Charleston

[DaveW]

Good lord, what a terrible terrible tragedy, no matter what you think about religion and/or gun rights etc this just shouldn't happen in ANY country, much less a developed one.

 

As Americans we like to point at other countries and say "Hey they repress their people, or Hey, look at all the awful **** going on over there" but it's time for us to take a good hard look in the mirror and figure out what the hell we are doing wrong that sets up a scenario where a 21 year old KID can just decide to walk in and gun down 9 innocents who are doing nothing more then discussing their religion in an apparent safe and open setting.

[TheLeviathan]

A pretty heinous act to be certain and impossible to comprehend for me.

[drjim]

I think it is conventional wisdom in security circles that the lone wolf white supremacist is the biggest terror threat in the country.

 

Would be nice if it is was a little harder for them to get guns. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think it is conventional wisdom in security circles that the lone wolf white supremacist is the biggest terror threat in the country.

 

Really?  I know that lone wolfs or small sleeper cells are a major threat, mostly because it is relatively easy to organize without an online footprint.

[Bark's Lounge]

I loathe racists and I loathe religious extremists.

 

It's a damn shame what has happened, but it will happen from time to time. Some things slip through the cracks.

 

Judging from this kids hairdo, it is obvious he is a nut ball. I read his dad bought him a gun for his 21st birthday - I don't know the specifics, but that cannot be good. My guess is that his dad has racist tendencies (A Race War is Comin' Yuk, Yuk).

 

It might seem like we have an overload of bad things happening here and in the world the last year or so and I believe that to be true. But bad things have been happening every year since modern man took the stage.

 

I want to say I am very remorseful for the victims and their families. I hope they did not die in vain and their legacies live on.

 

As for Mr. Bowl Cut, he should hope he is not put in the general prison population when he is sentenced as he will experience some very, very uncomfortable positions.

 

If that's the case, a tear will not drop my eye.

[drjim]

 

Really?  I know that lone wolfs or small sleeper cells are a major threat, mostly because it is relatively easy to organize without an online footprint.

 

I read this from tweets from some journalists that I respect. It comes from a 2009 DHS report. I dug into it a little more since I wrote that and it doesn't seem quite as straightforward as I was lead to believe.

 

I think the general thinking is that organized groups are easier to track than lone wolves for the reasons you said but I am now more skeptical that white supremacist groups are necessarily the biggest single threat among lone wolves, but I also can't think of a type that would be more dangerous.

[DaveW]

He will never see anything close to Gen Pop, he would be killed within 15 minutes.

 

The kid likely showed some serious signs prior to this, they should hold his knucklehead dad accountable as wel for literally handing this scumbag a loaded weapon.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I read this from tweets from some journalists that I respect. It comes from a 2009 DHS report. I dug into it a little more since I wrote that and it doesn't seem quite as straightforward as I was lead to believe.

 

I think the general thinking is that organized groups are easier to track than lone wolves for the reasons you said but I am now more skeptical that white supremacist groups are necessarily the biggest single threat among lone wolves, but I also can't think of a type that would be more dangerous.

 

Well, I can, but certainly this type of kid (if a white supremicist and not just a general nut bag) isn't far behind.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I have to admit that my interest in The Daily Show has waned in the wake of The Colbert Report and, more recently, Last Week Tonight.

 

But then Stewart does stuff like this and it reminds me of his greatness. I haven't seen anyone else cover this with such honesty and sadness.

 

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/kb2h42/charleston-church-shooting

[DaveW]

What really bothers me the most about this is just how it all went down. A group of African Americans are holding their weekly bible study, a weird looking 21 year old white kid shows up and they welcome him with open arms, include him in the talk and treat him warmly.

 

An hour later 9 are dead, there only sin was showing love and acceptance to everyone and having an open door policy. If there was a gathering of 9-10 white people down in the south, even in a church and a 21 year old "weird acting" black guy just showed up, do you think they would be as non judgmental and as open as the 9 who died the other day? I don't think so.

 

I just can't wrap my head around how messed up all of that is.

[drjim]

 

What really bothers me the most about this is just how it all went down. A group of African Americans are holding their weekly bible study, a weird looking 21 year old white kid shows up and they welcome him with open arms, include him in the talk and treat him warmly.

 

An hour later 9 are dead, there only sin was showing love and acceptance to everyone and having an open door policy. If there was a gathering of 9-10 white people down in the south, even in a church and a 21 year old "weird acting" black guy just showed up, do you think they would be as non judgmental and as open as the 9 who died the other day? I don't think so.

 

I just can't wrap my head around how messed up all of that is.

 

There is a quote I saw from the killer that he almost didn't go through with it because the people were so nice to him during that hour. That is some demonic stuff.

 

And for the record, our church would let in a weird acting 21 year old black guy who shows up to our Bible studies, but sadly we might have some pause now.

[TheLeviathan]

 

And for the record, our church would let in a weird acting 21 year old black guy who shows up to our Bible studies, but sadly we might have some pause now.

 

That's the worst part, as much as we can talk about letting this bring us together, the actual effect might be the opposite.

[twinsnorth49]

When is it going to stop? It's all just so unfathomable. 

 

And I agree with everything Jon Stewart said.

[Mike Sixel]

It probably won't stop until people stop being taught to hate others for being different than them, by their parents, their political leaders, and their religious leaders. So much hate, for not good reason.

[ashbury]

http://thedailyshow.cc.com/videos/kb2h42/charleston-church-shooting

Thanks for the link. He nailed it.

 

Now we need someone to nail a solution. I got nothin'. I can't raise other people's kids.

[Willihammer]

I admit I struggle with race on almost a daily basis. The language, dress, volume, chaos, recalcitrance at everything. I know there are reasons black people aren't 100% on board with what we're doing here, there is rot in the foundation of this country. But we all have to deal with authority at some level, either at work or at home or in prison. That's the way the world is, its bigger than any race. I know I'm supposed to care about why its different for them, but I can never understand anyway. So I don't really try. But I still see it all and it simmers.

[TheLeviathan]

 

 I can't raise other people's kids.

 

Try being a teacher.  We really need to license reproduction.

 

I'm at least 60% serious.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I admit I struggle with race on almost a daily basis. The language, dress, volume, chaos, recalcitrance at everything. I know there are reasons black people aren't 100% on board with what we're doing here, there is rot in the foundation of this country. But we all have to deal with authority at some level, either at work or at home or in prison. That's the way the world is, its bigger than any race. I know I'm supposed to care about why its different for them, but I can never understand anyway. So I don't really try. But I still see it all and it simmers.

Honest take, but you should care, and you should try; it's not about reaching a point of understanding, it's about the attempt, I think. 

 

I look at it this way: How darkly must opportunity shine to motivate a whole group of people to habitualize a form of civil disobedience?  Rather than look at the behavior and see evidence of a non-systematic effect, why not see that widespread resistance of authority as proof of their pervasive, inter-generational bad experience with authority?

[PseudoSABR]

 

 I can't raise other people's kids.

Maybe with some help you could.

 

Takes a village to raise a child.  That's our solution.  Enough of this "it's not my problem" crap.  

[TheLeviathan]

Maybe with some help you could.

 

Takes a village to raise a child.  That's our solution.  Enough of this "it's not my problem" crap.

 

What does that solution involve out of curiosity?

[DaveW]

They found his manifesto.... Should put any doubt about his state of mind and motive to bed

http://lastrhodesian.com/data/documents/rtf88.txt

[PseudoSABR]

 

What does that solution involve out of curiosity?

Taxes.  We need to make huge investments in education in impoverished areas, in infrastructure, in skilled labor training, in day care, welfare-to-jobs programs etc. etc.    We need to be willing to experiment with public policy until we find what works.   We can't be scared of sunk cost.  If there's ways to incentivize private firms to help address poverty, I'm all for it; but we can no longer wait for the market to care for the indigent, much less make them self-sufficient.

 

Totally unrealistic, I know.  What needs to shift is our American values where we think "mind your own business" and "not my problem" to something that takes being our brother's keeper far, far more seriously.  We need to go outside and play with the neighbor's kids, get to know them, and give a **** about them.   

[formerly33]

 

They found his manifesto.... Should put any doubt about his state of mind and motive to bed
http://lastrhodesian.com/data/documents/rtf88.txt

For me, all doubt was removed when I read the first article about the shooting.

[Willihammer]

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think Congress has ever been inclined to cut funding for social programs after they've proven ineffective in favor of experimenting with a different one. What seems to happen is that programs become entrenched because of the election cycle, nobody wants to lose black votes and then the white voters who subsidize these programs now are pitted against the black voters who benefit from them, and that is just more fuel for racial resentment.

[USAFChief]

They found his manifesto.... Should put any doubt about his state of mind and motive to bed

http://lastrhodesian.com/data/documents/rtf88.txt

I'm pretty naive I guess. It shocks me to read stuff like this.

 

Every time.

[DaveW]

For me, all doubt was removed when I read the first article about the shooting.

Me too, but there seemed to be a lot of people trying in the media to make excuses and crap for him.

[TheLeviathan]

Taxes.  We need to make huge investments in education in impoverished areas, in infrastructure, in skilled labor training, in day care, welfare-to-jobs programs etc. etc.    We need to be willing to experiment with public policy until we find what works.   We can't be scared of sunk cost.  If there's ways to incentivize private firms to help address poverty, I'm all for it; but we can no longer wait for the market to care for the indigent, much less make them self-sufficient.

 

Totally unrealistic, I know.  What needs to shift is our American values where we think "mind your own business" and "not my problem" to something that takes being our brother's keeper far, far more seriously.  We need to go outside and play with the neighbor's kids, get to know them, and give a **** about them.

 

I agree, but do you really believe, even if we do it effectively, that money alone is the solution? This solution seems superficial and only addressing the easier half.

 

The other half is our nature and some pervasive social trends.

[PseudoSABR]

 

I agree, but do you really believe, even if we do it effectively, that money alone is the solution? This solution seems superficial and only addressing the easier half.

The other half is our nature and some pervasive social trends.

Of course, money alone does little. Implementation matters.  Ideas matter.  Meaningful education that leads to real skills matter.  But we probably need the funding before we get the best ideas and the best people.  

 

As to 'our nature,' there will always be a tendency for people to aggregate into groups and seek claims of dominance or victimhood, but hopefully we can move beyond such pervasive groupings based on skin color.

[TheLeviathan]

 

Of course, money alone does little. Implementation matters.  Ideas matter.  Meaningful education that leads to real skills matter.  But we probably need the funding before we get the best ideas and the best people.  

 

As to 'our nature,' there will always be a tendency for people to aggregate into groups and seek claims of dominance or victimhood, but hopefully we can move beyond such pervasive groupings based on skin color.

 

I agree, we have to invest in schools and neighborhoods if we want people to invest back in them.  It's hard to ask someone to care about their education if we don't care enough to make it a quality one.  I also agree that investment like that builds a common objective.

 

We always talk about the hard truths we have to face and it's true for whites, blacks, rich, poor and every other grouping.  There are also some realities that are really hard to face that muck up the whole situation.

 

For instance, how do you help someone raised to be hateful?  Or, a harder one, someone of such lower intelligence that they are highly suggestible?   Or how do you help a kid whose parents are terrible and never should have reproduced?  Or how do you help a kid who never really had parents at all?

 

I'm not asking these to be a pain in the ass, but these issues bug me because we always talk about the most superficial problems and not the ones most painful to address.  Maybe it's just my own work with so many families and kids with utterly hopeless lives that makes me cynical about so much of this, but human beings are not equal in our abilities, capacities, upbringing, or ability to cope with situations.  That's hard to fix.

 

[PseudoSABR]

 

I agree, we have to invest in schools and neighborhoods if we want people to invest back in them.  It's hard to ask someone to care about their education if we don't care enough to make it a quality one.  I also agree that investment like that builds a common objective.

 

We always talk about the hard truths we have to face and it's true for whites, blacks, rich, poor and every other grouping.  There are also some realities that are really hard to face that muck up the whole situation.

 

For instance, how do you help someone raised to be hateful?  Or, a harder one, someone of such lower intelligence that they are highly suggestible?   Or how do you help a kid whose parents are terrible and never should have reproduced?  Or how do you help a kid who never really had parents at all?

 

I'm not asking these to be a pain in the ass, but these issues bug me because we always talk about the most superficial problems and not the ones most painful to address.  Maybe it's just my own work with so many families and kids with utterly hopeless lives that makes me cynical about so much of this, but human beings are not equal in our abilities, capacities, upbringing, or ability to cope with situations.  That's hard to fix.

Great post, my friend.  Asking the questions that you do and being bothered by troublesome facts are the kind of investments we need.  There are no good answers to your questions.  I only stress that we cannot be stymied by false starts and lost causes.   So much policy would have to be 'grandfathered in' for it to be a effective, sadly.  What ever good there is to be done, many will be left behind.