How Long for Pinto?

[Mike Sixel]

Statistics say Suzuki is terrible.....doesn't stop him from playing.

 

Like I said up thread, if the issue is the pitchers here don't want him here, the ONLY way to get over that is for him to be here and show them wrong (or right, alas, is a possibility). They aren't going to believe doodoo from AAA reports.

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Statistics say Suzuki is terrible.....doesn't stop him from playing.

 

Like I said up thread, if the issue is the pitchers here don't want him here, the ONLY way to get over that is for him to be here and show them wrong (or right, alas, is a possibility). They aren't going to believe doodoo from AAA reports.

It's not about showing the pitchers anything, it's about him being so bad behind the plate that MLB pitchers complained about him. You're letting the tail wag the dog here, Mike.

 

If Pinto is *so bad* that pitchers don't want to throw to him, you can't convince them otherwise unless he has *actually improved* as a catcher. Given that we're all of 15 games into the season, it's unlikely that has happened.

 

If Pinto has improved, I'm all for calling him up immediately but we, as outsiders, have absolutely no way to measure his current ability behind the plate while the Twins coaching staff gets to watch him every day.

 

Suzuki may be bad behind the plate but Pinto was worse. Don't like Suzuki's -1.43 pitch framing calls per game? Then take a gander at Pinto's -3.06, one of the worst in baseball last year.

 

Suzuki was -149 calls in 8106 chances. That's bad.

 

Pinto was -81 in just 2076 chances. That's horrrrrrible. Couple that with pitcher complaints, questionable pitch calling, and the eyeball test and you have yourself one of the worst catchers in baseball.

 

Yet some think he should be handed the job simply because they think he's "ready" just because he's swinging a hot bat. I don't get it. I'm all for considering Pinto as a backup catcher option now that it appears the Twins need help at DH but I'm not going to fret if the Twins think he's better served by staying in Rochester right now to work on his awful defensive game.

 

But that opinion comes with the realization that Pinto could do significant damage to an already-shaky pitching staff, even as a backup starting only twice a week. I think that's an acceptable risk given the Twins' weaknesses and ability to compete in 2015 but no way can I advocate Pinto as starter until he has proven he is capable of being even a "bad" catcher, which would be a pretty significant step up from his 2014 ranking of "OMG awful".

[Mike Sixel]

I could have sworn the reports last year were that it was night and day when he came back, and he had improved. 

 

I don't particularly trust this FO anymore, they've lost any "need to give them the benefit of the doubt" with me this far into the "rebuld" with one of the oldest teams around.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't really trust them either but with absolutely no evidence to support a belief that Pinto has improved, I can't get too worked up about him not receiving a call-up right now.

 

Like Parmelee before him, my biggest complaint is that the Twins should have made a decision on him already but by letting him sit on the bench for a good portion of last season, we're still at the point where we don't know what the team has in him.

[jokin]

I don't really trust them either but with absolutely no evidence to support a belief that Pinto has improved, I can't get too worked up about him not receiving a call-up right now.

 

Like Parmelee before him, my biggest complaint is that the Twins should have made a decision on him already but by letting him sit on the bench for a good portion of last season, we're still at the point where we don't know what the team has in him.

There's only one way to find out, and Pinto can't improve at the plate by continuing to mash against a level he's demonstrated that he's already mastered. And I think he is what he ever is going to be as a catcher (admittedly, not much).

 

<BTW, Brock. Something screwy is going on with the font when responding to a post.>

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

There's only one way to find out, and Pinto can't improve at the plate by continuing to mash against a level he's demonstrated that he's already mastered. And I think he is what he ever is going to be as a catcher (admittedly, not much).

If he can't improve on his 2014 as a catcher, the guy doesn't have much of a shot at being a MLB player, really. There's an outside chance he could be a middling DH but I don't think he has enough in his bat to be a longterm starter there, either.

 

Pinto's bat would play fine as a catcher right now... That has never been the question. It has always been about his defense. He'll hit enough to hold down a catching spot if he can show any competence behind the dish.

[ShouldaCouldaWoulda]

Yes, his approach isn't flawless but if it was then he would be a phenomenal prospect.

 

Sure, but I don't think this is just some minor aspect to shrug off. It's a pretty big deal that keeps guys with good bat from ever really being any good at all, and keeps guys with huge potential from being kinda good to streaky. He is not remotely skilled enough with his bat to afford to not be patient hitter.

 

Same goes for Santana and Arcia. When they're streaky (or lucky) their BAIP can make them look great, but only for a matter of time until they're exposed once again. Like Dozier, imagine where he'd be the last year plus if he didn't have a good approach. The approach is the only thing, along with some inside power vs levies, that is keeping him as a good bat.

 

It seems like our system is lacking a good approach and might be why have not seen the success we thought we would have with our prospects by now.

[jokin]

If he can't improve on his 2014 as a catcher, the guy doesn't have much of a shot at being a MLB player, really. There's an outside chance he could be a middling DH but I don't think he has enough in his bat to be a longterm starter there, either.

 

Pinto's bat would play fine as a catcher right now... That has never been the question. It has always been about his defense. He'll hit enough to hold down a catching spot if he can show any competence behind the dish.

<The response system is breaking down even further.....>

 

As I said, 10 years in the Twins' system. I think it's fair to surmise, he's all he's ever going to be as a catcher.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I could have sworn the reports last year were that it was night and day when he came back, and he had improved. 

 

I don't particularly trust this FO anymore, they've lost any "need to give them the benefit of the doubt" with me this far into the "rebuld" with one of the oldest teams around.

 

The night and day comments came from an umpire and some faint management praise.  I think there is more than you're making it out to be with the pitching staff.  Hell, have you ever heard of the teams best pitcher basically saying one of his catchers sucks at catching?

 

There have to be some serious issues to lead to that.  But yeah, with Vargas needing some time to tweak his approach, it's time for Pinto to be up.

[Willihammer]

There are now two reasons to move Pinto out from behind the dish in my view. One, he is a post-concussion guy. The Twins should be familiar with the risks of that by now. Two, if he is not a competent catcher after 9+ y ears of professional coaching, maybe he'll never be a competent catcher? And further, every day spent "developing" his catcher skills comes at the expense of what remains of his youth. If that means he is only a late inning RH bench option, fine. But let's get something out of him before he's eligible for AARP discounts.

[Mike Sixel]

And, how bad is Pinto's defense compared to Suzuki's "offense" anyway?

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

And, how bad is Pinto's defense compared to Suzuki's "offense" anyway?

Bad. We're talking about a guy who handles the ball 150 times a game. He has more impact on game than everybody but the pitcher.

 

There's a reason why catcher isn't an offense-first position.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The Twins have a very limited history of trusting Latin American catchers.  Here is a list of all Latin American catchers in Twins history:

 

Hank Izquierdo - 36 year old Cuban rookie, 16 games in 1967

Orlando Mercado - 27 year old journeyman, 19 games in 1989

Junior Ortiz - 30 year old veteran FA, two seasons as backup (1990-1991)

Javier Valentin - traded at age 26 after 1998-1999 as backup and 3 years in AAA, behind Matt LeCroy, Marcus Jensen, Tom Prince, etc.

Henry Blanco - 32 year old veteran FA, one season as backup (2004)

Wilson Ramos - traded at age 22 after 7 MLB starts at catcher in favor of Butera

Jose Morales - traded at age 27 after 24 MLB starts at catcher over 3 seasons in favor of Butera and Steve Holm

Rene Rivera - 27 year old journeyman, 45 games in 2011 (Butera desperation year)

Josmil Pinto - 43 games caught at age 24-25 (13 of those catching Latin American SPs), now repeating AAA at age 26

 

Basically, you have to already be a veteran to get much if any respect here if you are a Latin American catcher.

 

And we currently have zero Latin Americans on the pitching staff, and only one on the coaching staff (assistant hitting coach).  So I am not especially inclined to give this group much "benefit of the doubt" in their evaluation of Pinto (who admittedly is far from perfect, but has deserved more of an MLB opportunity given our personnel).

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Suzuki may be bad behind the plate but Pinto was worse. Don't like Suzuki's -1.43 pitch framing calls per game? Then take a gander at Pinto's -3.06, one of the worst in baseball last year.

 

Suzuki was -149 calls in 8106 chances. That's bad.

 

Pinto was -81 in just 2076 chances. That's horrrrrrible. Couple that with pitcher complaints, questionable pitch calling, and the eyeball test and you have yourself one of the worst catchers in baseball.

Looks like you are using StatCorner data.  To my knowledge, StatCorner framing data is pretty primitive:

 

http://www.statcorner.com/exp_PreliminaryCatchingFramework.php

 

 

There's no attempt to control for the pitchers, the umpires, the counts, or anything other than which side the hitter stood on.

 

Given the small sample we have for Pinto, and the fact that Samuel Deduno alone is weighted 4 times as heavily in Pinto's sample as compared to Suzuki's (and April 2014 Bad Pelfrey is weighted 7 times as heavily for Pinto!), I am not sure how meaningful this data is.

 

In the absence of a compelling reason not to, Pinto probably deserves a chance to compile a more meaningful sample.

[Otto von Ballpark]

According to Baseball Prospectus framing numbers, which include adjustments for pitcher/umpire as well as pitch types, Pinto was only 4 runs worse than Suzuki in framing in 2014, prorated to Suzuki's playing time:

 

Stats:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/sortable/index.php?cid=1667331

 

Explanation:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=22934

 

For reference, Pinto's 2014 somewhat modest offensive performance was 4.2 batting runs better than Suzuki's career numbers to date, prorated to Suzuki's 2014 playing time.

[howieramone2]

How can you not trust him to back up Suzuki, one of the worst defensive catchers in the game? On a team that clearly doesn't value OF defense, they are going to keep a legit hitting catcher down?

 

Mind.

Boggling.

Mike, I just read where the FO is bringing in Deena Davis and her cousin Crash to work with Pinto on his receiving skills.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Brock's post from the April 29th game thread:

He's so bad that one of the team's best pitchers called him out for it. I've been following baseball for over 25 years and that's the first time I've ever seen that happen. Battery mates are usually like glue. Calling out a guy who's on the roster - a guy you throw to at least once a week - speaks volumes about Pinto's defense. And it didn't come from some schmuck on the roster who didn't like Pinto's ability to "get after it". It came from Glen Perkins, who is probably the most well-versed guy on advanced metrics in the Twins' clubhouse. There's something about Pinto's game that he doesn't like enough to say something publicly about it. We should probably listen.

 

Factual error: Pinto wasn't on the roster when Perkins made these comments.  He had been demoted to AAA.  That's not that unusual, especially when it's a young player getting compared to a veteran.

 

Furthermore, Perkins has been completely silent about comparable stats/rankings from Suzuki, Doumit, Fryer, etc.  (In fact he called Fryer "really good at pitch framing" upon his recall, which has not been borne out by statistical analysis.)

 

Again, I admit that Pinto is far from perfect defensively, and likely worse than Suzuki and Fryer, but I think these comments from Perkins and the actions of the Twins tend to exaggerate the difference.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Ah, good catch. I thought Perkins said that right before Pinto was demoted.

[twinscowboysbulls]

It's already been too long.

[Linus]

Everybody needs another month then a whole bunch of decisions can be made.  I can easily see Pinto and Vargas trading places soon if things don't change.  At this point, they can let him catch some but he seems to be headed for career where his bat better allow him to be a DH.

[Mike Sixel]

Suzuki, tumbling down the "leaderboard" for catchers.......now sitting 24th in WAR.....and dropping.

[kab21]

 

Suzuki, tumbling down the "leaderboard" for catchers.......now sitting 24th in WAR.....and dropping.

 

Please don't ever criticize the use of WAR since this is an egregious misuse of it.

[nicksaviking]

Please don't ever criticize the use of WAR since this is an egregious misuse of it.

Are you saying WAR is embarrassed to be mentioned in the same sentence as Suzuki?

[Mike Sixel]

Please don't ever criticize the use of WAR since this is an egregious misuse of it.

I was trying to be nice.....offensively he is even worse......the point is, Suzuki is not good, herrmann is not good. Pinto might be.

 

How would you like me to compare him to other catchers?

[kab21]

 

Are you saying WAR is embarrassed to be mentioned in the same sentence as Suzuki?

 

That's funny but not what I meant.

 

I was trying to be nice.....offensively he is even worse......the point is, Suzuki is not good, herrmann is not good. Pinto might be.

How would you like me to compare him to other catchers?

WAR is worthless with a month of stats.  He has hit terribly to start the season but that's a reality in baseball when looking at small sample sizes.  If it's late June and he is still Buteresque then looking at stats have some value.

 

His IsoP is normal.  His BB and K rates are normal.  His BAPIP is at .217.  At the end of the season we are probably looking at a boring .260/.310/.360.   I'm not going to try to justify why the org has all but said Pinto will not be catching for the Twins.  Suzuki is just a placeholder.  I wish the Twins felt that Pinto was an option and we at least saw a 60/40 split in catching duties but don't misuse a small sample of stats and attempt to make a point.

[USAFChief]

Please don't ever criticize the use of WAR since this is an egregious misuse of it.

I think your issue should be taken up with Fangraphs, no?

 

Mike's just quoting data they put out there.

[Mike Sixel]

My opinion is based on more than 1 month of baseball. But, you can only judge this year based on this year. ......maybe this month is just confirmation bias.....on my part.

[beckmt]

Pinto is in Rochester to work on his catching skills, not his hitting skills.  There is a lot more to that than many people realize.  Is the catcher willing to call for a pitch that could end up in the dirt in a critical situation?  Will the catcher mix pitches well with a speedy runner on first? Can Pinto call and manage a game in the way the Twins want it done?  Twins are not a strikeout staff, unlike Kansas City were Pinto may be able to work because the pitchers have overwhelming stuff.  My take is that the Twins have not seen enough progress to bring Pinto up. 

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think your issue should be taken up with Fangraphs, no?

Mike's just quoting data they put out there.

 

I don't blame Ford or Dodge for a drunk driver.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

Pinto is in Rochester to work on his catching skills, not his hitting skills.  There is a lot more to that than many people realize.  Is the catcher willing to call for a pitch that could end up in the dirt in a critical situation?  Will the catcher mix pitches well with a speedy runner on first? Can Pinto call and manage a game in the way the Twins want it done?  Twins are not a strikeout staff, unlike Kansas City were Pinto may be able to work because the pitchers have overwhelming stuff.  My take is that the Twins have not seen enough progress to bring Pinto up. 

So you don't think he would have made the team out of spring training, even without the concussion?

 

I think most of us here know there are nuances to the catcher position.  I am not sure if these nuances are best learned as Deduno's personal catcher in 2014, or repeating AAA at age 26 in 2015...

 

Besides, Pinto's bat might be equal or better than Vargas.  Pinto's overall hitting (by wRC+) has been comparable or better than Vargas's at the same age at every level above low A ball.  I'm not sure that's something a team like the 2015 Twins can afford to leave in AAA indefinitely for refinements.