of whom were ranked as Top 100 prospects. Now Norris has a 684 OPS through his first half-season with them. I'm going to need you to elaborate on this viewpoint. It might not be enough, I don't know, that's why I was genuinely asking for feedback... but "absurd"? Nah.

 

If I'm the offense-needy Padres, I'd love to get my hands on a young hitter of Arcia's caliber. The notion that anyone views him as a "bust" at age 24, as someone posited earlier on this thread, is what's absurd.

 

The "absurdly" was a little hyperbole in your honor, but this is certainly low on Norris. Especially because of the Padres lack of need for a corner OF.

[nytwinsfan]

 

I think the most realistic scenario for a trade for a young catcher with potential likely involves Plouffe this winter.  Plouffe with a good, but not our top prospects gets it done.

Yup, this.  Sano should be at 3B medium to long-term and one or more of Arcia, Vargas, or as of yet unknown free agent should be at DH.

[Mike Sixel]

I don't agree with trading a top 10 3B in Plouffe.....I just don't get it. Not unless you get a MLB player, SS or C, that is signed for 2+ years. And, he'd have to be top 10 at his position......

[Linus]

 

Agreed, I think you can just go get a rental type like AJ now for catcher and then step back and address the problem long term during the off-season.

Yep, but I wouldn't even bother on the rental.  Whoever they would get it not going to be much better than Suzuki.  Not worth giving up even mediocre prospect and upsetting the pitching apple cart.

[nytwinsfan]

 

   I see there's still a lot of people doing bargain shopping. 

I view minor league players with a more skeptical eye than many of you.  I don't believe a player in your MiLB system at single A level can or should be your #1 prospect.  Or a 16 yr. old kid just signed from the international pool is suddenly the #10 prospect in your system.  If these things are true, you've got a pretty bad system. 

 

If the Twins are contemplating a trade, EVERYONE is available. 

So you didn't think Buxton should have been the #1 prospect in the Twins system in mid to late 2013? Ok then. If you said it is "rare" that a player in your MiLB system at single A level can or should be your #1 prospect, then I might agree. But this seems kind of like a pointless, arbitrary rule. And I don't think most people think Javier is a top 10 prospect, or even a top 20 prospect really (I assume this is what you are referring to). Maybe a couple do, but that seems kind of like a straw man to me.  Finally, why is EVERYONE available if the Twins are contemplating a trade? Again, seems kind of like an arbitrary rule. Maybe you mean Buxton and Sano would hypothetically be available if someone offers a top 10 player in MLB. Sure, ok then. That's not going to happen though. For all practical purposes Buxton and Sano are off limits.

[Linus]

 

 

I don't agree with trading a top 10 3B in Plouffe.....I just don't get it. Not unless you get a MLB player, SS or C, that is signed for 2+ years. And, he'd have to be top 10 at his position......

I like Trevor but if we want to get a good, young catcher the price is going to be premium. 

[Mike Sixel]

 

I like Trevor but if we want to get a good, young catcher the price is going to be premium. 

 

I did say it would have to be a good, young, catcher or SS.....but some of the trades here have him going for a dang RP.....I really think it is a huge risk to trade Plouffe....

[nytwinsfan]

 

I don't agree with trading a top 10 3B in Plouffe.....I just don't get it. Not unless you get a MLB player, SS or C, that is signed for 2+ years. And, he'd have to be top 10 at his position......

Well, because you have a potential (I know, that word) top 5 3B on your team as well, and nobody decent to play catcher. That's what I see. I am pretty sure those of us saying trade Plouffe for a C (this winter btw, not right now) are talking about someone with more than 2 years left of control. I certainly am. I wouldn't trade him for a 1 or 2 year rental.

[Mike Sixel]

I get what Sano could be....but he could also be your RF or 1B or DH, so, that's why I said you'd have to get a C or SS.....

[nytwinsfan]

 

I get what Sano could be....but he could also be your RF or 1B or DH, so, that's why I said you'd have to get a C or SS.....

Agreed. I thought this thread was about trading for catchers, no?

 

I did say it would have to be a good, young, catcher or SS.....but some of the trades here have him going for a dang RP.....I really think it is a huge risk to trade Plouffe....

Who suggested trading Plouffe for a relief pitcher (other than Chapman maybe)? I agree that is ridiculous.

[DJL44]

The best option this offseason for catcher might be a free agent. Matt Wieters is not going to cost a ton.

[Mike Sixel]

My bad, those RP trades are on other threads.....

 

 

[Nick Nelson]

 

The "absurdly" was a little hyperbole in your honor, but this is certainly low on Norris. Especially because of the Padres lack of need for a corner OF.

OK. Do you have an alternative package that might get it done? It may take different players but I'm not sure it takes a whole lot more, given the bar that has recently been set for Norris' trade value and his lack of production this year. 

[Linus]

 

I get what Sano could be....but he could also be your RF or 1B or DH, so, that's why I said you'd have to get a C or SS.....

I wouldn't even trade him for a SS; only for a catcher.  We've got enough options at SS that I think it will work out.  We KNOW we have a problem behind the plate.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Plawecki!

Plawecki is currently the Mets starter, with d'Arnaud on the DL, and they're just as much in contention as the Twins are.

[Mike Sixel]

 

I wouldn't even trade him for a SS; only for a catcher.  We've got enough options at SS that I think it will work out.  We KNOW we have a problem behind the plate.

 

Fair, but I don't believe in Santana or Polanco at SS.....and Gordon is 2-3 years away, so I'd consider it for the correct SS (no idea who that would be).

 

but, if you could get a legit catcher, I'd prefer that, agreed.

[nytwinsfan]

 

Plawecki is currently the Mets starter, with d'Arnaud on the DL, and they're just as much in contention as the Twins are.

True, that's fair.  I think we could trade for him this offseason though, when catcher will still be a glaring weakness for us.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

"Absurdly cheap," eh? The Padres acquired Norris in December for Jesse Hahn and R.J. Alvarez, a minor-league starter and reliever, neither of whom were ranked as Top 100 prospects. Now Norris has a 684 OPS through his first half-season with them. I'm going to need you to elaborate on this viewpoint. It might not be enough, I don't know, that's why I was genuinely asking for feedback... but "absurd"? Nah.

 

If I'm the offense-needy Padres, I'd love to get my hands on a young hitter of Arcia's caliber. The notion that anyone views him as a "bust" at age 24, as someone posited earlier on this thread, is what's absurd.

Hahn wasn't a "minor league starter" last winter any more than Trevor May is a "minor league starter" right now -- he had a 112 ERA+ and 8.6 K/9 in 73 MLB innings already.  And while not a top prospect, Alvarez was a reliever with a career 13.3 K/9 in the minors, who had already appeared in MLB (and had a 10.1 K/9 in 8 IP).  Neither had yet to really struggle at any professional level.

 

I know it seems affordable and I wish the Twins could have topped that offer, but for all our minor league depth, we didn't have two available pieces with that combination of MLB experience and success.  Still don't, really, unless we want to deal May or Gibson.

 

And Norris' .684 OPS is a 93 wRC+ in Petco -- not a star but 13th out of 26 MLB catchers with 200+ PA.  He's on pace for a 3.2 WAR season.

 

Arcia and Meyer are not official busts yet, but they're both trending in that direction.  Arcia has spent the last 2.5 years looking a lot like a left-handed Dayan Viciedo impersonator.  Unless San Diego was confident in a specific coaching plan that could turn them around, I think they ask for more or different pieces for Norris.

[jokin]

 

I don't agree with trading a top 10 3B in Plouffe.....I just don't get it. Not unless you get a MLB player, SS or C, that is signed for 2+ years. And, he'd have to be top 10 at his position......

 

I like Trevor but if we want to get a good, young catcher the price is going to be premium. 

 

Isn't that what Mike said?  Your scenario of- Plouffe for a MLB catcher- is one I'm assuming is at the top of Ryan's list of potential offseason strategies.

[Vanimal46]

I'm a little late to this party, but I agree with VodkaDave and others that the proposed idea of Arcia & Meyer for Norris would not do the trick. Even if they traded away Justin Upton, which is certainly likely by July 31, they have Kemp / Myers and 35 other guys to choose from to fill a corner OF spot.

 

Would it be safe to say that acquiring a young C who can field and hit is similar to acquiring a young QB in the NFL? They're both premium spots in their respective sports, and if we really want a fix, we're going to have to pony up more than we'd like to get it done.

 

Sure, the Twins could go for the bargains out there with AJ, Pena/etc. but we'll be back in the same situation next year because they are not long term solutions.....

 

The reality is our farm system is not top 3 anymore with recent grads of Rosario, Buxton, Sano, etc. There's a couple left (Berrios, Gordon, maybe Kepler) that other teams would covet in a trade, and the rest are depth players that's not going to drive the needle up in trade negotiations. I would be very hesitant in giving up Berrios, but I would think long and hard about it if he were able to bring in a C for the long term...

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Arcia has spent the last 2.5 years looking a lot like a left-handed Dayan Viciedo impersonator. 

You just pointed out why that's not a valid comparison. If Viciedo was left-handed, he'd be way more valuable than he is right now.

 

Arcia dominates 70% of pitchers. Viciedo dominates 30% of pitchers. Yeah, they're both possible platoon candidates but one is far more valuable than the other.

 

And that's not including the peripherals of the two players, which indicate more potential improvement from Arcia than Viciedo (namely Oswaldo's acceptable .062 isoD to Dayan's meager .044). Viciedo has 1800 MLB PAs to Arcia's 850 MLB PAs. There's a lot of room for Oswaldo to improve, whereas I think Viciedo is who he is (more Delmon Young than Oswaldo Arcia).

 

I understand the comparison but just the left/right difference separate the two players and their value quite a bit.

 

With all that said, I don't see a team like the Padres falling over themselves to acquire Arcia. NL (no DH) with a spacious park that would highlight Arcia's defensive weaknesses.

[Linus]

 

I'm a little late to this party, but I agree with VodkaDave and others that the proposed idea of Arcia & Meyer for Norris would not do the trick. Even if they traded away Justin Upton, which is certainly likely by July 31, they have Kemp / Myers and 35 other guys to choose from to fill a corner OF spot.

 

Would it be safe to say that acquiring a young C who can field and hit is similar to acquiring a young QB in the NFL? They're both premium spots in their respective sports, and if we really want a fix, we're going to have to pony up more than we'd like to get it done.

 

Sure, the Twins could go for the bargains out there with AJ, Pena/etc. but we'll be back in the same situation next year because they are not long term solutions.....

 

The reality is our farm system is not top 3 anymore with recent grads of Rosario, Buxton, Sano, etc. There's a couple left (Berrios, Gordon, maybe Kepler) that other teams would covet in a trade, and the rest are depth players that's not going to drive the needle up in trade negotiations. I would be very hesitant in giving up Berrios, but I would think long and hard about it if he were able to bring in a C for the long term...

No way do you give up Berrios.  I would never trade top flight pitching (or pitching prospects) for position players.  I wish I could have made it a law before Bill Smith thought it was a great idea to trade Matt Garza.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Viciedo has 1800 MLB PAs to Arcia's 850 MLB PAs.

I obviously didn't mean they are similar TODAY.  But Arcia is much closer to Viciedo circa 2013 than he is to a valuable trade chip right now.

 

Batting from the left side is probably why Arcia has a career 103 OPS+ vs Viciedo's 97.  But even the Twins have shown this year how little that performance is worth when it's accompanied by negative corner OF defense and no forward progress at the plate.

 

Arcia was looking like a potential non-tender candidate after 2016 even before his AAA banishment.

[ND-Fan]

Twins will trade for Piernzski or somebody like him now player to rent for remainder of the season and will only give up relief type pitcher lower minor league position player for the second half. Ryan will never make big trade in mid season if it involves some quality prospects. I just don't see the Twins making many moves going into Trade deadline. There going to look for reliever and fill in catcher for remainder of the year and even at reliever it just may come from the farm system.

[Vanimal46]

 

No way do you give up Berrios.  I would never trade top flight pitching (or pitching prospects) for position players.  I wish I could have made it a law before Bill Smith thought it was a great idea to trade Matt Garza.

 

 

It goes both ways my friend. You could make it a law before Bill Smith thought it was a great idea to trade Wilson Ramos.... Teams swing and miss making trades for any position.

 

If Berrios is off-limits, that's fine, and I agree with you because he's the best pitching prospect we have. But if he's off-limits, unless these teams value Gordon, Kepler, or an MLB player like Plouffe, we're not going to get Lucroy, Norris, Susac, Plawecki, or whoever the flavor of the month is.

[Linus]

 

It goes both ways my friend. You could make it a law before Bill Smith thought it was a great idea to trade Wilson Ramos.... Teams swing and miss making trades for any position.

 

If Berrios is off-limits, that's fine, and I agree with you because he's the best pitching prospect we have. But if he's off-limits, unless these teams value Gordon, Kepler, or an MLB player like Plouffe, we're not going to get Lucroy, Norris, Susac, Plawecki, or whoever the flavor of the month is.

Agreed, which is why I think Plouffe is the best trade chip we have to fix this situation.