Article: Ervin Santana Suspended 80 Games For Steroids

[jimmer]

 

Most valuable when you have a $hitty bullpen and need to go directly to the set up and closer to get wins.  8 innings a game didn't mean much for the Royals last year with that stud bullpen.

I hear ya, but full disclosure: Royals starters had the third most IP in the AL last season.

 

Guess which team in the AL had the least amount of rotation IP? :-)

Edited April 5, 2015 by jimmer

[Brock Beauchamp]

 

Hiring an investigative firm to do thorough background checks is a pretty inexpensive means at ensuring the viability of a $55M deal.  I'm sure the Twins did something along these lines, obviously it wasn't thorough enough if Santana has been a user in years past, and given the current CBA agreement, there's practically nothing they could have done about it if he only started PED usage after he signed the new contract- but that seems unlikely.

 

Yes, this is on Santana, and it appears he, and likely, his agent, perpetrated a fraud on the Twins.  But given the bilker's built-in advantages in negotiating guaranteed contracts despite the fraud, the onus is even more on the Twins to avoid being suckered.

This is absurd. Are you honestly advocating the Twins to start rifling through free agents' garbage before signing anyone?

 

This is not on the Twins. They signed a contract in good faith and were taken by a cheater (presuming Santana's story isn't on the up-and-up, I personally have a hard time believing he didn't know what he was taking).

 

The problem here is that baseball contracts are too iron clad... Any breach of contract of this magnitude should allow the team to terminate the contract. One can't expect an employer to rifle through a guy's past so deeply that they uncover possible drug use when that guy has never been associated with drugs in the past.

 

Either Santana just started taking these drugs, which deflects any potential blame away from the Twins, or he's so wily that several teams missed the fact that he's a PED user (after all, Ervin Santana played for three different teams from 2012-2014... If the Twins are somehow culpable then so are the Angels, Royals, and Braves).

[Thrylos]

 

 

The problem here is that baseball contracts are too iron clad... Any breach of contract of this magnitude should allow the team to terminate the contract.

 

That's exactly the issue.  And if the majority of the players who are saying that the cheaters are cheating them, they should have the ability of a club to void a cheater's contract as part of the next CBA.

 

But we shall see...

[Monkeypaws]

I'll tell ya, this has been the ultimate cold shower on my "enthusiasm" about the Twins this year, to the point I've been avoiding Twins Daily, and all things Twins related. Erv was the linchpin in my belief we would be better this season. Pretty dumbfounding situation from 10,000 feet.

[Otto von Ballpark]

While it's hard to blame the Twins, the downside risk of a injury or suspension is greater when you sign over-30 players (and average-ish over-30 players to boot), which is something the Twins have been doing repeatedly lately.

 

A 28 year old injured/suspended for the first half season of a four year contract?  Not a huge problem, you still have full ages 29-31.

 

A 32 year old ace missing for the first half season of a contract?  Sucks, but the player is good enough that even with some decline, ages 33-35 project as useful.

 

An average-ish 32 year old?  The team really needs that first year to get good value on that contract.

 

Very weird that Santana was suspended before even playing a game with his new team (has that ever happened before?), but the Twins were sorta playing with fire by targeting these kind of players, and have arguably been burned twice already (Nolasco injury, Santana suspension).

[nicksaviking]

Either Santana just started taking these drugs, which deflects any potential blame away from the Twins, or he's so wily that several teams missed the fact that he's a PED user (after all, Ervin Santana played for three different teams from 2012-2014... If the Twins are somehow culpable then so are the Angels, Royals, and Braves).

While this is on Santana, there doesn't seem to be any supporting evidence that any team other than the Twins were willing to give this guy more than a one year deal, and the Twins of course tried to sign him up for three+ years twice. I'd guess the other clubs were rightfully suspicious about his consistancy, age or his UCL, but for all we know, other clubs had doping suspicions, especially his former clubs who knew him much better.

 

There's one thing that I've been thinking about today. I think it's pretty well understood that Ryan is well respected in the league, regardless if fans here think he should be replaced. I'd bet that normally GMs may warn other GMs they like about particular players, however, in this case Ryan probably would have been kept out of the loop. The Braves made a QO clearly to only get a draft pick as they made no further attempt to re-sign him, so John Hart wasn't going to be giving anyone a heads-up and Dayton Moore probably would feel compelled to keep his mouth shut so a division rival would be hurt by the consequences. And of course judging by how he handled himself with the Josh Hamilton situation, Jerry DiPoto has no friends and is a world class scumbag.

Edited April 6, 2015 by nicksaviking

[jokin]

 

This is absurd. Are you honestly advocating the Twins to start rifling through free agents' garbage before signing anyone?

 

This is not on the Twins. They signed a contract in good faith and were taken by a cheater (presuming Santana's story isn't on the up-and-up, I personally have a hard time believing he didn't know what he was taking).

 

The problem here is that baseball contracts are too iron clad... Any breach of contract of this magnitude should allow the team to terminate the contract. One can't expect an employer to rifle through a guy's past so deeply that they uncover possible drug use when that guy has never been associated with drugs in the past.

 

Either Santana just started taking these drugs, which deflects any potential blame away from the Twins, or he's so wily that several teams missed the fact that he's a PED user (after all, Ervin Santana played for three different teams from 2012-2014... If the Twins are somehow culpable then so are the Angels, Royals, and Braves).

 

Actually, this is not absurd,   it's what investigators do.    Street-side trash has stood multiple court tests over the years as fair game and available to the general public for perusal in multiple munincipalities.   

 

You stated the problem well in the part I bolded, but with that reality, the dangers of going into this type of deal for a small-market team have to come into that very caveat.    The risk and chances for getting burned for individual cheating are exteremely skewed toward the teams- who are not allowed to terminate contracts, fine or suspend, and they can't even authorize PED testing of their own players, or apparently, prospective players-    shoiuldn't a medical screening exam for prospective employment, as well as continuing employment, contain a drug test, as it does for key employees in many industries for jobs that are so highly performance-related?

 

And I did allow for the fact that Santana may have just started taking the PEDs, but the Twins still are prohibited as the club, individually, from protecting their investment (gamble) from the perpetration of fraud.    This certainly does deflect the blame away from the Twins.     But this built-in doubt for a bullet-proof clean player, thanks largely to the CBA, must be taken into account when taking on the risk of a 4-year deal when there are other red flags surrounding the deal, as well. (As Spycake put it so well just above in #186, "sorta playing with fire" by targeting these types of players).

 

And if you had read my prevous two posts contained in this thread on this matter-   I have twice accounted for the previous teams that Santana has played for-    though they are not any less culpable-   they are all not the team left holding the bag, either. 

 

(The MLB system is set up such that it rewards abusers to continue going undetected- and to its employers to ignore the issue- which corrupts the clubs' incentives for doing "the right thing."    How many clubs to this date have self-reported discovered PED abuse?    And it goes even farther than that.   The book, Bloodsport, pointed out that Alex Rodriguez in 2007, along with at least 110 others, were allowed by MLB to use steroids through legal exemptions.    And that as a direct result, A-Rod won the AL MVP award in that year.)

Edited April 6, 2015 by jokin

[chopper0080]

 

The kicker is, though, with Santana out of the picture, that young talent still isn't on the roster.

Perhaps that was never the plan.

 

My guess is that Ryan and the Twins are not as high on Meyer and May as we are.  You have to believe if either player was top of the rotation quality, they would have forced their way onto the roster by now.  Neither are young prospects.  No other reason to put guys like MiIlone and Pelfrey over them .

[chopper0080]

 

This is absurd. Are you honestly advocating the Twins to start rifling through free agents' garbage before signing anyone?

 

This is not on the Twins. They signed a contract in good faith and were taken by a cheater (presuming Santana's story isn't on the up-and-up, I personally have a hard time believing he didn't know what he was taking).

 

The problem here is that baseball contracts are too iron clad... Any breach of contract of this magnitude should allow the team to terminate the contract. One can't expect an employer to rifle through a guy's past so deeply that they uncover possible drug use when that guy has never been associated with drugs in the past.

 

Either Santana just started taking these drugs, which deflects any potential blame away from the Twins, or he's so wily that several teams missed the fact that he's a PED user (after all, Ervin Santana played for three different teams from 2012-2014... If the Twins are somehow culpable then so are the Angels, Royals, and Braves).

This is kind of a naive statement, because this is what most businesses are expected to do.  You should make sure you look into the backgrounds of players before you sign them to large contracts.  Businesses do the same before buying other businesses.  You want to ensure your investment is solid, and you get what you are paying for.  I don't know how much the Twins do this, but if they don't, they are putting themselves in line to be the sucker. 

 

"Good faith" in business is a fairy tale.  It is up to the buyer to ensure it is not getting taken for a ride, not the other way around.

[laloesch]

 

My guess is that Ryan and the Twins are not as high on Meyer and May as we are.  You have to believe if either player was top of the rotation quality, they would have forced their way onto the roster by now.  Neither are young prospects.  No other reason to put guys like MiIlone and Pelfrey over them .

 

 I don't agree.  While Meyer needs a bit more polish, May just needs to be stretched out in a couple of starts and he's ready.  

 

I think TR is trying to save his job by winning games early and drawing more fans this season.  Remember season attendance has been plummeting the last few seasons.   I'm convinced that he and the rest of his staff are on the hot seat with ownership.  The Pohlads do care about one thing and that is making a profit on their team.  Ryan can't afford to lose 90-100 games this season.  

 

I think he is gambling that the Mike Pelfrey's, Tommy Milone's, Ricky Nolasco's and uhh Ervin Santana's were going to save his skin this season.    

[jimmer]

Didn't the Twins almost double in value this last year?  They're making money.

[chopper0080]

 

 I don't agree.  While Meyer needs a bit more polish, May just needs to be stretched out in a couple of starts and he's ready.  

 

I think TR is trying to save his job by winning games early and drawing more fans this season.  Remember season attendance has been plummeting the last few seasons.   I'm convinced that he and the rest of his staff are on the hot seat with ownership.  The Pohlads do care about one thing and that is making a profit on their team.  Ryan can't afford to lose 90-100 games this season.  

 

I think he is gambling that the Mike Pelfrey's, Tommy Milone's, Ricky Nolasco's and uhh Ervin Santana's were going to save his skin this season.    

Re: Meyer, not being able to throw strikes is a big issue for a starting pitcher, especially for the Twins.  It isn't as big of an issue for relief pitchers. 

 

Re: May, he can get stretched out at the major league level like Pelfrey will.  Using a veteran bullpen early for a non-contending team is not a huge issue. 

 

Again, talent rises to the top, and if these guys (in their mid 20s) can't beat out Milone and Pelfrey, then they are probably not what we are hoping they will be.  It's that or Ryan is purposefully putting worse players on the field which would hope is not the case.

[Brock Beauchamp]

This is kind of a naive statement, because this is what most businesses are expected to do. You should make sure you look into the backgrounds of players before you sign them to large contracts. Businesses do the same before buying other businesses. You want to ensure your investment is solid, and you get what you are paying for. I don't know how much the Twins do this, but if they don't, they are putting themselves in line to be the sucker.

 

"Good faith" in business is a fairy tale. It is up to the buyer to ensure it is not getting taken for a ride, not the other way around.

If you can find a single example of a baseball team digging into a player's life to the extent of rooting through his trash before signing the player, I will concede that my statement is "naive".

 

Good luck with that.

 

"Signing a contract in good faith" does not mean skipping research into a player. It means you don't dig deeply into areas where there are no reasons to expect a problem (eg. digging extensively into the drug history of a player who has never been linked to drug use). EVERY contract ever signed has a "good faith" element to it because not everything can be known about another person. You

do what you can to mitigate risk but if the other person is devious and clever enough, you WILL get screwed.

[chopper0080]

 

If you can find a single example of a baseball team digging into a player's life to the extent of rooting through his trash before signing the player, I will concede that my statement is "naive".

Good luck with that.

"Signing a contract in good faith" does not mean skipping research into a player. It means you don't dig deeply into areas where there are no reasons to expect a problem (eg. digging extensively into the drug history of a player who has never been linked to drug use). EVERY contract ever signed has a "good faith" element to it because not everything can be known about another person. You
do what you can to mitigate risk but if the other person is devious and clever enough, you WILL get screwed.

Ok, you are right, good luck finding an example of the interval vetting of free agents by professional baseball teams.  Come on.  You bring up "rooting through his trash" where as my point was it is there responsibility to due their due dilligence to ensure they get their return on investment.

 

In terms of the rest, you speak about not digging when you have no reason to do so...ok, so there isn't a red flag on a decent player who can't seem to stick on a team (three teams in three years)?  There isn't a red flag on players potential or historical use of PEDs, especially with the run of latin american players who have tested positive?  You act like the Twins aren't a multi million dollar corporation that is looking to sink millions into acquiring a player.  Yes, there is will always be a risk with people, but it is still your responsibility to do the necessary investigation.

 

This example is like a team in the 90s claiming they had no reason to suspect a player was on steroids yet, lo and behold, most were.  If any of us were to buy a used car, I would expect that we would get it checked out before we paid the cash.  If not, we would deserve the lemon that was sold to us.  That is my point, you can't put the blame of the Twins signing Santana on Santana.  I'm sure the Twins did check out Santana, but obviously, they didn't do a good enough job.  Own it, look to improve in the future, and move forward.

Edited April 6, 2015 by chopper0080

[jokin]

 

If you can find a single example of a baseball team digging into a player's life to the extent of rooting through his trash before signing the player, I will concede that my statement is "naive".


do what you can to mitigate risk but if the other person is devious and clever enough, you WILL get screwed.

 

You won't find any evidence if they do or don't, as they would hire an investigative agency to do the leg work and approved proposed methodologies for seeking information would remain confidential.   In the cases of Bonds, A-Rod, Clemens and some other frontline players, I'm fairly certain detectives were hired once the League came under fire for having looked the other way throughout the 90s, by some entity, be it a team or teams, or the League, in addition to legal authorities. And I would bet that the target's trash was searched.  

 

Yes, the Twins did get screwed, but I challenge you to demonstrate that Ervin Santana is some sort of "evil mastermind", this is also on the Twins for failing to heed the very basis and cornerstone of high-risk finance-  

 

Caveat Emptor.

Edited April 6, 2015 by jokin

[TheLeviathan]

 

Didn't the Twins almost double in value this last year?  They're making money.

 

Their value isn't merely a function of their profit margin.  Yes, they're making money, but that doesn't mean you want your seats empty and your home market becoming indifferent to your product.

 

They should be driven by improvement to keep fan interest, but it's certainly arguable that they've gone about doing that poorly.  

[Squirrel]

I've removed three posts from this thread. If I have to remove any more I will close this thread. We are all frustrated but let's keep it civil.

[stringer bell]

In the traditional view of steroid users, I think Ervin Santana would be an unlikely candidate to be a steroid user.  My brother and I both commented about how slight he is (in person), which is not the typical view of steroid user (Bonds, A-Rod etc). 

 

On closer examination, and considering the properties of the steroid he used, it makes more sense that a 30-something pitcher with a UCL injury might use something to deal with recovery from stress on the UCL.  I agree that 100% of the blame needs to be laid on the doorstep of the abuser. 

 

It has become the accepted response to issue a non-denial denial or more accurately an non-admission admission of guilt.  I wish he would just tell the truth, but there is acceptance of such statements.

[Minniman]

This season was lost already. It was before Santana was suspended.

 

Terry Ryan should not bring up the young players until they are ready. To do so would not only hamper their development, it would also give them more time at the major league level and allow them to become UFA more quickly. Is that what fans really want?

 

Neither Santana nor Nolasco were worth the contracts they were given. The Twins needed an ace and a second starter, and they signed veteran third starters to second starter money. It was a waste of money to begin with, and now it looks even worse.

 

 

 

[Kwak]

"...until they are ready..." Players aren't like bananas. Sometimes the "best" player is the younger/inexperienced player.  Occasionally (all too often) the failed rookie was never destined to be productive--but he still might be the best available. Sorry to say it, but the comment "until they are ready" is basically a self-serving, glittering generality, that is based on hindsight--if he succeeded he was ready, and if he "didn't" he wasn't ready.

[Mike Sixel]

I really waffled on this signing.....on top of the Nolasco deal. IT seems that they should be able to void this deal, but apparently, not.