Article: Twins Lose, Fans Boo, So Hope Remains

[John Bonnes]

 

Can the Twins break a record for largest deficit in attendance in game #2 of the home stand? Looks like it was a sell-out, or near sell-out yesterday. Now that home opener nostalgia has worn off, will even half the seats be filled tomorrow?

 

That record is safe thanks to the teflon toilet bowl that was the Metrodome....

 

In 1982, the Metrodome opened with a lot of pomp and circumstance, drawing 52,279 excited fans. And thus, the Metrodome's golden era ended, because the next night they drew just 5,213. That's a different of over 47,000 fans, which is more than Target Field holds. 

 

(BTW, by the end of that week, Calvin Griffith has started a fire sale. He made three big trades by mid-May to dump veterans. Among them were Butch Wynegar and Roy Smalley.)

 

[Halsey Hall]

 

Molitor will be (or should be) a one-year manager. He has shown me nothing so far. The team already looks lifeless and lost. Even a bad team should at least look like they think they have a chance for the first month of the season. It was a HUGE mistake to not make Dougie Baseball the manager. He at least seems to care.

I've felt for a couple of months now, after speaking with one involved, that next year will bring change.  Dougie Baseball will NOT be managing in the minors next year. 

 

I can see, if the Twins want to keep Doug in the organization, one of several things taking place.  TR resigns, Molly takes his job and Doug becomes the new manager, or at least Molly stays managing and Doug is brought up to coach with the chance to eventually manage the team..

[John Bonnes]

 

John, you think that smart baseball people really thought Hunter wasn't a bad defender? Or, what? 

 

I don't know. They might have thought that he could better handle the limited dimensions of right field in Target Field than he could in Comerica Park. They might have just had trouble reconciling what their own eyes saw with the Hunter they remembered. They might have recognized he wasn't a good fielder but thought he also wasn't a bad fielder. Or maybe they thought his arm and attitude would make up for his reduced range.

 

And I don't think you're calling Ryan a liar. And it might be that Ryan was saying he thought Hunter was a good fielder but didn't truly believe it himself. But I think they thought Hunter was a better fielder than we have seen so far. 

[jimmer]

 

I don't know. They might have thought that he could better handle the limited dimensions of right field in Target Field than he could in Comerica Park. They might have just had trouble reconciling what their own eyes saw with the Hunter they remembered. They might have recognized he wasn't a good fielder but thought he also wasn't a bad fielder. Or maybe they thought his arm and attitude would make up for his reduced range.

 

And I don't think you're calling Ryan a liar. And it might be that Ryan was saying he thought Hunter was a good fielder but didn't truly believe it himself. But I think they thought Hunter was a better fielder than we have seen so far. 

Or maybe they just believed/had faith in Ryan's opinion as opposed to those ridiculous defensive metrics :-)

[Vanimal46]

 

That record is safe thanks to the teflon toilet bowl that was the Metrodome....

 

In 1982, the Metrodome opened with a lot of pomp and circumstance, drawing 52,279 excited fans. And thus, the Metrodome's golden era ended, because the next night they drew just 5,213. That's a different of over 47,000 fans, which is more than Target Field holds. 

 

(BTW, by the end of that week, Calvin Griffith has started a fire sale. He made three big trades by mid-May to dump veterans. Among them were Butch Wynegar and Roy Smalley.)

 

Wow what a crazy stat! I can only imagine the look on Calvin Griffith's face that night with 5,213 fans in the crowd. Thanks for a great bar trivia question that I can stump my fellow mid 20 year old friends with

[diehardtwinsfan]

Why bring up prospects early this year, when you can bring them up later, and then sell their struggles next year as hope during another losing season?

 

Some may see this as a "tin foil hat" arguement, but I am serious.  This team marketed it's farm system development for four years, and Buxton/Sano for three years despite being in A ball.  They are clearly putting all on their eggs in that basket, and so there is no rush to bring those prospects up.  They can do some mid season call ups.  Then sell their success as hope next season, or their struggles as youth next season.  Either way they still sell tickets, and have an excuse why the team is terrible.

At the rate things are going, I suspect this may be plan B. Wouldn't be surprised in the least if mid-May you see Pelf DFAd, Milone traded, Hicks called up, Arcia sent down (and I am really beginning to think this should happen b/c he shouldn't be this bad defensively), Sano, Meyer, and possibly even Berrios.

[Mike Sixel]

Thanks Johm. I respect the man. He knows more about baseball than most any human. I think he is generally forthcoming. I just think in this case.....he fudged the answer. I just cannot believe anyone thought Hunter would be close to average. I also don't want to believe it, because it would make me concerned about their ability to assess talent.

[diehardtwinsfan]

On the podcast, John and Aaron often talk about how Terry Ryan will never be fired, that he'll have to leave of his own accord. I wonder if a 100-loss season will be enough to accomplish that.  And then I wonder if he'll just be replaced by Rob Antony, and we'll lose another 6-7 years while the rest of the league passes us by in terms of modern team management.

 

I'd like to be able to root for a normal team. Is that so much to ask?

Honestly, I hope they target someone outside if they target someone. I'd throw a lot of money at the guy who manages the Rays and see if he'd come to a team with a bit more of a budget to work with.

 

Heck, I think I'd take Krivisky over Antony. Haven't seen much from Rob in his test drive last spring that tells me he'd be a good fit for the job.

 

I do think though that a 100 loss season would mean TR is retiring. Not sure on Molitor, that's hardly fair to see him gone after a season.

[Rosterman]

Man, six games out after playing seven. That hurts.

 

It's a tough job, but I always had issues with Gardy's line-up construction. But I will also admit I don't have answers. Where should Dozier bat. Do we need to keep Joe in the #3 spot forever (I don't like him as #2 personally). Is Hunter a #2, or a #5. Who bats clean-up. Vargas, Arcia, Plouffe...for now? I know you want to establish consistency, and that is supposedly what the final week of spring training was for.

 

I can live with one pitcher being horible in the bullpen. So I would give a spot to Graham, as you always need a guy to mop up, especially if you remain a non contender.

 

I don't know the answer to why Brian Duensing went from potential starter to being a one batter pitcher, and if the Twins need that luxury from the left side, and is there no market at all for the guy...I guess probably not if he is a one batter pitcher.

 

At least there are enough arms in the wings, both present and future, that at some point the  Twins have to create the bullpen shuffle. It also helps if the starters can push towards the 7th inning, rather than worrying about getting out of the 5th.

 

There were $65 tickets available for the home opener. There's $6.50 tickets for the next game. Go figure.

 

I'm trying to figure out how to really market this team and this season. Drawing a Blank!

 

 

[Rosterman]

 

I don't know. They might have thought that he could better handle the limited dimensions of right field in Target Field than he could in Comerica Park. They might have just had trouble reconciling what their own eyes saw with the Hunter they remembered. They might have recognized he wasn't a good fielder but thought he also wasn't a bad fielder. Or maybe they thought his arm and attitude would make up for his reduced range.

 

And I don't think you're calling Ryan a liar. And it might be that Ryan was saying he thought Hunter was a good fielder but didn't truly believe it himself. But I think they thought Hunter was a better fielder than we have seen so far. 

Hunter was a marketing signing. Pure and simple. It's a one year deal. He talks to the press. He excited a certain segment of the fan base. He still has some skills. He could play as well as what the Twins had in the upper system (Chris Parmelee, Arcia). He could switch to DH if Vargas fails, and IF the Twins find someone, anyone else to play in the outfield. It was just a few years ago that the Twins had an over-abundance of centerfielders. Now we are struggling to see anyone major-league worthy of holding down any of the outfield spots today. Maybe tomorrow, but nothing shining bright today!

[IndyTwinsFan]

 

At the rate things are going, I suspect this may be plan B. Wouldn't be surprised in the least if mid-May you see Pelf DFAd, Milone traded, Hicks called up, Arcia sent down (and I am really beginning to think this should happen b/c he shouldn't be this bad defensively), Sano, Meyer, and possibly even Berrios.

Hard to disagree with the thought process or logic here.

 

IMO, unless something dramatic happens regarding an improved level of play very soon (which I'm not expecting), some of this will start happening by early May.   Even if it doesn't, it probably should, especially in regards to the outfield defense and the bullpen, both of which are extremely difficult to watch and/or experience right now.

 

We need some hope, and I have a hard time seeing how the current 25-man roster will be able to generate it.   It's easier (at least for me) to feel hopeful in losing if it's with a relatively young roster with a fair amount of potential.   It's much more difficult to do with a roster heavily leaning on mediocre to fair veteran players.

[jimmer]

 

Honestly, I hope they target someone outside if they target someone. I'd throw a lot of money at the guy who manages the Rays and see if he'd come to a team with a bit more of a budget to work with.

 

Dodgers already got the Rays GM that did such a good job and the Cubs got their field manager.

Edited April 14, 2015 by jimmer

[Mike Sixel]

My favorite part. ....booing is good, because it shows people still care. Which is another interesting conversation.

[chopper0080]

 

A couple of replies to thoughts....

 

Terry Ryan sits down with the media before EVERY game, both in season and in spring training, to answer questions. He may have been wrong about this team, but this was not a lie. 

 

Nor was Hunter "just" a marketing ploy. They thought he had something left in the tank and they hoped he would help with the kids. Unfortunately, the primary kid I think they wanted to help - Hicks - is in Rochester. And Hunter either was not prepared enough (maybe due to it being a homecoming) or slumping or has got old fast. 

 

I will say this - I'm not sure they really understood his defensive shortcomings. I don't know if we'll ever know that. They're not going to trash him, and he's trying out there - he's just failing. They will tell you they are very suspicious of defensive metrics. 

 

This does feel like a crisis from the outside. It feels like they could be on a path where nobody's job is safe. It's very early on that path, but when a team is 1-6 and is playing even worse baseball than that represents, just about anything is in play. 

 

I will add some optimistic notes:

- I don't believe this team is as bad as they are showing right now.

- Trevor May showed some real resilience yesterday.

- A really bad start could mean a lot of prospects a lot sooner than we planned. 

- If the Twins really wanted to fix the OF defense, they have a highly prized centerfielder in AA right now whose defense draws rave reviews.

- The bullpen fixes could (and should) come quickly. 

 

John, I respect the access you have, your opinions, and that you share the information you have.  I want to state that before i disagree with you.

 

Re: Ryan.  Lie might be a strong term, but Terry Ryan sold this team as a team that was going to compete this year.  The level of talent on the team is pretty clear prior to and so far this season.  Terry Ryan knows talent, and knows baseball.  If his statement wasn't an outright lie, he was selling an absolute best case scenario because this team as a group is a trainwreck, and that has been clear to me  since the beginning of spring training.  I have a tough time buying that he just missed on all of these areas.

 

Re: Hunter.  Management can be skeptical of defensive metrics, and still have clearly seen Hunter's issues last year.  You say it wasn't a marketing ploy, but why else would you give Hunter that kind of money for what he brings in terms of skills if not to play to nostalgic fans?  They had a need, wanted to show spending, and needed to drum up interest from fans.  I don't believe it was coincidence that signing Hunter hit all of these areas.

 

Re: defense...if they can't see defensive issues this clearly, then I question the organization from the top down because ignorance is just as bad as incompentence.

 

I don't think they planned on the starting pitching to erode as fast as it has.  I'm sure Santana and Nolasco were a gut punch to Ryan and the rest of the front office.  That being said, there is a huge arguement to be made that this team is worse than it was four years ago, despite being sold as the year the team turned the corner.

 

My opinion is the team decided four years ago to go the prospect route, failed to clearly identify the time frame in which it's players would be ready, and have been scrambling these past two years to try and get fans to the park.  Ijust  have a tough time buying that these guys are so ignorant that they didn't see this coming.

[chopper0080]

 

My favorite part. ....booing is good, because it shows people still care. Which is another interesting conversation.

 

It is the home opener.  The interesting conversation is in June and July, are local fans so limited in things to do that they will still be at the park and care to boo.  My hope is that the seats are empty like they are in Florida, it starts to generate national TV attention with how empty the new park is, and the Twins are forced to clean house, or admit they just don't care.

[Mike Sixel]

Admittedly, the Sano and Buxton injuries have had an impact on the timeline.

[chopper0080]

 

Admittedly, the Sano and Buxton injuries have had an impact on the timeline.

 

Absolutely, but that is why it is important to build in room for error.  The Twins have not done that at all which is why when normal situations occur, it impacts the team so much. 

[Boom Boom]

Re: the Hunter signing...

 

I believe it was about 75% marketing and 25% of Terry Ryan's nostalgia and wistfulness...

 

The same attitude that brought back Jason Bartlett to rally the troops from the bench... and that was convinced that Jason Kubel wasn't cooked.

 

Remember when the team was good? Those guys were on the team, therefore bringing them back must make the team better. Ah, those were the days.

[laloesch]

 

On the podcast, John and Aaron often talk about how Terry Ryan will never be fired, that he'll have to leave of his own accord. I wonder if a 100-loss season will be enough to accomplish that.  And then I wonder if he'll just be replaced by Rob Antony, and we'll lose another 6-7 years while the rest of the league passes us by in terms of modern team management.

 

I'd like to be able to root for a normal team. Is that so much to ask?

 

If the Twins lose 100+ loses this season you have to believe that a BUNCH of heads are going to roll in the front office.  I don't know if Terry Ryan was or is on the hot seat, but judging some of his statements last fall he was getting an ear full from the Pohlads.  If he's replaced who knows who they will fill the gap with and the chaos it will create.  If it was up to me i'd clean house from Dave St. Peter on down.     

[laloesch]

 

On the podcast, John and Aaron often talk about how Terry Ryan will never be fired, that he'll have to leave of his own accord. I wonder if a 100-loss season will be enough to accomplish that.  And then I wonder if he'll just be replaced by Rob Antony, and we'll lose another 6-7 years while the rest of the league passes us by in terms of modern team management.

 

I'd like to be able to root for a normal team. Is that so much to ask?

 

If the Twins lose 100+ loses this season you have to believe that a BUNCH of heads are going to roll in the front office.  I don't know if Terry Ryan was or is on the hot seat, but judging some of his statements last fall he was getting an ear full from the Pohlads.  If he's replaced who knows who they will fill the gap with and the chaos it will create.  If it was up to me i'd clean house from Dave St. Peter on down.     

[boomerb5]

 

 

The only thing that could convince me to go to a game at Target field this year is the possibility of running into Marney Gellner or Jamie Hersch.

 

 

I've run into Marney a few times. She is much prettier in person than on camera, if you ask me. So good luck to you.

[Buford_T_Justice]

I never thought I would miss Chris Colabello.

[Seth Stohs]

 

One more, regarding Molitor:

 

It's obviously way too early to judge any manager in the first week of a season. That is obvious. 

 

But this team does not look prepared. And form the outside, it appears that he should get as much heat for the final roster decisions as Terry Ryan. There was a lot of talk in ST about how he and Ryan were on the same page with those. 

 

I don't agree with that. That's maybe what they said, and they should say... but I think that Ryan regained control with the managerial change. The roster decisions were all business decisions. 

 

The one exception might be the backup catcher. Molitor really likes Herrmann, and Pinto's concussion likely got Ryan to option him and keep Herrmann.

 

Stauffer - he was a free agent they weren't going to drop before the regular season.

Boyer - had the opt-out... the other guys had options. 

Robinson - the same.

 

5th starter - Pelfrey would have been lost. Pelfrey and Milone were making money. May had an option left. 

 

Nunez over Bernier is about the contract. 

 

 

[laloesch]

 

At the rate things are going, I suspect this may be plan B. Wouldn't be surprised in the least if mid-May you see Pelf DFAd, Milone traded, Hicks called up, Arcia sent down (and I am really beginning to think this should happen b/c he shouldn't be this bad defensively), Sano, Meyer, and possibly even Berrios.

 

I think your right.  I'd like to see some shuffling in the outfield to start with.  Call up one or more of the following (Rosario, Hicks and Buxton) and start interchanging pieces out there hopefully raising the bar defensively.  DFA what you don't need (Hunter, Robinson, Schafer).  I'm really down on Arcia.  Is this kid ever going to step up defensively?  He kind of reminds me of Hicks; undisciplined at the plate, boneheaded plays in the outfield and questionable work ethic.  Is it me or have the Twins been drafting more of these types lately?

 

Anyways, if the starting pitching continues to stink i think you start looking at Berrios and Meyer.  I REALLY REALLY like what we've seen from Berrios so far.  Kid has great work ethic, determination, guts and the stuff to go with it.  He has a strong mental game.  Callup Berrios, DFA Pelfrey and then find a way to move Nolasco at some point making way for Meyer even if we have to eat a big chunk of his salary.  Not sure that they would be willing to dump Milone at this point unless its for good prospects.  

 

Sano.  I definitely see a mid may call up depending on how he handles Chattanooga.  Plouffe has been AWFUL so far.  Perhaps he turns it around, but how much longer do the Twins put up with the low batting average and high strikeout rates when he can't even get a hit period, let alone the occassional homerun?  I think at the very least you bench him in favor of Escobar who can hit .250 and play the position adequately at least for the time being. 

Edited April 14, 2015 by laloesch

[Jham]

 

I don't agree with that. That's maybe what they said, and they should say... but I think that Ryan regained control with the managerial change. The roster decisions were all business decisions. 

 

The one exception might be the backup catcher. Molitor really likes Herrmann, and Pinto's concussion likely got Ryan to option him and keep Herrmann.

 

Stauffer - he was a free agent they weren't going to drop before the regular season.

Boyer - had the opt-out... the other guys had options. 

Robinson - the same.

 

5th starter - Pelfrey would have been lost. Pelfrey and Milone were making money. May had an option left. 

 

Nunez over Bernier is about the contract. 

 

How I imagine the managerial discussion went:

 

TR: Who do you think should start at shortstop?

Gardy: I like Escobar at Short and Santana in Center.

TR:  You're fired.

 

Mientkiewicz: Whoever gives us the best chance of winning.

TR: We'll let you know.

 

Molitor: Whoever you think is best, sir.

TR: You're hired!

 

We're starting Santana  at shortstop even though it leaves a gaping hole in center, Escobar is better and still young, scouts say his infield D is mediocre, and we're really just looking for a stop-gap to Polanco. I am positive TR orchestrated this, but Molitor is still the manager and ultimately responsible for line ups. 

[laloesch]

 

Wow what a crazy stat! I can only imagine the look on Calvin Griffith's face that night with 5,213 fans in the crowd. Thanks for a great bar trivia question that I can stump my fellow mid 20 year old friends with

 

Yeah that's crazy!  I couldn't imagine. 

[Mike Sixel]

Why care about losing Stauffer and Boyer........this fear of losing bad players continues to baffle me.

[Tibs]

Bad defensive fundamentals, or bad fundamentals in general, at the MLB level and a team that looks like it doesn't care is on the coaching. Fortunately, it has only been 7 games. However, even if the team improves on those things, this team is still bad how it is currently constructed. 

[Dman]

 

Why care about losing Stauffer and Boyer........this fear of losing bad players continues to baffle me.

 

The Stauffer signing never made sense to me.  Seemed like they paid more and were getting a lesser player.  I trusted TR on that on.  Figured he saw something others didn't. 

 

Boyer was on the other side of thrity and I thought he pitched well this spring.  Personally I would have liked to see the younger guys but that is just me.  

 

As Seth stated likely business decisions but even that seems marginal since you have the option to use younger players that likely wouldn't be any worse than these guys.  I guess to start you go with guys that have experience already?

[SDTwinsFan]

Did Nolasco really "boo" back at the camera yesterday when he was announced? I wasn't able to see the pregame.... That would be pretty crappy of him, I realize that it must be tough to hear boos directed at you, but maybe he should try to not be the worst pitcher in the league?