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Attention Mauer Haters!


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"That's all well and good, but this isn't little league or high school baseball or whatever"

 

I used to play with a guy who roomed with Bret Saberhagen in AAA. I recall a conversation we had where I asked him about the mental aspect of the game at that level. I was curious as all the witness I had borne indicated that the higher you go the greater the impact of the mental aspect. His opinion was at the ML level that's all there is. That's the one variable you work on to control. We're talkin bout focus, composure, poise (great word), control of emotion, work ethic, durability, etc. The handling of pressure situations and the attendant endocrinological (sorry bout this word but it's the only one that fits) issues most certainly falls under this heading. After all "this isn't little league or high school baseball or whatever". In the ML everybody throws hard and straight and can catch a ball, and runs fast and hits hard. Harnessing the mind separates one from competitors.

 

So I guess in my final analysis most of "the top 1% of the top 1% of the top 1%" have the same human frailties as us lesser beings.

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Verified Member

Brian, I know this is not my business but, why do you apologize to someone who attacks you? Your comment added to and furthered the discussion. There was absolutely nothing positive in his comment.

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Old-Timey Member

"That's all well and good, but this isn't little league or high school baseball or whatever"

 

I used to play with a guy who roomed with Bret Saberhagen in AAA. I recall a conversation we had where I asked him about the mental aspect of the game at that level. I was curious as all the witness I had borne indicated that the higher you go the greater the impact of the mental aspect. His opinion was at the ML level that's all there is. That's the one variable you work on to control. We're talkin bout focus, composure, poise (great word), control of emotion, work ethic, durability, etc. The handling of pressure situations and the attendant endocrinological (sorry bout this word but it's the only one that fits) issues most certainly falls under this heading. After all "this isn't little league or high school baseball or whatever". In the ML everybody throws hard and straight and can catch a ball, and runs fast and hits hard. Harnessing the mind separates one from competitors.

 

So I guess in my final analysis most of "the top 1% of the top 1% of the top 1%" have the same human frailties as us lesser beings.

Well said. As I stated before, the difference in ability between the top players is 1 or 2%, at most. A lot of opinions being thrown out in this thread with little understanding of the importance of this aspect.

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Brian, I know this is not my business but, why do you apologize to someone who attacks you? Your comment added to and furthered the discussion. There was absolutely nothing positive in his comment.

You are right Paul... I don't know why I did... I guess over the past couple of days I've been pretty strong on my feelings about quotes and unnecessary attacks on players and realize that I probably came on too strong even though I still fully believe what I typed. I don't want to be heated in discussion anymore... I want to get back to plain ol' discussion and I probably just threw fuel on another fire I'd just as soon not be lit.

 

I guess I just wanted to clarify that no matter what. My opinion is still only my opinion and it's the same for everyone here even those I disagree with. I'd still buy everyone a beer. Well not everyone cause I don't have that much money. You Paul... I'd find a way to buy ya a beer.

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Thank you, jokin.

I was thinkin the same thing... "A lot of opinions being thrown out in this thread with little understanding of the importance of this aspect."

I'm thinkin I could pick out the guys that laced 'em up.

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I'm not sure where to put that one but I assume it was directed at me. I know that I'm wrong frequently but like everyone else who is also wrong frequently... I'm not going to recognize when I am. I apologize if I've crossed some line in this discussion by saying that I believe it and part of that reason is based on playing and coaching.

No, pretty sure it was directed at the gentleman who has asserted that his previous experience has made him an expert on whether it is a conditional thing or a permanent state of being.

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Provisional Member

Thank you, jokin.

I was thinkin the same thing... "A lot of opinions being thrown out in this thread with little understanding of the importance of this aspect."

I'm thinkin I could pick out the guys that laced 'em up.

I doubt it.

 

Also I'm not saying pressure doesn't exist or whatever. But I am saying that if a player is that affected by pressure, especially after being in hundreds of pressure situations in high school/college, the minors, etc. they're probably not making it to the majors.

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Thank you, jokin.

I was thinkin the same thing... "A lot of opinions being thrown out in this thread with little understanding of the importance of this aspect."

I'm thinkin I could pick out the guys that laced 'em up.

I also think this opinion is bull, and I'm one who "laced 'em up" at a pretty high level in another sport (only because there was no baseball option for me after little league). To assume anyone who's played the game believes in "clutch" being a permanent state of being is ridiculous, just as it would be to have someone state that there is no such thing as "clutch". There are absolutely clutch moments where someone steps up, but human perception is to recall the things that match our preset notions and neglect and even dismiss those that do not match up to this perception. Clutch can happen, sure, but it's not an inherent trait and is not an ability.

 

If I believe there is no such thing as clutch, I'll notice every time a "clutch" player by reputation strikes out with runners in scoring position. If I believe that clutch is a quality that is permanent in a person, then I'll notice every time the same player hits a two-run double in that situation and conveniently forget (often not even intentionally) any time the player struck out. It's basic confirmation bias from a psychological sense, and any personality disorder loses their filter for one half of this, but the average person often finds beliefs (often of a religious or political backing, but sometimes along the lines of a sports argument) that they develop a similarly one-sided confirmation bias.

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Wish I'd said that....oh, I did. (Check the next post in thread).

lol... Great minds think a like... (sometimes obviously)... I noticed that you posted it after I posted. Was reading chronologically and responded and returned to read the rest and there you were.

 

It's funny how many people believe Mauer should be in the 2 hole. More At Bats... Good spot for his patience and contact and power of lack of.

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It's funny how many people believe Mauer should be in the 2 hole. More At Bats... Good spot for his patience and contact and power of lack of.

Most of BYTO was howling to put Mauer in the 2 spot back in 2006 or 2007. It just makes too much sense not to do it, especially if the Twins trade Span and lose part of the top of their lineup.

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If I believe there is no such thing as clutch, I'll notice every time a "clutch" player by reputation strikes out with runners in scoring position. If I believe that clutch is a quality that is permanent in a person, then I'll notice every time the same player hits a two-run double in that situation and conveniently forget (often not even intentionally) any time the player struck out. It's basic confirmation bias from a psychological sense, and any personality disorder loses their filter for one half of this, but the average person often finds beliefs (often of a religious or political backing, but sometimes along the lines of a sports argument) that they develop a similarly one-sided confirmation bias.

Yep. Basic Psychology 101.

 

Which is why we have statistics and numbers to sort truth from perception. In the case of baseball, we have piles and piles of statistics...

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Old-Timey Member

Look, no one's going to take "winning mindset" as a serious characteristic that people actually possess. I think everyone can agree psychology affects baseball (how could it not?), but you can be much more precise in how you go about identifying such elements. Of course people are going to cynical of concepts that can't be quantified, so you're going to have to be far more convincing than glibly mentioning the Yankees.

"No one", just because you said so? I don't think so. Just because something is admittedly difficult to quantiy, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Since Steinbrenner awoke the Yankees from their slumber years with CBS, the year-to-year expectations are simple- winning the World Series. These are expectations that were built into the culture of the organization. Their actions, in turn awoke the Red Sox from their slumber. In terms of the psychology of the breeding of the expectations of this culture, ie, a "winning mindset", this is called operant conditioning (OC). OC works through a set of reinforcers- stimuli that increase and/or strengthen the likelihood of the desired response. There are 4 types of reinforcement, they are all used by the Yankees to get that desired response: Positive and Negative Reinforcement, Punishment and Extinction. For Mariano Rivera, Positive Reinforcement was all that was needed, for Kyle Farnsworth (who had all the tools that Rivera had), none of them worked, up to and including the possibility of Extinction- he was gone.

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I also think this opinion is bull, and I'm one who "laced 'em up" at a pretty high level in another sport (only because there was no baseball option for me after little league). To assume anyone who's played the game believes in "clutch" being a permanent state of being is ridiculous, just as it would be to have someone state that there is no such thing as "clutch". There are absolutely clutch moments where someone steps up, but human perception is to recall the things that match our preset notions and neglect and even dismiss those that do not match up to this perception. Clutch can happen, sure, but it's not an inherent trait and is not an ability.

 

If I believe there is no such thing as clutch, I'll notice every time a "clutch" player by reputation strikes out with runners in scoring position. If I believe that clutch is a quality that is permanent in a person, then I'll notice every time the same player hits a two-run double in that situation and conveniently forget (often not even intentionally) any time the player struck out. It's basic confirmation bias from a psychological sense, and any personality disorder loses their filter for one half of this, but the average person often finds beliefs (often of a religious or political backing, but sometimes along the lines of a sports argument) that they develop a similarly one-sided confirmation bias.

I agree with everything you say... We all have our own perceptions on players that are hard to shake. Now factor in the opponent. Moments in pressure for a hitter could also be moments of pressure for a pitcher and he's battling his own demons.

 

Basically, I'm saying that I believe that moments of pressure come and they can make a hitter grip the bat too tight and cause a pitcher to open his shoulders and over stride when the chips are down. The hitter that keeps his head can still strikeout to a pitcher that has kept his head or he can rope a line drive to Centerfielder for an out and the pitcher can make a great pitch that gets golfed out of the park by a guy who is shaking in his boots.

 

It's impossible to quantify because there are so many factors but in the end we are talking about the decrease and increase of odds from a mental standpoint and I believe it.

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I also think this opinion is bull, and I'm one who "laced 'em up" at a pretty high level in another sport (only because there was no baseball option for me after little league). To assume anyone who's played the game believes in "clutch" being a permanent state of being is ridiculous, just as it would be to have someone state that there is no such thing as "clutch". There are absolutely clutch moments where someone steps up, but human perception is to recall the things that match our preset notions and neglect and even dismiss those that do not match up to this perception. Clutch can happen, sure, but it's not an inherent trait and is not an ability.

 

If I believe there is no such thing as clutch, I'll notice every time a "clutch" player by reputation strikes out with runners in scoring position. If I believe that clutch is a quality that is permanent in a person, then I'll notice every time the same player hits a two-run double in that situation and conveniently forget (often not even intentionally) any time the player struck out. It's basic confirmation bias from a psychological sense, and any personality disorder loses their filter for one half of this, but the average person often finds beliefs (often of a religious or political backing, but sometimes along the lines of a sports argument) that they develop a similarly one-sided confirmation bias.

I'm not sure what opinion you feel is bull. The aspect referred to in the comment you cited was the mental aspect. Do you believe applying your mind to baseball is bull? Do you believe all ML players handle stress/pressure the same?

 

I agree with you about clutch as I've commented earlier in this thread. To save you any searching I'll paraphrase what I said earlier. I believe what people see as clutch is the ability to confront a high pressure situation without whithering. Without back down. Without backoff. However frequently or infrequently. While the competition whithers to a degree. What is mistakenly seen as "stepping up" is in reality "not stepping back" with the competition.

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Basically, I'm saying that I believe that moments of pressure come and they can make a hitter grip the bat too tight and cause a pitcher to open his shoulders and over stride when the chips are down. The hitter that keeps his head can still strikeout to a pitcher that has kept his head or he can rope a line drive to Centerfielder for an out and the pitcher can make a great pitch that gets golfed out of the park by a guy who is shaking in his boots.

 

It's impossible to quantify because there are so many factors but in the end we are talking about the decrease and increase of odds from a mental standpoint and I believe it.

Yep, and major league players and major league coaches and major league managers say that it happens.

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I agree with everything you say... We all have our own perceptions on players that are hard to shake. Now factor in the opponent. Moments in pressure for a hitter could also be moments of pressure for a pitcher and he's battling his own demons.

 

Basically, I'm saying that I believe that moments of pressure come and they can make a hitter grip the bat too tight and cause a pitcher to open his shoulders and over stride when the chips are down. The hitter that keeps his head can still strikeout to a pitcher that has kept his head or he can rope a line drive to Centerfielder for an out and the pitcher can make a great pitch that gets golfed out of the park by a guy who is shaking in his boots.

 

It's impossible to quantify because there are so many factors but in the end we are talking about the decrease and increase of odds from a mental standpoint and I believe it.

The only way to overcome something with a lot of factors (such as this) is through raw data and lots of it. The thing is that baseball has that in spades.

 

I'm not pretending that baseball players are robots. But this isn't the NBA where a pissed off Patrick Ewing can dominate a game through sheer physicality. This isn't football where Lawrence Taylor can turn into The Terminator and literally beat up the opposition.

 

No, this is baseball. A cold, calculating game where the goal is to remove emotion from the moment, not feed on it. The more amped up a player gets, the worse they will probably perform at the plate or on the mound. Batters will grip the bat too tightly and swing at pitches they normally wouldn't swing at, pitchers will wind up and overthrow the ball.

 

Which is why I'll buy into the "some players at better at calming themselves down" arguments. But even then, does that make a huge difference? Unlikely, because calming down simply means that they become the player they are in a random June baseball game, not some superhuman powerhouse of baseball. Baseball is a sport of failure, probably the only sport of its kind where failure plays such a prominent role in the game. And statistics don't support that some guys are better at failing less under pressure.

 

Again, this isn't conjecture. This has been shown time and time again across the history of the sport by people who know a hell of a lot more about math than anyone on this board.

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I'm not sure what opinion you feel is bull. The aspect referred to in the comment you cited was the mental aspect. Do you believe applying your mind to baseball is bull? Do you believe all ML players handle stress/pressure the same?

I apologize for not being more clear. I do not believe that one must play an organized sport to a high level to understand basic human psychology as it applies to sports, and I struggle with those who insist that there *must* be something outside of that psychology that an athlete possesses.

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Let me ask everyone this question. In the Major Leagues... Forget about any other level... In the Major Leagues...

 

Let's say Game 162 of the year... A win gets you into the playoffs... A loss and you are out. Down by one run.... Bottom of the ninth... Two Outs Runners on 1st and 2nd.

 

Does anyone believe that there are players who are absolutely thrilled to draw a walk in that situation?

 

Does anyone believe that there are players who are pissed that they drew a walk?

 

Yes and Yes is my answer.

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Provisional Member

Let me ask everyone this question. In the Major Leagues... Forget about any other level... In the Major Leagues...

 

Let's say Game 162 of the year... A win gets you into the playoffs... A loss and you are out. Down by one run.... Bottom of the ninth... Two Outs Runners on 1st and 2nd.

 

Does anyone believe that there are players who are absolutely thrilled to draw a walk in that situation?

 

Does anyone believe that there are players who are pissed that they drew a walk?

 

Yes and Yes is my answer.

Probably, but I doubt that says anything about how good of a player he is. I'm sure there are a lot of players of the Albert Pujols ilk who would be happy with a walk and players like Jeff Francoeur who would be pissed.

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The only way to overcome something with a lot of factors (such as this) is through raw data and lots of it. The thing is that baseball has that in spades.

 

I'm not pretending that baseball players are robots. But this isn't the NBA where a pissed off Patrick Ewing can dominate a game through sheer physicality. This isn't football where Lawrence Taylor can turn into The Terminator and literally beat up the opposition.

 

No, this is baseball. A cold, calculating game where the goal is to remove emotion from the moment, not feed on it. The more amped up a player gets, the worse they will probably perform at the plate or on the mound. Batters will grip the bat too tightly and swing at pitches they normally wouldn't swing at, pitchers will wind up and overthrow the ball.

 

Which is why I'll buy into the "some players at better at calming themselves down" arguments. But even then, does that make a huge difference? Unlikely, because calming down simply means that they become the player they are in a random June baseball game, not some superhuman powerhouse of baseball. Baseball is a sport of failure, probably the only sport of its kind where failure plays such a prominent role in the game. And statistics don't support that some guys are better at failing less under pressure.

 

Again, this isn't conjecture. This has been shown time and time again across the history of the sport by people who know a hell of a lot more about math than anyone on this board.

To me... This is the essence of my problem with the sole use of statistics. Too much human element in the game of baseball to be quantified accurately. Trevor Plouffe can't be explained with stats... His stats alone would normally get him cut. He got hot... Why... In my opinion... He was able to stop pressing and started swinging at better pitches to hit and he started to hit and it snowballed. Let's see what happen when his timing gets off again.

 

Baseball is exactly what you say... It's a game of failure and dealing with that failure is the issue. Stats can't quantify when players press or don't press. They can't quantify when they step in the bucket or pull off the ball. They can only quantify how they have done so far and if a player gets it all put together. The old stats don't really mean much at all. It's a whole new ball game.

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That's the usual response from someone who didn't.

It's a strawman argument. Psychology is not unique to sports and the mysticism that you have to "lace 'em up" to know what pressure feels like is ridiculous. Stage performers feel pressure. Members of the military feel pressure of the worst sort. Almost everybody feels "pressure" in their day-to-day lives at some point.

 

Pyschology and pressure and the human mind is not unique to the sports world.

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Ben, you took issue with my "lace 'em up" jab. Sorry. Didn't mean to insult anyone. But if you want to find out about making bread you ask the baker. Not the bakery's accountant.

 

And I don't consider this "outside of that psychology", but some players handle pressure/stress better than other players.

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Again, I don't get this whole "elevate" thing. If the fastest a person can run is a 4.4 40 and then they suddenly turn in a 3.9 in the clutch, you may have a point, but they are naturally limited to what their skill level can provide. Jeter is a great player, but Mr. November is a joke, because while Jeter can come through in the clutch, he fails too, we just don't remember the failures. No one remembers Puckets other at bats in game 6 of the 1991 world series, but every single person who watched that game remembers his final one. Does that make Puckett clutch? I don't think so...

 

What I do think, however, is that while people cannot play beyond their skill level, they can certainly play below it. Francisco Liriano is a perfect example of that. He's got the skill level to be a perennial cy young contender, but you never know from start to start whether or not he needs his head screwed on tigher or not. He chokes. I'd bet that a lot of players do this from time to time...

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To me... This is the essence of my problem with the sole use of statistics. Too much human element in the game of baseball to be quantified accurately. Trevor Plouffe can't be explained with stats... His stats alone would normally get him cut. He got hot... Why... In my opinion... He was able to stop pressing and started swinging at better pitches to hit and he started to hit and it snowballed. Let's see what happen when his timing gets off again.

 

Baseball is exactly what you say... It's a game of failure and dealing with that failure is the issue. Stats can't quantify when players press or don't press. They can't quantify when they step in the bucket or pull off the ball. They can only quantify how they have done so far and if a player gets it all put together. The old stats don't really mean much at all. It's a whole new ball game.

Finally, a voice of reason. What's that they say about lies, damned lies and statistics? Our human survival is set up on the concept that perfect uniformity and efficiency is a bad thing through the value of DNA recombination, wherein the more random the gene rearrangement, the stronger the offspring, and in turn, the species, are against biological and environmental threats.

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Old-Timey Member

Most of BYTO was howling to put Mauer in the 2 spot back in 2006 or 2007. It just makes too much sense not to do it, especially if the Twins trade Span and lose part of the top of their lineup.

I believe Mauer was biologically pre-determined to bat in the 2 spot.

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Old-Timey Member

It's a strawman argument. Psychology is not unique to sports and the mysticism that you have to "lace 'em up" to know what pressure feels like is ridiculous. Stage performers feel pressure. Members of the military feel pressure of the worst sort. Almost everybody feels "pressure" in their day-to-day lives at some point.

 

Pyschology and pressure and the human mind is not unique to the sports world.

No one said anything about uniqueness to sport, quite the opposite. It's a trait that has survival value.

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