Stick a fork in Hunter, he is done.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Bad defense or not, he's upgrade from Kubel/Hammer last year. I think we can agree on that.

Actually, Hunter probably isn't that far from Hammer 2012-2014 as an overall performer these days.  Below average defender, above average bat.  Hopefully a little more healthy/consistent.

 

That was kinda my beef with the signing, that replacing Willingham was our top offseason priority.

[nicksaviking]

 

 

That was kinda my beef with the signing, that replacing Willingham was our top offseason priority.

 

My beef was that for some reason the team thought they had to have a significant number of vets on the team even though the franchise's past success came when they had lots of young players.

 

I never had doubts that Hunter would be an upgrade offensively to Willingham/Parmelee/Colabello. Well except for the first couple weeks of the season.

[kellyvance]

Memo to Mikey and Justin.

 

Hey Dudes. We're getting the band back together. Me and Joe, we're partying. And the kids are buying the first rounds man. They are good kids.

 

This guy Doze. He rakes, but he thinks the plate is only 6 inches wide. Never seen him even try to go opposite field. Justin, you get him. You cured that pull hitter insanity just before you won the batting title.  And this cat Arcia. I bet he can hit it 500 feet in bedroom slippers. Vargas?  I mean really. He has a hole in his swing, but Cuddy, you can help with that. Its the same hole you have always  had. When he fixes it.... imagine Big Papi as a switch hitter

 

Justin, you will have to share time with Joe. Shouldn't be a problem. You guys were roomies once and you KNOW you are streaky. When you are hot, Joe can sign autographs up on the concourse while you play. Be good PR. 

 

It's a short tour though. Just for this year. My contract feels like a one night stand. It will be fun though. They have a ton of kids that wanna play. We can maybe take September off.

 

Besides, These Farewell Tours sometimes last a while.The Eagles did their Farewell Tout about 5 years ago and they are still hanging together. Whaddayasay?

 

Torii #48

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

My beef was that for some reason the team thought they had to have a significant number of vets on the team even though the franchise's past success came when they had lots of young players.

I agree that the Twins seem to prioritize veteran "leadership" in weird ways but realistically, the Twins had no internal options for outfield. They needed to pick up someone from outside the organization. I personally wouldn't have chosen Hunter to fill that role but worse decisions could have been made (namely giving a multi-year deal to someone with a ceiling of mediocrity).

[twinscowboysbulls]

Glad I wasn't the guy to start this thread!

[DaveW]

 

I agree that the Twins seem to prioritize veteran "leadership" in weird ways but realistically, the Twins had no internal options for outfield. They needed to pick up someone from outside the organization. I personally wouldn't have chosen Hunter to fill that role but worse decisions could have been made (namely giving a multi-year deal to someone with a ceiling of mediocrity).

I thought and obviously still think they should have brought in Cruz on a multi-year deal. Stabilize the middle of your order and a corner OF position for 3 years and let Rosario, Arcia and Hicks battle it out for the other spot and the 4th OF spot (Hicks) whoever doesn't make it makes a solid trade piece or depth option.

 

But it is what it is, Hunter has been solid with the bat so far, however if he keeps it up and the Twins fall out of contention I hope they do the right thing and trade him for any asset they can get.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Cruz would have been a nice pickup in 2015 but I'll wait out his decline phase years before declaring that contract a success.

 

I really don't want to see the Twins hand out more contracts to 30+ year old free agents and Cruz is playing his age 34 season this year. It's time to start going young with the roster and while Torii Hunter is old, he's only here for one year (maybe less).

[DaveW]

 

Cruz would have been a nice pickup in 2015 but I'll wait out his decline phase years before declaring that contract a success.

 

I really don't want to see the Twins hand out more contracts to 30+ year old free agents and Cruz is playing his age 34 season this year. It's time to start going young with the roster and while Torii Hunter is old, he's only here for one year (maybe less).

I wouldn't give 100+ million to an older guy, but 4 years 57 million for Cruz would have been a no brainer, 34,35,36 years he should be fine, and even his 37 year should be fine with his hit tool. We are talking about a guy who you pretty much know who at the very least would be giving you 25 HR and a .840 OPS each of those seasons.

 

You can talk about signing young free agent players all you want, but the reality is those guys are the ones who will set you back 100+, the Upton's, Crawfords etc of the world. Cruz was and remains a no brainer at 4/57 for a team like the Twins.

 

I'd much rather spend 57 mil on a guy who's floor is 23 HR and a .830 OPS then a guy like Nolasco who's ceiling is a mediocre #3 in the AL and more likely a solid but unspectacular 4 (If he can get his crap together)

 

What I am realling trying to say is this:

Stop paying for mediocrity, if you are going to spend, spend on a guy who can be an "all star" like Cruz.

[jimmer]

What percentage of free agents are at least 30 when they become FAs? It's a pretty big percentage isn't it? And is 29 okay but 30?

[DaveW]

 

What percentage of free agents are at least 30 when they become FAs? It's a pretty big percentage isn't it? And is 29 okay but 30?

Any more it's becoming increasingly rare for a guy to be less than 30, (unless he is a Boras client), most teams and players seem open to signing a guy early on to buy out the first couple years of his Free agency (while allowing the player to still eventually getting a big pay day)

[DaveW]

I would also much rather give a 34 year old a 3-4 year contract, then a 29/30 year old a 7-8 year contract.

[SheboyganBrats]

It's nice that Hunter has had this nice run on offensive production, but I still think he's done as an outfielder.  I would have rather signed Colby Rasmus.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Hadn't thought about Cruz.  I probably would have been opposed, but I guess there is an argument for signing him and forgoing Ervin Santana.  (Or better yet, forgoing Nolasco for Santana, and then signing Cruz.)  We're not exactly solid in the OF corners going forward either.  Might be nice to have the option of shifting Mauer out there if it clears up 1B/DH too.

 

Of course, I would have preferred Hunter + a real CF option for less than half the guarantee of Cruz, possibly even with the benefit of hindsight about Cruz's fast start.

[nicksaviking]

 

Cruz would have been a nice pickup in 2015 but I'll wait out his decline phase years before declaring that contract a success.

 

I really don't want to see the Twins hand out more contracts to 30+ year old free agents and Cruz is playing his age 34 season this year. It's time to start going young with the roster and while Torii Hunter is old, he's only here for one year (maybe less).

 

100% agree.  No more 30+ year olds on multi year deals. 

[nicksaviking]

 

What percentage of free agents are at least 30 when they become FAs? It's a pretty big percentage isn't it? And is 29 okay but 30?

 

Yeah, it sucks, it's hard to get a young free agent, but I'm done with multi-year deals for aging vets until this team is to the point where they are only a player or two away from competing for a championship.  More and more this game is being dominated by young players.  Only five of the top 20 hitters by WAR were over 30 last year and only three of the top 20 pitchers. 

 

The steriod era saw players playing good ball late into their career, a decrease in HR isn't the only thing that's being affected by the new PED policies.

[Mike Sixel]

 

100% agree.  No more 30+ year olds on multi year deals. 

 

Ever? Or during the rebuild? Because, man, if ever, you just punted most every FA available, and a lot of possible extensions.

[DocBauer]

wishful thinking can do that to eyes ;-)

Happened to me in a bar one night................

[DocBauer]

Someone said early on "worst post ever", and they may have been right. Without picking on anyone, there was a lot of muck to wade through the first few pages. I'm certain a lot of that had to do with the first week of the season and all of our collective moods about then.

 

Look, I thought signing Hunter or Cuddyer to a 1-yr was a very smart idea originally. I felt each had one more solid season in them, could play some LF for us for that one year, (which is where we had the biggest and easiest opening to add someone) and could provide a leadership presence. Something this team has been sorely lacking the past few years.

 

After seeing what Cuddyer signed for, and hearing so much negativity about Hunter's defense, I began to re-think my original idea. When the Twins DID sign Hunter, I was floored at the cost. Then I was floored, confused and very put out when I heard the plan to move Arcia to left and put Hunter in right. (I still don't like it)

 

But then I reminded myself all of the reasons I originally liked the Hunter signing, decided his veteran experience potentially could lead to an OK defensive year...or at least one that didn't embarrass anyone...and let's see what happens. After the first week, I also was done on Hunter. But then again, I was done on most of the team after that train wreck of an opening week.

 

But what has happened since? Guys have found spots in the lineup, and nice grooves. Guys re rebounding and, for th most part, doing what we thought they would/might. Hunter has swung a big and important stick. You can't deny that. From what I've watch, his defense hasn't killed us either. Though I know others will disagree. And that's OK. But I know what my eyes have seen, and I've seen a whole lot worse before.

 

I don't know that Hunter's leadership and veteran influence is why this team is turning it around, playing so much better, and actually playing like a solid, quality ML team for the first time in a few years. But it sure can't be hurting. If you simply dislike Torri, be my guest. If you think his signing was some old guard, old way of doing things, be my guest. But reality is the signing is actually paying dividends.

[nicksaviking]

 

Ever? Or during the rebuild? Because, man, if ever, you just punted most every FA available, and a lot of possible extensions.

 

During a rebuild.  If they ever get back to that 2002-2010 level of competitiveness, then it's time to think about bad contracts to aging players that may help the short term goal of winning a champioinship. 

 

It's like Ryan has had it backward his entire career.  When the Twins were bad in the mid to late 90's, Ryan signed a bunch mid-budget aging vets to a terrible team that was going nowhere.  Then they got good in the 2000's, they made a few trades, but never signed any of those kinds of free agents to push them over the hump.  Now they're bad again so it's back to the mid-budget aging vets.

[sane]

"he posted a 0.0 WAR last year"

 

WAR!!What is it good for?

Absolutely nothing! Uh-huh. Say it again, y'all!

WAR!huh, good God!

What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!

[h2oface]

 

I thought and obviously still think they should have brought in Cruz on a multi-year deal. Stabilize the middle of your order and a corner OF position for 3 years and let Rosario, Arcia and Hicks battle it out for the other spot and the 4th OF spot (Hicks) whoever doesn't make it makes a solid trade piece or depth option.

 

But it is what it is, Hunter has been solid with the bat so far, however if he keeps it up and the Twins fall out of contention I hope they do the right thing and trade him for any asset they can get.

I think that Hunter has been streaky with the bat so far, and not solid. He just appears solid right now at the top of a streak. The first two weeks, we sure could have used solid. All that is not unusual, though, and surely he will go though his valleys and peaks, but I expect him to hit at least .280 and do pretty well at the plate when he is not trying to swing like Arcia. His defense is surely suspect and he is slow and gives up singles and doubles and triples that other more fleet of foot catch for outs. I think his best value will be mentoring, and as soon as they get Hicks and Buxton up, it will be a big advantage. I hope they don't trade him, and use him for what they got him for, and groom the future outfielders. Now.......... if only they were on the team.....

[SwainZag]

 

I wouldn't give 100+ million to an older guy, but 4 years 57 million for Cruz would have been a no brainer, 34,35,36 years he should be fine, and even his 37 year should be fine with his hit tool. We are talking about a guy who you pretty much know who at the very least would be giving you 25 HR and a .840 OPS each of those seasons.

 

You can talk about signing young free agent players all you want, but the reality is those guys are the ones who will set you back 100+, the Upton's, Crawfords etc of the world. Cruz was and remains a no brainer at 4/57 for a team like the Twins.

 

I'd much rather spend 57 mil on a guy who's floor is 23 HR and a .830 OPS then a guy like Nolasco who's ceiling is a mediocre #3 in the AL and more likely a solid but unspectacular 4 (If he can get his crap together)

 

What I am realling trying to say is this:

Stop paying for mediocrity, if you are going to spend, spend on a guy who can be an "all star" like Cruz.

 

Cruz also has had trouble his entire career staying healthy.  He has played more than 130 games 3 times in his career and turns 35 on July 1.  If there was a time to take a chance on Cruz, it was before last season like the O's did.  A 4 year, $57M dollar contract to a soon to be 35 year old is not one a team in the position of the Twins should be signin, at least IMO.  

[The Wise One]

 

Keep in mind sample size.  A one month sample of a defensive runs estimator doesn't necessarily mean anything for the full season (like any other stat really, i.e. Pelfrey's ERAs this year and last year).  It wouldn't surprise me if Hunter had a similar average to above average month by this measure during his time in Detroit too (although Fangraphs doesn't let me break down fielding stats by month, probably for the better, though).

 

That said, there is a good chance he is not as bad as he was measured overall in Detroit, and it is certainly possible that he manages to finish the season more or less average.  Just that the current month sample isn't really a good indicator of that (especially when another defensive runs estimator -- DRS -- already disagrees substantially).

Statistically he is getting to more "OOZ" balls and impossible catches, for whatever that means.

In regards to sample size, 190 innings  was enough innings to say he is playing a better outfield than many here thought was possible. Wouldn't say if he will decline any worse than any other player. I am sure someone out there has access to some stats better than I do. They could answer the question if so motivated.

[owenowain]

Hunter is a great signing! By the way, he leads the team in home runs and RBI's. 

[Reider]

Torii Hunter has been one of the most, if not the most, consistent hitters in the MLB over the last 15 years. He's been clutch. Yes, he's slowed down and yes he's almost 40, but of all MLB players, in my opinion he's the least likeliest of guys that's just going to burn out all of a sudden. If anything he'll fizzle out slowly.

 

It's quite obvious that he's a real professional and takes his job very seriously. The guy isn't perfect (nobody is), but in my opinion he epitomizes what an MLB baseball player looks like or should be. There are a lot of great players out there, but what separates MLB players from non-MLB players is consistency. When I think of a true MLB player, I think of Torii Hunter.

 

I don't know how much time Torii has left in the MLB or what his numbers will looks like by seasons end, but what is very obvious to me is that he's acting like a true professional by working his hardest to earn his pay check. Like him or not, believe in him or not, one has to respect his work ethic and how serious he is taking his role this year.

 

 

[USAFChief]

To say the least, 'twas an improbable story,

Of the 40-year old outfielder Torii.

Who's mentorin' ways,

Had seen better days,

But who's return helped restore temp'rary glory.

[kab21]

I can't wait for the pendulum to swing back after Hunter has a down month.  The player opinions on here currently seem to change fast.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

I can't wait for the pendulum to swing back after Hunter has a down month.  The player opinions on here currently seem to change fast.

It's kinda funny, really.

 

The only thing that I find truly telling about Hunter is how many people called him the "worst outfielder in baseball" while my argument was "if the Twins are using publicly-available metrics to rate defense, they're in worse shape than I originally thought". 

 

Turns out that the Twins were probably right and that Hunter's -24.7 defensive runs last season weren't indicative of his ability. Yeah, he's slow and old but I'd still take him in the field over Arcia after watching him for ~30 games. What he's missing physically is somewhat compensated for by instinct and veteran savvy. He looks below average, maybe even bad, but not horrible/terrible/OMG.

[twinsnorth49]

 

It's kinda funny, really.

 

The only thing that I find truly telling about Hunter is how many people called him the "worst outfielder in baseball" while my argument was "if the Twins are using publicly-available metrics to rate defense, they're in worse shape than I originally thought". 

 

Turns out that the Twins were probably right and that Hunter's -24.7 defensive runs last season weren't indicative of his ability. Yeah, he's slow and old but I'd still take him in the field over Arcia after watching him for ~30 games. What he's missing physically is somewhat compensated for by instinct and veteran savvy. He looks below average, maybe even bad, but not horrible/terrible/OMG.

No slight on Hunter but what's  telling about that is how bad Arcia really is. I mean maybe not Delmon bad, but pretty bad.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

No slight on Hunter but what's  telling about that is how bad Arcia really is. I mean maybe not Delmon bad, but pretty bad.

Agreed. I'm baffled by both Arcia and Young. So much physical ability, so little of it that translates to the green part of the baseball field.