Jump to content
Twins Daily
  • Create Account

Attention Mauer Haters!


Recommended Posts

This sentence got me thinking about something I once pondered probably entirely too much once upon a time. And that's the psychology of the fan that loves to bag on the superstar athlete. I never could understand why a person who purports to be a fan of a game and even a particular team would go on and on and on at times about how much they despise someone who is fantastic at that game (and often for their team) for no apparent reason. During the time I really gave this a lot of consideration, I tried to notice what it was people had to say. The overwhelming thing I kept seeing and hearing and reading was essentially an attempt to inflate themselves in the way of the, "Back in my day..." personality. The "I'd be so much tougher/better/etc" if I were him or the "my expectations are so high" to imply that they're somehow morally superior. Naturally, they don't often quite phrase it exactly that way, but the motivation appeared the same an awful lot.

 

I guess you may be putting that in the brain dead moron category.

I think people expect perfection out of everyone other than themselves.

 

I don't know... But it's all over the place. Like the fenced in backyard of a dog daycare.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 228
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Yawn...when is the next Promote Sano thread? I miss those thrilling discussions. With you Barks.

Well, Twins aren't contending this year. Why not just call him up and let him figure out at the big league level? Seems to be fool-proof logic these days.....

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Community Moderator

 

Don't hate Mauer... Hate the Yankees... That's what I do... and it feels much better to hate the Yankees BTW.

 

The Yankees are perhaps the most obvious example of why salaries are where they are. They out bid teams for the services of players and that drives the prices up.

Good one Brian. I think that you have hit the nail on the head here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Verified Member

Runs scored is partly a reflection on what you do once you're on base (advancing via steal, hit, "taking the extra base", WP/PB, etc.), and partly by how many HRs you hit, as well as who is hitting behind you, and Mauer has had a series of great hitters behind him, probably who hit at a higher level than those behind Puck, so yes, it is partly Mauer's fault and to Puck's credit.

 

Regarding RBIs/RISP-- Fine, I am aware of this stat as it is front and center regarding Mauer's performance all the time- this is what is so confounding about Mauer's RISP numbers while batting in the 3 spot. Crunch the numbers around the league who bat #3 which is a premier RBI spot in the order, and year after year Mauer is in the bottom half for RBI. There are many factors that come into play, but you can't simply say it was because Puckett played in more games that he has . Both batted largely in the same spot in the order, Puck averaged 149 games/yr and Mauer averaged 134 games/yr with that huge differential in average RBI/yr, far greater than the 15 less games played. This suggests there are other factors with RISP that have to account for this difference- IE, how many of Joe's hits with RISP actually drive in a runner, and what is the SLG% for both with RISP? Plus, what is the value of Runs Created when not in RISP situations?

He doesn't hit home runs. Mystery solved.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Old-Timey Member

Runs scored aren't valued by stat hounds. They're the other side of the RBI coin, largely dependent on what others do behind you and little to do with your own play past "you got on base". Mauer is quite a bit better at getting on base than Puckett. It's not his fault the guys behind him aren't driving him home.

 

As for RBIs, well... You're just wrong on that account. Here are the career splits for Mauer and Puckett.

 

Mauer:

RISP: .953 OPS

Men On: .917 OPS

 

Puckett:

RISP: 879 OPS

Men On: .874 OPS

 

Naturally, Mauer also has a much better OBP in those situations.

 

As for "team leaders", I don't buy into that very much (or at all, really). A single player can only do so much. Puckett had great playoff moments for sure but so much of that is luck and timing in a SSS that I can't put much weight in it (and it's not as if Mauer hasn't had his shining moments in critical situations).

 

SSS as it may be...

 

Kirby Puckett postseason record slash line: 309/362/536/898

Joe Mauer postseason record slash line: 286/359/314/673

 

Kirby got lucky in his 2 post-seasons with: 10XBH/5 Home Runs/16 RBI

Mauer was unlucky in his 3 post-seasons: 1XBH/0 Home Runs/1 RBI

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Old-Timey Member

He doesn't hit home runs. Mystery solved.

Mystery further solved and further support on why Puckett is more valuable (particularly in the 3 spot):

 

Kirby's power production in his 10 seasons as a power player, average XBH/season: Doubles-37.3/yr Triples 4.0/yr Homers 20.3/yr

 

Mauer's power production (while throwing out his short rookie year and this year): Doubles-29.7/yr Triples 2.1/yr Homers 11.1/yr

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Verified Member

Mystery further solved and further support on why Puckett is more valuable (particularly in the 3 spot):

 

Kirby's power production in his 10 seasons as a power player, average XBH/season: Doubles-37.3/yr Triples 4.0/yr Homers 20.3/yr

 

Mauer's power production (while throwing out his short rookie year and this year): Doubles-29.7/yr Triples 2.1/yr Homers 11.1/yr

Is Power Player a new position?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Old-Timey Member

Is Power Player a new position?

No, but are you possibly too young to remember Puck's first two years with the Twins? His SLG% in those two years were a paltry .336 and .385. With his diminutive and somewhat unusual body shape, there weren't many people who predicted the type of "Power Player" that he would morph into. In the last 10 years of his career, his SLG% was over 500 five times and he only had one season under .460 (.446 in 1990), as you can see, a totally different player from years one and two.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

OK, so Mauer is no longer a full-time Catcher. He's a half-time Catcher, who plays the rest of his games at 1B/DH. Which means that instead of him playing 110-120 games behind the plate, plus a handful of games at DH, and needing a bunch of days off to rest his aching legs (particularly as he ages), we get him for ~80 games behind the plate plus another 65+ games with him in the lineup at 1B/DH, and maybe his legs hold up better as the years go by. I'll take that.

 

And, even as he's been splitting time between Catcher and the 1B/DH role, he's still been worth 2.5 fWAR through the first 3 months of the season. That not only makes him the most valuable "Catcher" in the league, but--get this--it makes him the most valuable "1st baseman" in the AL to this point, too. If he keeps it up, he ought to wind up the season worth 5-5.5 fWAR. Even at a cost of $23M/yr., I don't think the front office could reasonably expect a guy to be better than that; any value above that level should be considered a special bonus. (Fwiw, FanGraphs says that anything above 5 WAR is well worth $23M.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Old-Timey Member

OK, so Mauer is no longer a full-time Catcher. He's a half-time Catcher, who plays the rest of his games at 1B/DH. Which means that instead of him playing 110-120 games behind the plate, plus a handful of games at DH, and needing a bunch of days off to rest his aching legs (particularly as he ages), we get him for ~80 games behind the plate plus another 65+ games with him in the lineup at 1B/DH, and maybe his legs hold up better as the years go by. I'll take that.

 

And, even as he's been splitting time between Catcher and the 1B/DH role, he's still been worth 2.5 fWAR through the first 3 months of the season. That not only makes him the most valuable "Catcher" in the league, but--get this--it makes him the most valuable "1st baseman" in the AL to this point, too. If he keeps it up, he ought to wind up the season worth 5-5.5 fWAR. Even at a cost of $23M/yr., I don't think the front office could reasonably expect a guy to be better than that; any value above that level should be considered a special bonus. (Fwiw, FanGraphs says that anything above 5 WAR is well worth $23M.)

As of today, Mauer is on pace to catch only 72 games.

 

Doesn't the positional adjustment score skew the WAR number for C relative to 1B? Konerko and Encarnacion are having monster years at the plate and Mauer's offensive numbers are best when he's playing catcher, not so much at 1B/DH.

 

See below:

 

Here are the full FanGraphs positional adjustments used in WAR:

Catcher: +12.5 runs (all are per 162 defensive games)

First Base: -12.5 runs

Second Base: +2.5 runs

Third Base: +2.5 runs

Shortstop: +7.5 runs

Left Field: -7.5 runs

Center Field: +2.5 runs

Right Field: -7.5 runs

Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

 

As noted above, these values are calculated on a per 162 defensive game basis, and players receive weighted credit for each position that they play.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

As of today, Mauer is on pace to catch only 72 games.

 

Doesn't the positional adjustment score skew the WAR number for C relative to 1B? Konerko and Encarnacion are having monster years at the plate and Mauer's offensive numbers are best when he's playing catcher, not so much at 1B/DH.

 

See below:

 

Here are the full FanGraphs positional adjustments used in WAR:

Catcher: +12.5 runs (all are per 162 defensive games)

First Base: -12.5 runs

Second Base: +2.5 runs

Third Base: +2.5 runs

Shortstop: +7.5 runs

Left Field: -7.5 runs

Center Field: +2.5 runs

Right Field: -7.5 runs

Designated Hitter: -17.5 runs

 

As noted above, these values are calculated on a per 162 defensive game basis, and players receive weighted credit for each position that they play.

But his games at C are always going to be worth more than a 1B, and he's better than Encarnacion by 0.2 WAR and Konerko by 0.3 WAR at this time with C value included. Value is very dependent on position, not just offensive numbers. When he's healthy, Mauer is a very good catcher defensively, so not only does he get positional value, but he gets above average value for that position.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Good comparison. All HOFer's except for Ichiro who is a shoe in when his time comes.

 

FDG opened up a can of worms when he started this thread.

 

The Mauer contract/production talk is old, stale and boring.

 

It seems apparent that he has to have a 2009 season every year for people to pause their mob mentality and quench their thirst for his blood.

 

This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again. This subject is a dead horse that will be beaten, get up again, and be beaten again.....

The Minnesota bi-polar will never ever allow this argument to die. 30 years from now Mauer will be retired, in the HOF, and people will still be talking about how his contract was terrible. It really doesn't matter how well he plays. Their will always be crackpots out there who can never let it go.

 

BTW - To everybody complaining about how Mauer is paid too much and didn't give a hometown discount, remember this. If you, average joe, were asked to give a hometown discount in your job would you? Would you in Mauer's shoes? Would you turn down millions of dollars if it was available to you? If you said yes, you are not being honest with us or yourself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You'd rather round all your statistics, huh?

Uhhh, yeah, that's exactly what I said. Congrats on completely missing what should have been a pretty obvious point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You'd rather round all your statistics, huh?

I think he's saying that when referencing WAR, it's best to say things like "Player A has a WAR of 2.3 while Player B has a WAR of 2.5". That's a significant difference from "Player A has a WAR of 0.3 while Player B has a WAR of 0.5", even though the difference between the players is the same.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

SSS as it may be...

 

Kirby Puckett postseason record slash line: 309/362/536/898

Joe Mauer postseason record slash line: 286/359/314/673

 

Kirby got lucky in his 2 post-seasons with: 10XBH/5 Home Runs/16 RBI

Mauer was unlucky in his 3 post-seasons: 1XBH/0 Home Runs/1 RBI

Kirby was huge in the postseason, without a doubt. He led the Twins to two championships.

 

That doesn't negate luck. In any SSS, players can look horrible or world-beating with just a few swings of the bat. Give Joe and Kirby more playoff ABs and they both progress/regress to their personal (regular season) mean.

 

1987 and 1991 were great. Puckett was fantastic. That doesn't mean I'm going to bash Joe because he struggled in 40 postseason ABs when he's a better player than Kirby in the regular season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Runs scored aren't valued by stat hounds. They're the other side of the RBI coin, largely dependent on what others do behind you and little to do with your own play past "you got on base". Mauer is quite a bit better at getting on base than Puckett. It's not his fault the guys behind him aren't driving him home.

 

As for RBIs, well... You're just wrong on that account. Here are the career splits for Mauer and Puckett.

 

Mauer:

RISP: .953 OPS

Men On: .917 OPS

 

Puckett:

RISP: 879 OPS

Men On: .874 OPS

 

Naturally, Mauer also has a much better OBP in those situations.

 

As for "team leaders", I don't buy into that very much (or at all, really). A single player can only do so much. Puckett had great playoff moments for sure but so much of that is luck and timing in a SSS that I can't put much weight in it (and it's not as if Mauer hasn't had his shining moments in critical situations).

Just a nitpick here, but personally I'm not a fan of using OPS as an indicator of success with RISP.

 

If there's a runner on 3rd, or a runner on 2nd, or runners on 2nd and 3rd, I don't want the best hitter on my team trying to work a walk. I want him to get a hit. This also eliminates intentional walks in those situations.

 

Career with RISP

Mauer BA .339 SLG .497

Puckett BA .322 SLG .496

 

So if you eliminate OBP with RISP, Mauer is still slightly better with RISP than Puckett was.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just a nitpick here, but personally I'm not a fan of using OPS as an indicator of success with RISP.

 

If there's a runner on 3rd, or a runner on 2nd, or runners on 2nd and 3rd, I don't want the best hitter on my team trying to work a walk. I want him to get a hit. This also eliminates intentional walks in those situations.

 

Career with RISP

Mauer BA .339 SLG .497

Puckett BA .322 SLG .496

 

So if you eliminate OBP with RISP, Mauer is still slightly better with RISP than Puckett was.

Personally, I believe that a hitter is a hitter. He shouldn't change his approach based on the plate appearance. If he's an OBP guy and runners are on, he's an OBP guy and should take the walk if given it.

 

To top it off, he's a #3 hitter. Taking a walk just puts another guy on base for cleanup duties.

 

Also, RISP doesn't mean only "second base". If there are guys on first and second, a walk advances the runners and adds another guy on the paths. If the bases are loaded, a walk drives in a run.

 

While I can understand not putting as much weight in OBP as SLG with RISP, let's not pretend that it doesn't matter, either. It's still important.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Old-Timey Member

Off Topic: I still think they should move Mauer up in the lineup to give him more at bats.

Span

Mauer

Willingham

Plouffe

Morneau

Doumit

Revere

 

That is a pretty damn solid 1-7.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Old-Timey Member

Kirby was huge in the postseason, without a doubt. He led the Twins to two championships.

 

That doesn't negate luck. In any SSS, players can look horrible or world-beating with just a few swings of the bat. Give Joe and Kirby more playoff ABs and they both progress/regress to their personal (regular season) mean.

 

1987 and 1991 were great. Puckett was fantastic. That doesn't mean I'm going to bash Joe because he struggled in 40 postseason ABs when he's a better player than Kirby in the regular season.

I've played on a multiple-national-championship college team and coached multiple state and national champion high school age teams. My best teams were with players who, at their own particular level, had what Kirby had, what Jack Morris had, what Koufax had, what Bob Gibson had, what Larry Bird had in basketball....as great as they were as regular season all-time greats, they routinely progressed away from the mean at playoff time. I definitely don't want to be characterized as a basher, the numbers are what they are, and I look forward to the day that Mauer gets his next chance to step up to the opportunity.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Old-Timey Member

Off Topic: I still think they should move Mauer up in the lineup to give him more at bats.

Span

Mauer

Willingham

Plouffe

Morneau

Doumit

Revere

 

That is a pretty damn solid 1-7.

I love it and have advocated for Mauer at the 2 spot from the time he got here. The only possible variation where I differ is having Revere in the 9 spot to have him only 1 away from Mauer's spot, with Carroll/Casilla in the 8 and Dozier in the 7.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've played on a multiple-national-championship college team and coached multiple state and national champion high school age teams. My best teams were with players who, at their own particular level, had what Kirby had, what Jack Morris had, what Koufax had, what Bob Gibson had, what Larry Bird had in basketball....as great as they were as regular season all-time greats, they routinely progressed away from the mean at playoff time. I definitely don't want to be characterized as a basher, the numbers are what they are, and I look forward to the day that Mauer gets his next chance to step up to the opportunity.

Jack Morris was basically the same player in the playoffs that he was in the rest of his career. Did he have an amazing game seven in 1991? Yes, he did. But he also had his fair share of playoff clunkers. Derek Jeter is basically the same player in the playoffs that he has been in the regular season. Sandy Koufax was a monster in the playoffs but that's most due to the fact that he was a monster pitcher, period. His playoff ERA, while ridiculous, isn't that much better than his regular season ERA during his dominant seasons in the early 60s. The same applies to Bob Gibson. Lengthy studies have been done on this subject and in baseball, players have clutch moments. But there is no discernable proof that particular players are consistently clutch.

 

As humans, we have a tendency to remember good moments and discard mediocre ones. We remember Mr. November but don't remember the two times Jeter may have weakly popped out earlier in the game. Some players, through SSS, have amazing postseason numbers. But as those players get more playoff exposure, they tend to regress to their mean or in cases like Barry Bonds, progress back up to their mean (Bonds' playoff stats are still below his career norms but after his 2002 playoff run, they climbed relatively close to his career average).

 

The great thing about baseball is that we have a wealth of numbers to look at and break down the game; far more than any other sport. If Derek Jeter truly was "clutch", wouldn't he perform just as well in a tie game in the bottom of the ninth in June as he would in the playoffs? The game is on the line and if he could simply flip a switch into "clutch mode", he would do it all the time, all season long. The numbers show that this simply isn't the case and if a player can't deliver the "clutch" goods in June, what makes anyone think he'd be able to do it in October? Because the game is even more on the line? That doesn't pass any kind of critical thinking test. Derek Jeter is a very good baseball player whose "game on the line" stats are the same as his "all other times" stats. Why? Because, if given enough playoff opportunities, every player ends up that way. If there truly was a clutch hitter, we'd be able to identify them easily based on their regular season performances. We can't because they just don't exist.

 

Here is a great article on the subject:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2656

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Old-Timey Member

I love it and have advocated for Mauer at the 2 spot from the time he got here. The only possible variation where I differ is having Revere in the 9 spot to have him only 1 away from Mauer's spot, with Carroll/Casilla in the 8 and Dozier in the 7.

I'm wondering if they do it if/when Span is traded.

 

A lineup of:

Revere

Mauer

Willingham

Plouffe

Morneau

Doumit

Parmelee

Dozier

Caroll/whoever

 

would prob make the most sense no?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Old-Timey Member

Jack Morris was basically the same player in the playoffs that he was in the rest of his career. Did he have an amazing game seven in 1991? Yes, he did. But he also had his fair share of playoff clunkers. Derek Jeter is basically the same player in the playoffs that he has been in the regular season. Sandy Koufax was a monster in the playoffs but that's most due to the fact that he was a monster pitcher, period. His playoff ERA, while ridiculous, isn't that much better than his regular season ERA during his dominant seasons in the early 60s. The same applies to Bob Gibson. Lengthy studies have been done on this subject and in baseball, players have clutch moments. But there is no discernable proof that particular players are consistently clutch.

 

As humans, we have a tendency to remember good moments and discard mediocre ones. We remember Mr. November but don't remember the two times Jeter may have weakly popped out earlier in the game. Some players, through SSS, have amazing postseason numbers. But as those players get more playoff exposure, they tend to regress to their mean or in cases like Barry Bonds, progress back up to their mean (Bonds' playoff stats are still below his career norms but after his 2002 playoff run, they climbed relatively close to his career average).

 

Here is a great article on the subject:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2656

I didn't bring up Bonds or Jeter for a reason. How about Reggie Jackson and Michael Jordan? I have to disagree with your suppostion, as I have personally discerned the difference firsthand on numerous occasions. There is just something different in the psychological profile in players like these. You looked at the numbers, which are the averages for the regular season, playing the KC Athletics/Royals, Chicago Cubs, St Louis Browns, and the other all-too-numerous typical bottom dwellers of their eras. These players are not just meeting, but exceeding their average numbers, ......and doing it against the best teams in MLB/NBA.......who all have the chance to run saturation study/scout profiles over 7 game series to attack any weak tendencies......playing in front of packed houses.......in front of 10s of Millions in the Mass Media..... and under severe scrutiny from gonzo journalists and crazed fans.

 

Jack Morris did not regress. Michael Jordan did not regress. Kirby did not regress. Koufax did not regress. I hope Joe gets many more chances to regress!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I didn't bring up Bonds or Jeter for a reason. How about Reggie Jackson and Michael Jordan? I have to disagree with your suppostion, as I have personally discerned the difference firsthand on numerous occasions. There is just something different in the psychological profile in players like these. You looked at the numbers, which are the averages for the regular season, playing the KC Athletics/Royals, Chicago Cubs, St Louis Browns, and the other all-too-numerous typical bottom dwellers of their eras. These players are not just meeting, but exceeding their average numbers, ......and doing it against the best teams in MLB/NBA.......who all have the chance to run saturation study/scout profiles over 7 game series to attack any weak tendencies......playing in front of packed houses.......in front of 10s of Millions in the Mass Media..... and under severe scrutiny from gonzo journalists and crazed fans.

 

Jack Morris did not regress. Michael Jordan did not regress. Kirby did not regress. Koufax did not regress. I hope Joe gets many more chances to regress!

I was editing my post while you typed this.

 

The great thing about baseball is that we have a wealth of numbers to look at and break down the game; far more than any other sport. If Derek Jeter truly was "clutch", wouldn't he perform just as well in a tie game in the bottom of the ninth in June as he would in the playoffs? The game is on the line and if he could simply flip a switch into "clutch mode", he would do it all the time, all season long. The numbers show that this simply isn't the case and if a player can't deliver the "clutch" goods in June, what makes anyone think he'd be able to do it in October? Because the game is even more on the line? That doesn't pass any kind of critical thinking test. Derek Jeter is a very good baseball player whose "game on the line" stats are the same as his "all other times" stats. Why? Because, if given enough playoff opportunities, every player ends up that way. If there truly was a clutch hitter, we'd be able to identify them easily based on their regular season performances. We can't because they just don't exist.

 

Again, first hand experience means nothing. The human mind plays tricks on everyone. You remember a clutch hit but you won't remember the strikeout in the sixth that could have started a rally had he hit a double. You don't remember Jeter striking out to end game six when he could have hit a single to win the game. But you do remember his game seven shot the next night. Did Jeter not want to win that game six? Do you honestly believe that to be the case? What about that all-important game in mid-September when the game was tied in the eighth and he grounded into a double play? Did he only fail because he didn't want to win badly enough? That doesn't make any sense.

 

We have mountains of statistics to show that clutch players do not exist. These are professionals who want to win and if it was as easy as just "trying harder" or "focusing more", we'd see clutch players perform throughout the regular season.

 

PS. Reggie Jackson's playoff performances are entirely in line with his regular season play. He played the most playoff games during his prime and in ~320 playoff ABs, OPSed at .880. His career OPS was .845. Pretty much what you'd expect considering that when he played most of his playoff games, he was routinely OPSing at .900+ during the regular season.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

The Twins Daily Caretaker Fund
The Twins Daily Caretaker Fund

You all care about this site. The next step is caring for it. We’re asking you to caretake this site so it can remain the premier Twins community on the internet.

×
×
  • Create New...