Article: The Fringe

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

I'm not sure "we'll be just fine if the bench rarely has to play, the starters pitch more than is reasonable to expect, and only 3 of 7 relievers pitch any time the game is close" is a viable way to start the season.

 

I guess we'll find out.

I am just waiting for the Dave St. Peter tweet, "Amazed at focus on 20th through 25th men on the roster."

[Loosey]

Maybe it's just me but it seems to me that the Twins are afraid of failure (Even though they have been failing for 4 years now).  But in terms of letting inexperienced players fail.  No matter how much success or how many innings a player plays in the minors they will not know what the big stage is like until they get there.  It's almost as if the Twins want our minor leaguers to be major leaguers playing in the minors before they finally bring them up.  Now I'm not for bringing up someone who will completely and utterly be in over his head on the big team, but if someone like Meyer or May comes up and fails this year, what does that hurt?  If they ruin their confidence then clearly they aren't ever going to be ready for the Major Leagues.  If I were GM/Manager this is the year I say, "you know what, eff it. Lets have fun and see what these kids can do".  Because in reality what is the difference if they finish the 65-97 or 75-87 beside one place in the division? 

[diehardtwinsfan]

I think that Hermann is the guy sent down when Pinto returns.  The options reason is one (Nunez has none), but also, who exactly is Herrman going to be a defensive sub for?  You can use the other half of the Schaffer/Robinson platoon to swap out for Arcia or Hunter if there's a lead.  I don't see Herrman being an upgrade over anyone in the infield either. Nunez at least has a bat.

 

Now if Hermann plays like he played in AAA last season, that's a whole different story.

[Otto von Ballpark]

 

who exactly is Herrman going to be a defensive sub for?  You can use the other half of the Schaffer/Robinson platoon to swap out for Arcia or Hunter if there's a lead.

Ideally, you would sub out both corner outfielders at times.  (That's why I thought it might be better to dump Nunez for a real outfielder.)  Not sure if Herrmann would be the guy to do it, but I am guessing they won't do that to Hunter anyway.

[shimrod]

That was often the case under Gardenhire. I don't think we should assume it will be under Molitor. But as the article concludes, that remains to be seen.

 

Perhaps Gardy had no say on who made up his roster. Molitor may be in the same boat. I'm sure they get to express their opinion but that doesn't mean their boss is paying much attention to it.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Also, Herrmann's value as another catcher is going to be dependent on how far Suzuki regresses. Also, given Schafer/Robinson, it might be wise to use Pinto as a pinch hitter in absolutely every game that he doesn't start. Another reason for Herrmann to be on the roster instead of Nunez. 9th inning OF alignment of Schafer-Robinson-Herrmann is not bad.

 

Of course Schafer-Farris-Robinson is even better.

just say no to three catchers

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Ideally, you would sub out both corner outfielders at times. (That's why I thought it might be better to dump Nunez for a real outfielder.) Not sure if Herrmann would be the guy to do it, but I am guessing they won't do that to Hunter anyway.

this is the reason why I disagree with Nick's assertion that Robinson/Schafer was the breakout for defense. If the FO cared a bit about OF defense, Arcia and Hunter wouldn't both be the corner outfielders. If you need to sub out both corner outfielders to make a competent fielding outfield AND one of the subs is a catcher, something has gone awry.

 

Edit: to clarify, I think the hope with CF is for one of them to catch lighting in a bottle and create trade value. I don't think its because the Team particularly wanted Hicks to get AAA time or that Schafer/Robinson were necessarily the best options.

[jorgenswest]

just say no to three catchers

I generally agree. However, I think Pinto's bat is needed on the bench and then it comes down to a choice of Nunez and Herrmann. Nunez doesn't offer anything on the bench. Molitor said he doesn't see him in the outfield. The Yankees dropped him because he couldnt handle 2B. His only real position is 3B.

 

Escobar is the better utility option defensively and overall. He needs to be in the lineup every opportunity. Any Nunez gets takes away from him. Pinto is the better right handed bench bat. Robinson runs well.

 

It seems like Herrmann and his ability to catch and play the outfield and first helps more. He also can shuttle back and forth when the need for the 13th pitcher surfaces.

 

Ultimately it could be neither if both Hicks and Rosario do well.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

I generally agree. However, I think Pinto's bat is needed on the bench and then it comes down to a choice of Nunez and Herrmann. Nunez doesn't offer anything on the bench. Molitor said he doesn't see him in the outfield. The Yankees dropped him because he couldnt handle 2B. His only real position is 3B.

Escobar is the better utility option defensively and overall. He needs to be in the lineup every opportunity. Any Nunez gets takes away from him. Pinto is the better right handed bench bat. Robinson runs well.

It seems like Herrmann and his ability to catch and play the outfield and first helps more. He also can shuttle back and forth when the need for the 13th pitcher surfaces.

Ultimately it could be neither if both Hicks and Rosario do well.

i would rather have Pinto's bat in the starting lineup at catcher

[DocBauer]

Pinto is very debatable. Should he have been brought along regardless? Or does his limited innings and AB's during ST...along with a solid ST from Herrmann...indicate it to be more prudent to give him some time to recoup, get AB's, and get ready to come back soon? I'm asking. Because in this case, I can see management's decision actually making sense.

 

As to Nunez...get off his back. (MHO) Why do people need a scapegoat? Poor pitching is the number one reason for 4 straight bad seasons, followed by lack of offense and clutch offense...at least until last season. You can argue reasons 3 & 4 etc as much as you want, in what ever you want. Nunez, the last man on the bench, versatile positionaly with mediocre to OK glove, decent bat with some pop and decent speed, is NOT the reason this team lost 90 games the past few seasons.

 

A little perspective in your frustration folks.

[jimmer]

 

hy do people need a scapegoat? Poor pitching is the number one reason for 4 straight bad seasons, followed by lack of offense and clutch offense...at least until last season. 

Overall team defense was a huge factor the last couple seasons, especially OF defense, and made the pitching look even worse than it is.  We have done nothing to address that.

[stringer bell]

I think stability will improve the OF defense. The Twins must have had at least eight guys start more than ten games in the outfield. Many of them didn't belong.

[jimmer]

 

I think stability will improve the OF defense. The Twins must have had at least eight guys start more than ten games in the outfield. Many of them didn't belong.

I'm not sure having two of the worst fielding fielding corner OF in the game play MORE will make the OF defense BETTER, but one can hope.

[USAFChief]

I'm not sure having two of the worst fielding fielding corner OF in the game play MORE will make the OF defense BETTER, but one can hope.

I'm hoping my instinct that Hunter's and Arcia's defense aren't as bad as advertised is correct, and that my instinct that corner OF defense doesn't matter as much as advertised is correct, and in total we're worrying too much about both.

 

I've seen too many good teams with immobile corner OFers to think it has a big impact.

[stringer bell]

 

I'm hoping my instinct that Hunter's and Arcia's defense aren't as bad as advertised is correct, and that my instinct that corner OF defense doesn't matter as much as advertised is correct, and in total we're worrying too much about both.

I've seen too many good teams with immobile corner OFers to think it has a big impact.

As long as the corner OFers hit like corner OFers.

[USAFChief]

As long as the corner OFers hit like corner OFers.

Concur. Hunter, for example, has to hit to be worth it. And I'm more nervous about that than his defense.

[Hrbowski]

Fringe players will always be available on the waiver wire, so we really don't have to worry about these ones not working out.

[jimmer]

 

I've seen too many good teams with immobile corner OFers to think it has a big impact.

we aren't a good team though.  our pitching staff, such as it is, doesn't need more handicaps than the ones their own mediocre stuff creates..  

 

seemed to have a pretty big impact on our team the last couple years as outs became singles and doubles which extended innings and allowed runs to score when it would have been three outs. didn't help our CF defense wasn't any good either, and this year it likely won't be either.

 

I'm curious where does defense matter on a team, if at all?

[jimmer]

I think if a team has ONE bad defensive corner OF starting for them they may be able to lessen the effect by shading a good-great defensive CF that way while allowing the okay to good OF on the other corner hold his own.  I've seen a lot of that over the years.

 

Having TWO REALLY bad defenders on both corners plus, at best, an average defensive CF, is going to cause problems as it has the last few seasons. Especially when the pitching staff has underwhelming stuff that results in a lot of contact.

Edited April 4, 2015 by jimmer

[USAFChief]

I'm curious where does defense matter on a team, if at all?

Everywhere.

 

But I think it has more impact in the infield. CF and catcher. Then corner OF.

 

My belief about outfield is, in general, most of the plays are routine outs, and there will be no difference between Hunter and whoever the best RFer is on those plays. Where Hunter will suffer is on the edge of his range, where a faster player will have a step or two and make an extra catch here and there. But I think we're talking about very few plays. If you could draw a rough circle around Hunter depicting his "range," it wouldn't be much smaller than the circle around the RFer with the best range. The number of balls that fall in delta between the two circles just can't be very many. CFers have more space to cover behind them, so speed to get to balls they don't catch becomes more important, and their range may play up more on balls hot over there head.

 

I also believe there's more to playing defense than just range. I doubt Hunter's arm is subpar, nor will he often throw to the wrong spot, miss the cutoff, or commit other "errors" that don't show up as "errors."

 

IF play, on the other hand, is in general comprised of mostly much harder plays. Just fielding a grounder cleanly is way more difficult than catching a ball in the air, so right there defensive ability becomes more important because of the much greater chance of mishandling a batted ball. But that's only part of the job in the infield, to record an out there is often a throw involved, again increasing the risk of a misplay. Infielders also handle the ball more when it's in play, on relays, stolen base attempts, etc. Add that all up, and the difference between a good shortstop and a bad one is pretty significant.

 

All of which leads me to believe, in the grand scheme of things, the difference between major league corner outfielders isn't something I worry about much.

 

Just one man's opinion.

[jimmer]

 

Everywhere.

But I think it has more impact in the infield. CF and catcher. Then corner OF.

My belief about outfield is, in general, most of the plays are routine outs, and there will be no difference between Hunter and whoever the best RFer is on those plays. Where Hunter will suffer is on the edge of his range, where a faster player will have a step or two and make an extra catch here and there. But I think we're talking about very few plays. If you could draw a rough circle around Hunter depicting his "range," it wouldn't be much smaller than the circle around the RFer with the best range. The number of balls that fall in delta between the two circles just can't be very many. .

Well, we can see if your belief s true about the whole circle thing :-)

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/the-twins-may-have-weakened-a-weakness/

 

If you go to the link provided, in a stroy entitled 'The Twins may have weakened a weakness, you will see the chart for Heyward and Hunter. It's right below this paragraph:

 

'It’s difficult to be too hard on Hunter, of course, because he’s 39 years old. The expectation shouldn’t be that he’s going to be anything other than brutal in the outfield, and while you don’t really need a visual aid to compare last year’s worst right fielder to the best, I’ll show you the made/missed charts between Hunter and Jason Heyward anyway:'

 

I don't think having Hunter would be so bad if he had an above average CF next to him and at least an average corner on the other end.  

 

Just my opinion

Edited April 5, 2015 by jimmer