Was This A Balk?

[Parker Hageman]

During last night's game against the Royals, for some reason with two outs and the bases loaded, Torii Hunter decided to try a straight steal of home. 

 

Royals pitcher Jeremy Guthrie was alerted to Hunter's attempt and quickly made a throw to catcher Salvador Perez to beat him by a few feet:

 

http://i.imgur.com/Mr6Sfg4.gif

 

Twins manager Paul Molitor came out to argue to no avail that what Guthrie did was balk. The umpires conferred in the infield for several minutes before signalling Hunter out and the end of the inning.

 

Molitor told reporters after the game about his view of the play:

 

“It was a weird play,” Molitor said. “I wasn’t sure what I saw, if I was convinced. Obviously it was a sped-up delivery once Guthrie realized what was going on. The awkward part of his lead foot not hitting the ground as he released the ball, I wanted to get an explanation on balk.

 

“I know there’s a checklist the umpires go through. It says you can speed up the delivery. You can’t stop and you have to stay engaged with the rubber and you have to step towards where you throw. A lot of the criteria was met, but it was just something I hadn’t seen.” 

 

 

Major League Baseball's balk rules have plenty of room for interpretation. For instance,  Rule 8.01c says "The pitcher shall step ahead of the throw. A snap throw followed by the step directly toward the base is a balk". The rule does not explicitly state whether home plate is considered a base. If it is, Guthrie's act was a snap throw.

 

On the other hand, Rule 8.01 describes that during the windup a pitcher is not allowed to deceive the batter with "alteration" of his pitch. Had he stepped off instead of going through his motion, that would have been considered a throw to home but once he started his windup, Guthrie was committed to delivering a pitch and, in this case, he clearly changed how he was delivering the ball to the plate. 

 

Based on those two rules, somewhere in there you can probably reach the conclusion that Guthrie balked. That said, without being able to review the play on video, it would be difficult to make the balk call.

 

What do you think? Balk or not?

[ashbury]

The intent of the balk rule is to eliminate deception (a topic for a different discussion), so I would be hard pressed to call it when the runner is in motion and committed to the steal and the pitcher throws to where the runner is already going.

[ashbury]

On second viewing of the play, I wonder if Torii would have had a better chance of being safe if he slid less directly over the plate and more toward the infield, staying in the basepath of course. The play looks closer now than I initially thought.

[Parker Hageman]

The intent of the balk rule is to eliminate deception (a topic for a different discussion), so I would be hard pressed to call it when the runner is already in motion and the pitcher throws to where the runner is already going.

 

 

More than anything, I'm surprised there is not a section dedicated towards this exact situation. Plenty of balks have been called for stepping off with the wrong foot when trying to catch a runner stealing home. 

 

Personally, I'm fine with it not being called a balk but I think there's room in the way the rules are written for Molitor to make a case.

 

[Parker Hageman]

On second viewing of the play, I wonder if Torii would have had a better chance of being safe if he slid less directly over the plate and more toward the infield, staying in the basepath of course. The play looks closer now than I initially thought.

 

 

Rhett Bollinger had a good quote from Hunter:

 

"I said if he doesn't look at me, I'm going, and he didn't, so I took off," Hunter said. "I saw a weak link there with his slow delivery, but he kind of sped it up and short-armed the ball. He threw it in the dirt and it was right there for [salvador] Perez, who has a Gold Glove. But if he throws it anywhere up I'm safe."

 

 

I think he's right. If that ball was elevated, Hunter may have slid underneath a tag. 

[Secondary User]

 

The intent of the balk rule is to eliminate deception (a topic for a different discussion), so I would be hard pressed to call it when the runner is in motion and committed to the steal and the pitcher throws to where the runner is already going.

 

Couldn't it be considered a deception to have drastically altered his delivery after the runner had gone into motion?  Trick a runner into going based on your slow delivery than shorten it and speed it up after you have him running?  It all depends on your interpretation of the "without interruption or alteration" in 8.01(a) in my opinion

[gil4]

The intent of the balk rule is to eliminate deception (a topic for a different discussion), so I would be hard pressed to call it when the runner is in motion and committed to the steal and the pitcher throws to where the runner is already going.

From the wind-up, once a pitcher goes into a pitching motion, he has to complete a legal pitch to the batter or it's a balk. The runner is irrelevant. Did he unnaturally speed up his motion? Yes. Did it deceive the batter? It certainly could have, and probably would have if the batter decided he wanted to kill Torii by swinging away. It sure looks like a balk to me.

[Squirrel]

This explanation all makes the play a bit more interesting rather than the 'What was he thinking???' of my initial reaction. Gotta love baseball for all these intrigues.

[jimmer]

It was not a balk.  Pitcher broke no rule.

 

It also, IMO, wouldn't have even been a really a bad decision by Torii if circumstances were different, because if Guthrie goes through his normal motion, Torii is safe. The pitcher had to make a hurried throw right on the money to get him and he did it. He was just out.

 

I'm not sure bases loaded and two out with a guy like Vargas up is the right time.

[Parker Hageman]

It was not a balk.  And the balk rule doesn't have anything to do with the batter.

 

 

Well that's simply not true:

 

(a) The Windup Position. The pitcher shall stand facing the batter, his pivot foot in contact with the pitchers plate and the other foot free. From this position any natural movement associated with his delivery of the ball to the batter commits him to the pitch without interruption or alteration. He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.

 

 

I think the question is whether or not what Guthrie did was enough to be considered an alteration. 

[Secondary User]

 

It was not a balk.  And the balk rule doesn't have anything to do with the batter.

 

 

 

 

 

8.05

 

If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when --

    ....

    ....

    (e) The pitcher makes an illegal pitch

 

If it is deemed he made an illegal pitch (seems as if altering your delivery could fall under that category), it's a balk.

[nicksaviking]

 

 

On the other hand, Rule 8.01 describes that during the windup a pitcher is not allowed to deceive the batter with "alteration" of his pitch. Had he stepped off instead of going through his motion, that would have been considered a throw to home but once he started his windup, Guthrie was committed to delivering a pitch and, in this case, he clearly changed how he was delivering the ball to the plate. 

 

 

I think the only fair thing to do would have been to make Guthrie continue to pitch in the maner he did when throwing to the plate during the steal.  If his delivery the rest of the game, or even the rest of his career, had been like that, then I'd think the "alteration" would have been justified.

[Secondary User]

One question, is how does the "without alteration or interruption" rule apply to the slide step?  That is clearly a sizeable alteration to the delivery, though not on this scale.

[Hrbowski]

It was a balk, if he continues in his normal delivery Hunter is safe. Since he changed his delivery it should be called a balk, because if Hunter was not running and he threw a pitch like that it would be a balk, so if the runner is going it should be a balk also.

[jimmer]

 

Well that's simply not true:

 

 

I think the question is whether or not what Guthrie did was enough to be considered an alteration. 

yeah, that's why I went back immediately and deleted that part (the part that said: And the balk rule doesn't have anything to do with the batter), before all the corrections came,

[jimmer]

 

It was a balk, if he continues in his normal delivery Hunter is safe. Since he changed his delivery it should be called a balk, because if Hunter was not running and he threw a pitch like that it would be a balk, so if the runner is going it should be a balk also.

This pitching alteration thing was put in there mostly to avoid a pitcher getting the ball back from the catcher and immediately delivering a pitch before the batter was ready.  Called a quick return. 

[Secondary User]

 

This pitching alteration thing was put in there mostly to avoid a pitcher getting the ball back from the catcher and immediately delivering a pitch before the batter was ready.  Called a quick return. 

 

They're two different topics, both covered by the rule book (Rule 8.01 has a comment about quick pitches, and Rule 8.01(a) states without interruption or alteration)

[jwestbrock]

My opinion of it is that I would have treated it the same as if, with a runner on first taking off, the pitcher performed a pickoff type move to second to try and get him. My understanding is that is not legal since that is an unoccupied base.

[jimmer]

The way I read it: Once he starts moving after being set in the windup, he can't stop (interruption) of do anything else but deliver pitch (alteration: like step off, throw to a base or trip, or whatever). And it goes on to explain some alterations it's referring to like 'He shall not raise either foot from the ground, except that in his actual delivery of the ball to the batter, he may take one step backward, and one step forward with his free foot.'  He didn't do anything of those things specifically mentioned. 

 

IMO, it's not referring to how the ball is actually delivered after going through all the required steps for doing a windup pitch. He did all those. If he had actually stopped, planted and thrown, that would be different. I've spent about 30 years interpreting baseball rules as an umpire. The rule is shaky though, for sure. Just my opinion.    

[jimmer]

 

If it is deemed he made an illegal pitch (seems as if altering your delivery could fall under that category), it's a balk.

Rule 8.05

'The pitcher makes an illegal pitch......'

 

Here's the whole thing in regards to illegal pitch under 8.05: not just the start of the rule..because the whole thing explains what the rule is about.

 

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when-

 

(e)'The pitcher makes an illegal pitch; A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter's box. With runners on base the penalty is a balk; with no runners on base, it is a ball. The quick pitch is dangerous and should not be permitted.'

 

Like I said earlier, it's about the quick pitch which is done before the batter is set.  The batter was set.

[Boom Boom]

I must have missed the part where Guthrie's pitch was deceptive.

[Secondary User]

 

I must have missed the part where Guthrie's pitch was deceptive.

 

Altering the timing as much as he did could be seen as deceiving to the hitter.

[Secondary User]

 

Rule 8.05

'The pitcher makes an illegal pitch......'

 

Here's the whole thing in regards to illegal pitch under 8.05: not just the start of the rule..because the whole thing explains what the rule is about.

 

8.05 If there is a runner, or runners, it is a balk when-

 

(e)'The pitcher makes an illegal pitch; A quick pitch is an illegal pitch. Umpires will judge a quick pitch as one delivered before the batter is reasonably set in the batter's box. With runners on base the penalty is a balk; with no runners on base, it is a ball. The quick pitch is dangerous and should not be permitted.'

 

Like I said earlier, it's about the quick pitch which is done before the batter is set.  The batter was set.

 

A quick pitch is an illegal pitch, but it is not the only illegal pitch

[jimmer]

 

A quick pitch is an illegal pitch, but it is not the only illegal pitch

8.05 covers a plethora of illegal pitches in which the one that happen is not referenced.  (e)-(m) are all examples of illegal pitches.

[Boom Boom]

Altering the timing as much as he did could be seen as deceiving to the hitter.

It could be, if it wasn't obvious that speeding up his delivery had nothing to do with trying to deceive Vargas.

[Parker Hageman]

Here's the whole thing in regards to illegal pitch under 8.05: not just the start of the rule..because the whole thing explains what the rule is about.

 

 

A quick pitch is not the only form of an illegal pitch. What Guthrie did was clearly not a quick pitch but he seemingly did not following the set of rules prescribed by the definitions of the Windup and Set -- which constitutes illegal pitches according to the MLB rules. 

 

What it boils down to is whether or not what Guthrie did was an alteration to his delivery in the windup. There are no examples given in the rules of what an alteration would be.  

 

Some pitchers have been known to change things up in a plate appearance -- like what Mark Hamburger did to this Gophers hitter (https://vine.co/v/O0P6gYZUKj6). That wouldn't have been called a balk although the rules could be interpreted as such. 

 

The rule definitely could use some clarification as well as the ability to review the play. 

 

[jimmer]

8.05 covers a plethora of illegal pitches in which the one that happen is not referenced.  (e)-(m) are all examples of illegal pitches.  

 

A quick pitch is not the only form of an illegal pitch. What Guthrie did was clearly not a quick pitch but he seemingly did not following the set of rules prescribed by the definitions of the Windup and Set -- which constitutes illegal pitches according to the MLB rules. 

 

8.05 covers a plethora of illegal pitches in which the one that happen is not referenced.  (e)-(m) are all examples of illegal pitches.

 

As far as the rules of the windup, it tells what you can't and can't do in the rule. Him speeding up his delivery towards the ends isn't specified.  His intent wasn't to deceive the batter either.

 

I explained what I thought they were referring to when talking about altering in an earlier post.

[jimmer]

Anyway, I enjoyed the debate, but I've covered everything I think is pertinent to my interpretation of the play in my posts on this thread.

 

It wasn't called, he was out, and I doubt MLB comes back and says it was a balk (and they have been coming out and acknowledging mistakes recently).

[TwinsTakes-RD]

© At any time during the pitchers preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw.
Rule 8.01© Comment: The pitcher shall step ahead of the throw. A snap throw followed by the step directly toward the base is a balk.

 

and

 

© The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;
Rule 8.05© Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk.

 

Is this not what Guthrie did? He threw before he stepped! I say it's a balk.

[jimmer]

 

© At any time during the pitchers preliminary movements and until his natural pitching motion commits him to the pitch, he may throw to any base provided he steps directly toward such base before making the throw.
Rule 8.01© Comment: The pitcher shall step ahead of the throw. A snap throw followed by the step directly toward the base is a balk.

 

and

 

© The pitcher, while touching his plate, fails to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base;
Rule 8.05© Comment: Requires the pitcher, while touching his plate, to step directly toward a base before throwing to that base. If a pitcher turns or spins off of his free foot without actually stepping or if he turns his body and throws before stepping, it is a balk.

 

Is this not what Guthrie did? He threw before he stepped! I say it's a balk.

That's why they specify the difference between base and plate.