Stick a fork in Hunter, he is done.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I am not crazy about Hunter, and his bat is still useful, but I think some of the objection to him is the priority/exclusion the FO placed on his acquisition.  He was one of the first signings of the offseason in all MLB, and we pretty much made no effort to add another potential starting-level OF after him (given the Robinson was/is a likely 4th outfielder).

[USAFChief]

  On 5/5/2015 at 4:35 PM, spycake said:

I am not crazy about Hunter, and his bat is still useful, but I think some of the objection to him is the priority/exclusion the FO placed on his acquisition. He was one of the first signings of the offseason in all MLB, and we pretty much made no effort to add another potential starting-level OF after him (given the Robinson was/is a likely 4th outfielder).

concur. As part of a plan, much better than as THE plan.

 

And his defense has not been "atrocious. "

[beckmt]

The Twins need to give most of the prospects more time.  If Hicks fails one more time, he will go into the bust category(maybe not should be, but rushed was too much for him).  Earliest I can see one of the (Hicks, Buxton, Sano, etc) up here is midseason.  Rosario is up just to give him a taste of the big leagues before he is sent back when Arcia returns.  Do not rush the prospects(I know it is hard to wait), but pitchers seem to do better rushed than hitters.  Patience.  Like many older players, Hunter's bat seems to be coming to life as the weather warms up. 

[nicksaviking]

 

  On 5/5/2015 at 4:35 PM, spycake said:

I am not crazy about Hunter, and his bat is still useful, but I think some of the objection to him is the priority/exclusion the FO placed on his acquisition.  He was one of the first signings of the offseason in all MLB, and we pretty much made no effort to add another potential starting-level OF after him (given the Robinson was/is a likely 4th outfielder).

 

I agree, though there weren't a lot of OF available.  It was basically Hunter, Rios and Rasmus unless you wanted to give out a longer term deal to Melky Cabrera, which I would have liked even less.  Of the other three, I would have preferred Rios, Rasmus and Hunter in that order, but on a one year deal, I really cared very little.  One year deals rarely bother me when most of us were predicting more losing.  Not sure what all the fuss was about.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

  On 5/5/2015 at 4:39 PM, USAFChief said:

concur. As part of a plan, much better than as THE plan.

And his defense has not been "atrocious. "

Not lately, no.

[Sam Morley]

I hate this thread. It's like I'm getting trolled by straight up White Sox fans, and can't look away. Hunter is one of the best performers on the best performing Twins team in like five years, e.g.: gw 3run jack last night. He's a Twin. We drafted him. We brought him up. He played like ten awesome seasons here on the worst playing surface in the history of sports. We should've resigned him. Now he's back for a farewell tour during a transitional season because he likes it here and wants to be a part of the organization in the future... and he's producing. I don't have a problem with dogging a player who, say, come from an LA NL team and signs for big money and terribly underperforms, but a homegrown player like Hunter? It sucks to see it. And anybody who is saying he can't play anymore is obviously either not watching the games, or just doesn't know anything about baseball. And even if he really is problematically slower in the field (which I don't think he is) than it's because he spent ten years destroying his knees running and diving all over the place on the metro dome astro turf (which if you've never experienced is pretty much like playing on concrete) and if he wants one more season in the bigs (whether he can hack it or not- and he can) than we owe it to him (not that it's our decision to make- what we owe him is a tip of our cap and a round of applause every time he steps to the plate).

[Twodogs]

Hunter has been a big part of the Twins organization.  I really hope that he can put up some decent numbers for the Twins this year, which it seems like he has started to do.  I don't think that people truly dislike Hunter, at least I hope not, I think that if the Twins had say, Carlos Gomez, and Ben Revere as the other two outfielders to go with Hunter instead of Schaffer and Arcia, I think people would be more accepting of the Hunter signing.  I think die hard Twins fans were looking for a signing that was going to improve all facets of the Twins dynamic and to tell the truth that guy just wasn't out there this year to sign for a low price of a one year contract anyway.  So Hunter is who the Twins got and I like him and hope he hits .270 with 17 Hrs 75 Rbi with a .330 on base.  That would be a good final year for him as a Twin.  I know people bring up things like WAR and if he is even a 0 or a +1 or so then that means to me that he is average.  That to me would be better than running collabello back out there or some other guy that is way worse.

 

I as a Twins fan have been looking for a way to pry Van Slyke away from the Dodgers, he's a 5th OF'er for them but would be nice corner OF'er for the Twins, I think.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

It's funny how baseball as a "game" or part of Americana is constantly at odds with baseball as a "business."

 

The Hunter signing somehow falls into both camps - signing the fan favorite and longtime fixture with successful Twins teams will bring in fans and sell those beers/hot dogs/t-shirts/etc. It's also a sentimental move, giving him a farewell tour of sorts, and it harkens back to all of those Kevin Costner baseball movies and parents playing catch with their kids in the back yard.

 

Opponents of the signing will point to a team that is rebuilding -- playing time for the youth movement is valuable for the long term success of the team, so signing a player for sentimental reasons or for a boost in attendance is counter-productive to the goal of building a team that will be good for several years in the future.

 

Signing Hunter will pull a fan in many directions - now that it's done and there's no undoing it, I feel personally like leaning towards a sentimental "good for him" camp. His play on the field might win the Twins a few more games this year, so that's fun. It's pretty hard for him to mentor Hicks when he's using up his roster spot... but that's another argument for another time. 

 

As mentioned in the post above, if Hunter is just "average" that's actually quite valuable for a team like the Twins that have had several below average options in the last 4 years.

[nicksaviking]

To the point of signing Hunter simply to tease the sentimentality of fans, my wife (who never pays attention to baseball) had to put up with me listening to the game in a long car ride yesterday.  I believe Hunter's name was mentioned as he was on deck, which caught her attnetion.  She said she was glad Hunter was back because she doesn't know any other Twins these days except for Mauer.  I told her the team likely signed him to hook casual fans such as herself.  She told me, she didn't care about their motives, she liked it just the same and it was no different than Target raising money and awareness for some cause.  SureTarget's motives were to make themselves more money by pretending that they are philenthropic, but the cause ends up making tons of money anyway.  I told her that I was just happy she was paying attention to baseball, even if Hunter wasn't the same player she remembered.  Two seconds later he hits a 3 run HR and she tells me to stop being so negative.

[clone52]

 

  On 5/5/2015 at 5:13 PM, beckmt said:

The Twins need to give most of the prospects more time.  If Hicks fails one more time, he will go into the bust category(maybe not should be, but rushed was too much for him).  Earliest I can see one of the (Hicks, Buxton, Sano, etc) up here is midseason.  Rosario is up just to give him a taste of the big leagues before he is sent back when Arcia returns.  Do not rush the prospects(I know it is hard to wait), but pitchers seem to do better rushed than hitters.  Patience.  Like many older players, Hunter's bat seems to be coming to life as the weather warms up. 

 

I wouldn't count on Rosario getting sent down when Arcia gets healthy.  If Rosario does okay and Vargas continues to struggle, the might send Vargas down for awhile.  Until Vargas turns things around, Rosario in Left and Arcia at DH may be better than Arcia in Left and Vargas at DH.

 

You could also see Schafer sent packing if Rosario does well.

[glunn]

Moderator note - let's focus on the issues not on each other.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

  On 5/5/2015 at 5:27 PM, nicksaviking said:

I agree, though there weren't a lot of OF available.  It was basically Hunter, Rios and Rasmus unless you wanted to give out a longer term deal to Melky Cabrera, which I would have liked even less.

Aoki and Chris Young (the outfielder) are two more OF who were available as free agents.  (Also, Ichiro could have be a fun addition. )

 

I don't really mind signing Hunter, but I would have liked to target one of these other guys in addition to him.  Rebuilding or not, Jordan Schafer should not have been penciled in for a starting MLB spot in 2015.

[jimbo92107]

Torii Hunter was signed as a competent placeholder in LF, and as a team leader in a transitioning clubhouse. He has done both those things quite well. He has also chipped in some key hits, and has shown some of the younger guys what it looks like to take the extra base. Hunter's upbeat attitude and opportunistic style of play hopefully will inspire guys like Santana to stay aggressive and keep looking for ways to apply pressure to the opponent.

 

Plus, he's a damn fine looking man. There, I said it. Don't hate him because he's pretty.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

  On 5/5/2015 at 7:14 PM, Twodogs said:

I know people bring up things like WAR and if he is even a 0 or a +1 or so then that means to me that he is average.  That to me would be better than running collabello back out there or some other guy that is way worse.

0-1 WAR is not average for a starting player.  It's replacement level.  (Which is still better than Colabello in the outfield )

 

Average is more like 2-3 WAR for a starting player.  (Or you could use WAA, I suppose.)  By that measure, Hunter was almost exactly average in 2013, replacement level in 2014, and hopefully back to average in 2015...?

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

  On 5/5/2015 at 7:57 PM, jimbo92107 said:

Torii Hunter was signed as a competent placeholder in LF

If so, he's been doing a terrible job holding his place in LF

[Linus]

I don't think TR is the kind of guy that is counting on hooking the average fan back in when he is making his personnel decisions.  Same thing with the whole leadership angle, TR went out of his way to downplay it.  All in all, people are overthinking this thing.

 

The Twins needed an outfielder on a one year deal.  There were few available - they signed Hunter.  He's simply not going to make or break this team and will be gone next year.  I would have preferred Colby Rasmus because he could have played CF but that never seemed like a possibility.

[Mike Sixel]

There are also guys they could have traded for........some of whom are under 28, and if you have the deep farm system they do, they could have probably done that instead.

 

btw, imo, just because "it isn't the biggest problem with the team" does not mean it was a mistake or not. Those are not related items....

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

  On 5/5/2015 at 8:10 PM, Linus said:

I don't think TR is the kind of guy that is counting on hooking the average fan back in when he is making his personnel decisions.  Same thing with the whole leadership angle, TR went out of his way to downplay it.  All in all, people are overthinking this thing.

 

The Twins needed an outfielder on a one year deal.  There were few available - they signed Hunter.

They targeted Hunter, the oldest non-Ichiro free agent position player according to B-Ref, almost immediately after the season ended, and made him one of the earliest signings of the offseason.

 

I don't know if TR was directly thinking about marketing, but it's pretty clear he favored and pursued the player most familiar to the organization and to the fans.  (Same with hiring Molitor.)

[Twodogs]

 

  On 5/5/2015 at 7:17 PM, Kirby_waved_at_me said:

It's funny how baseball as a "game" or part of Americana is constantly at odds with baseball as a "business."

 

The Hunter signing somehow falls into both camps - signing the fan favorite and longtime fixture with successful Twins teams will bring in fans and sell those beers/hot dogs/t-shirts/etc. It's also a sentimental move, giving him a farewell tour of sorts, and it harkens back to all of those Kevin Costner baseball movies and parents playing catch with their kids in the back yard.

 

Opponents of the signing will point to a team that is rebuilding -- playing time for the youth movement is valuable for the long term success of the team, so signing a player for sentimental reasons or for a boost in attendance is counter-productive to the goal of building a team that will be good for several years in the future.

 

Signing Hunter will pull a fan in many directions - now that it's done and there's no undoing it, I feel personally like leaning towards a sentimental "good for him" camp. His play on the field might win the Twins a few more games this year, so that's fun. It's pretty hard for him to mentor Hicks when he's using up his roster spot... but that's another argument for another time. 

 

As mentioned in the post above, if Hunter is just "average" that's actually quite valuable for a team like the Twins that have had several below average options in the last 4 years.

Yeah this makes sense, and for all of those that are so much against it then they should also have been against the Paul Molitor signing or the Terry Steinbach signing etc... because those were almost identical, two players on the backside of their careers brought back to Minnesota to sell tickets and basically be a transition period between those crappy teams of the mid 90's to the pretty good teams of the 2000's.  It's probably a good thing that they could find a guy that only needed a 1 year deal.  Could you imagine if they had to sign a guy to a 3-4 year deal and what that would do to someone like Buxton and Rosario.  If those guys do develop then there would be some ok guy basically in their way.  Once this season is done then the spots open up for those young guys if they are deemed ready.  If not, then they will probably sign some other guy to a 1 year deal hoping to get those young guys ready and in an everyday role soon.

[Brock Beauchamp]

  On 5/5/2015 at 8:15 PM, mike wants wins said:

There are also guys they could have traded for........some of whom are under 28, and if you have the deep farm system they do, they could have probably done that instead.

 

btw, imo, just because "it isn't the biggest problem with the team" does not mean it was a mistake or not. Those are not related items....

I know we disagree here but I don't see the wisdom in trading away assets when you have four former top 100 outfield prospects aged 25 or younger in the organization and all of them are at AA or higher. That seems rather foolish to me, actually. Not all prospects pan out but you'll give up an asset at a position of greater need to do it, which will probably burn you down the road.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Hunter has had two 3-run jacks that have decided ballgames. How awesome is that? But I have no problem with people holding his feet to the fire in the outfield.

 

There was never much question his bat by itself improves the lineup. And as long as he continues making the plays in the field as he has been lately, he'll be an extremely valuable player.

[Mike Sixel]

 

  On 5/5/2015 at 8:41 PM, Brock Beauchamp said:

I know we disagree here but I don't see the wisdom in trading away assets when you have four former top 100 outfield prospects aged 25 or younger in the organization and all of them are at AA or higher. That seems rather foolish to me, actually. Not all prospects pan out but you'll give up an asset at a position of greater need to do it, which will probably burn you down the road.

 

I guess I don't see the issue in acquiring a younger player, for guys that have never made it to the majors. Since, most of them don't work out at all.

[DaveW]

 

  On 5/5/2015 at 5:27 PM, nicksaviking said:

I agree, though there weren't a lot of OF available.  It was basically Hunter, Rios and Rasmus unless you wanted to give out a longer term deal to Melky Cabrera, which I would have liked even less.  Of the other three, I would have preferred Rios, Rasmus and Hunter in that order, but on a one year deal, I really cared very little.  One year deals rarely bother me when most of us were predicting more losing.  Not sure what all the fuss was about.

I wanted a guy like Nelson Cruz all along. He would have bean a steal and actually provides value.

[h2oface]

 

  On 5/5/2015 at 11:42 PM, SpiritofVodkaDave said:

I wanted a guy like Nelson Cruz all along. He would have bean a steal and actually provides value.

I second that and third it and fourth that. Do you think a 4 yrs/$57M contract for 2015-18 (just about Nolasco and Santana money) would have been tradeable after another 40 homers and 100 RBI this year to make room for some prospects? I do. 

[Richie the Rally Goat]

  On 5/5/2015 at 8:44 PM, Hosken Bombo Disco said:

Hunter has had two 3-run jacks that have decided ballgames. How awesome is that? But I have no problem with people holding his feet to the fire in the outfield.

There was never much question his bat by itself improves the lineup. And as long as he continues making the plays in the field as he has been lately, he'll be an extremely valuable player.

as a DH on a team full of DHs

[Twodogs]

 

  On 5/5/2015 at 11:42 PM, SpiritofVodkaDave said:

I wanted a guy like Nelson Cruz all along. He would have bean a steal and actually provides value.

Isn't Nelson Cruz like one injection away from being banned for a year?  Maybe I'm thinking of someone different?

[h2oface]

That's the Nelson Cruz. Part of the Biogenesis scandal. 

[JB_Iowa]

I know that we aren't supposed to get into Torii's "mentorship" in this thread but I went through 4 pages and couldn't find a more appropriate thread and I didn't want to start a new one.

 

I don't really want to argue the whole mentorship/leadership thing again.  i do want to point out this article on Matt Carpenter.  

 

As much as it is about what Torii has meant to Carpenter, it is really as much - or more - about how older players can (and do) mentor the youngsters.  There's a lot that happens that we don't see.

 

http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2015/05/07/matt-carpenter-cardinals-all-star-torii-hunter/70965644/

 

And this article makes it pretty clear how some ballplayers "pass it on".

[Willihammer]

Was listening to LEN3 on Barreiro yesterday. He said after the Twins win, they select/demand a guy to do a dance off in the clubhouse, complete with lights and a smoke machine. Lavelle said there's often smoke still there when reporters get in. He said he talked to a player about it and his response was "yep, Torii's idea."

[DaveW]

 

  On 5/8/2015 at 2:52 PM, Willihammer said:

Was listening to LEN3 on Barreiro yesterday. He said after the Twins win, they select/demand a guy to do a dance off in the clubhouse, complete with lights and a smoke machine. Lavelle said there's often smoke still there when reporters get in. He said he talked to a player about it and his response was "yep, Torii's idea."

$12 million dollar idea right there.