Article: Hunter And Garnett: The Marketing Angle

[Nick Nelson]

After a lengthy absence, Kevin Garnett made his triumphant return to Target Center on Wednesday night, helping lead the Timberwolves to a blowout victory in front of a packed house. After the game, coach Flip Saunders said that it was the most energetic and enthusiastic he could remember the arena being in a regular-season game -- a stark contrast to the typically bleak environment at Wolves games this year.

 

Watching it all play out, I suddenly find myself understanding the Twins' decision to sign Torii Hunter a little more.The parallels between the current situations of the Wolves and Twins are quite distinct. Here you have two retooling teams that are fueled by hugely promising waves of youth, but have been unable to hold the attention and interest of casual fans due to brutally bad on-field performance.

 

You can point to the bright future all you want, but that's a tough sell when your team has one of the worst records in the league. And while many want to point to personnel miscues in both of these stalled rebuilds, the truth is that uncontrollable injury issues have been largely to blame.

 

The Wolves are not as bad a team as their 13-43 record suggests, but losing Ricky Rubio, Nikola Pekovic and other key players for sizable chunks of the season left them depleted, relying on overmatched backups and teenagers. As a result, the Wolves have suffered through loss after loss, watching fan interest drain in the process.

 

That's a shame, because it has caused the incredibly encouraging performances from some young players -- most notably Andrew Wiggins -- to get overlooked. Somewhat quietly, Wiggins is enjoying one of the best seasons for a player his age in NBA history, but fans here in Minnesota have been so uninvested in the team that many haven't fully taken notice.

 

The arrival of Garnett certainly provides a jolt on the court; though, at this stage of his career, probably not one as substantial as the giddy TV crew on Wednesday night would have you believe. More importantly, he's bringing back the fans. Nostalgia and familiarity for KG prompted Wolves faithful to fill up Target Center for his first game back and will almost certainly lead to increased attendance the rest of the year.

 

While it's all well and good that those fans will get to watch KG do his thing for 20 minutes a night, the more important thing is that they'll get to watch players like Rubio, Wiggins, Zach LaVine and Shabazz Muhammad. KG isn't the future -- those guys are.

 

The same dynamic is in play for the Twins with the Hunter signing. While the organization is moving in the right direction, casual fans can't be blamed for their reluctance to buy in after a fourth straight 90-loss season. While the club hardly expected to contend last year, they did expect to offer more glimpses of the promising future. Unfortunately, having the seasons of their two best prospects completely derailed by injury threw a big wrench into what should have been a youth showcase summer.

 

The Twins still had young players like Danny Santana and Kennys Vargas break through, but those performances garnered reduced fanfare with the club posting its lowest attendance total since 2005.

 

A beloved and familiar face like Hunter, who people associate with the success of the mid-2000s, will help draw back some of the less hardcore fans that might not presently have kids like Byron Buxton and Miguel Sano on their radar.

 

I continue to believe that Hunter is a rather poor fit from a baseball perspective, but I'm coming around on the potential overall benefits of the move. It's more challenging for me to analyze anything from a business angle than strictly wins-and-losses, but the value of getting more fans in the seats -- and exposing those fans to what should hopefully be an exciting and productive group of young players -- is obvious.

 

With both the Hunter and Garnett additions, there was some initial backlash that perhaps too much was given up to acquire players who won't be around long and won't drastically improve the quality of their respective teams. But in the big picture, the Wolves gave up a guy in Thaddeus Young who wasn't going to be part of the long-term equation, and while the Twins paid heftily for Hunter, they gave up nothing but money and it's a one-year deal.

 

My initial reaction was that Hunter's "intangible" qualities were not enough to justify spending that much while surpassing other options who would have fit better as players, and I still believe his impact as a leader and mentor is being overblown to some extent, but seeing the response to Garnett's return does open my eyes a bit.

 

If a casual fan shuffled into Target Center on Wednesday because of the Garnett buzz and then watched Rubio deliver a gorgeous bounce pass to Wiggins, who

as part of an impressive 19-point performance, the trade is paying dividends well beyond what KG is doing on the court.

 

Hopefully the same can be true of a Twins fan who might be enticed to come to the ballpark to relive some Hunter nostalgia, only to be treated to a triple by Buxton, a prodigious home run by Oswaldo Arcia or a 10-strikeout game from Alex Meyer or Trevor May.

 

Bringing back past franchise fixtures -- who at least have a chance to contribute positively -- to help get fans invested in the young players that really matter. That's not so hard to figure.

 

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[kab21]

I still don't understand the complaints about signing Hunter.  10M is not a hefty amount on a one year contract.  He might be a bad fit in some ways but the alternative was fielding an OF Arcia, Schafer, Hicks, Rosario or the AAAA types that we have seen in recent years.  I highly doubt Hunter is taking at bats away from legitimate players of the future.   Aoki and Rasmus might (and only might) have been better fits but also shouldn't be considered part of the future (even the young Rasmus).

 

But the more important part than the marketing angle and fan interest is that it puts a veteran in the locker room that shows players how to play the game right.  That might sound cheesy but young players need strong role models even if those role models aren't great players anymore.

[KGB]

 

 

But the more important part than the marketing angle and fan interest is that it puts a veteran in the locker room that shows players how to play the game right.  That might sound cheesy but young players need strong role models even if those role models aren't great players anymore.

 

I think Molitor thinks the leadership is important. He spent a year in the locker and this was the first sigining they went after. The marketing is important and you could tell at Twins Fest it was a good move. On a one year investment, it should pay off for the Twins.

[dxpavelka]

I also challenge anyone to name 10 American League outfielders who had better offensive seasons than Hunter did last year.  Not to say that will translate to this year or  that it might not hurt our outfield defense but could it be any worse than last year?

[gunnarthor]

Yeah, my biggest worry with Hunter is his age.  At a certain point, players just drop off the cliff.  I'm hoping that doesn't happen to Torii this season but it could.  I think the shift to TF and the shifting that Molitor will do will make his defense liveable if his bat is working.

 

I also agree with kab - Hunter on a one year deal is blocking anyone and no other FA was really exciting alternative.

[big dog]

I also challenge anyone to name 10 American League outfielders who had better offensive seasons than Hunter did last year.  

And the beast has been poked...

[JB_Iowa]

Well, it's Spring so I'm hoping this all works out.  I'm another one who didn't fully appreciate how popular Hunter would be.  And we'll hope his game doesn't fall off a cliff until he's 42.

 

We can talk about prospects/young players all we want bur for the most part we haven't seen them yet.  I think severak iof them have the charisma to replace Torii (Vargas would be my top choice) but they have a lot to show us on the field first.

[gunnarthor]

Well, it's Spring so I'm hoping this all works out.  I'm another one who didn't fully appreciate how popular Hunter would be.  And we'll hope his game doesn't fall off a cliff until he's 42.

 

We can talk about prospects/young players all we want bur for the most part we haven't seen them yet.  I think severak iof them have the charisma to replace Torii (Vargas would be my top choice) but they have a lot to show us on the field first.

Yeah, in the long run, I think this ends up being "Sano's team" from all I've read about him.  He's loud (in a good way), popular with teammates, cocky (again, in a good way) and competitive both team-wise and individually (meaning, I think he'd be upset if the team had a 6-game losing streak).  Hopefully, he gets healthy and starts crushing balls into TF soon.

[Platoon]

I understand the parallels, but there are several important points. Garnett does not seem to care if he actually plays regularly. Hunter has, and will continue to insist on when, and where he plays. The Wolfies have a lot of their future here, there is no real minor league NBA, so Garnett is not blocking someone he is supposed to be "mentoring"! And of the 4 players you listed as being exciting for the fans to watch perform, while showing up at the game to see Torii, there is a fair chance they will have to got to Rochester or Chatanooga to see 3 of them.

[Seth Stohs]

Yeah, I think a lot of people don't understand that leadership and personality is very important in team sports. Obviously guys have to be able to play as well, but there's no question that Garnett and Hunter bring the type of presence, that (hopefully) will bring the best out of others. 

[Captain Nifty]

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

 

This article serves as a perfect opportunity to ask a question I've been wondering about for a few months. So there's a Twins Daily, a Vikings Journal and a Wild Xtra. What about a Wolves Press...name is up for debate of course but you get the idea. The Wolves have such an exciting young core of players and have really been fun to follow since the Love trade. Is there really not enough interest?

[rghrbek]

Comparing the parallels between the two is understandable (both played well in MN).  However, one is a hall of fame player, top 5 ever at his position.  The other a nice player who had some very good years, but far from a HOFer.

 

Like Nick though, I've come around a bit on the mentoring thing with Hunter. I don't expect him to put up the numbers, even from last year (look at the two guys batting behind him last year compared to the two who will be behind him this year),  but if he can get a few of the younger guys to achieve more, then it's not all bad. 

[HitInAPinch]

I still don't understand the complaints about signing Hunter.  10M is not a hefty amount on a one year contract.  He might be a bad fit in some ways but the alternative was fielding an OF Arcia, Schafer, Hicks, Rosario or the AAAA types that we have seen in recent years.  I highly doubt Hunter is taking at bats away from legitimate players of the future.   Aoki and Rasmus might (and only might) have been better fits but also shouldn't be considered part of the future (even the young Rasmus).

 

But the more important part than the marketing angle and fan interest is that it puts a veteran in the locker room that shows players how to play the game right.  That might sound cheesy but young players need strong role models even if those role models aren't great players anymore.

I still think $10m is too much.  My recollection it was the Twins vs. Rangers for his services.  But the way I'm looking at it now, who else is there to play in the OF?  They were running INF's out there last year. 

[jimmer]

I still think $10m is too much.  My recollection it was the Twins vs. Rangers for his services.  But the way I'm looking at it now, who else is there to play in the OF?  They were running INF's out there last year. 

For those who but into WAR, Hunter was worth 1.8M last year, hopefully we get closer to the 2013 version which said he was worth 12M+.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=731&position=OF#value

Edited February 27, 2015 by jimmer

[Seth Stohs]

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

 

This article serves as a perfect opportunity to ask a question I've been wondering about for a few months. So there's a Twins Daily, a Vikings Journal and a Wild Xtra. What about a Wolves Press...name is up for debate of course but you get the idea. The Wolves have such an exciting young core of players and have really been fun to follow since the Love trade. Is there really not enough interest?

 

Hmmm... that IS a very interesting thought... :-)

[Platoon]

Long time lurker, first time poster here.

 

This article serves as a perfect opportunity to ask a question I've been wondering about for a few months. So there's a Twins Daily, a Vikings Journal and a Wild Xtra. What about a Wolves Press...name is up for debate of course but you get the idea. The Wolves have such an exciting young core of players and have really been fun to follow since the Love trade. Is there really not enough interest?

i certainly hope you have already contacted a copyright attorney?? :)

[Kwak]

There are differences between the Garnett and Hunter situations:  1) KG will only play for about two months, Hunter from mid February through September--a whole lot more time to grate on everybody's nerves;  2) KG has a much higher stature in BKB, than Hunter has in BB;  3) BKB has "the 1-1 drills" that BB doesn't, allowing KG to "back-up" his words to others.  Hunter can only start fights;  4) after a crummy Winter, casual fans are more likely to watch a BKB game than BB fans--and there is only two months to watch KG.  The BB season is six months. 

 

But, as stated by many, the Twins need to do something more than preach "help is on the way".  Options were limited.  I don't think for a moment that Hunter had to climb over a bunch of other former all-stars to play for the Twins in 2015.

[Steven Buhr]

I'm not a huge Hunter fan and I wasn't thrilled with the signing (though I also wasn't as vocally opposed as many others), I see it as a little bit of a gamble, but one perhaps worth taking.

 

The early reports out of ST concerning the more social atmosphere in the Twins' clubhouse are encouraging. How much of that is Hunter and how much of it is Ervin Santana and/or Paul Molitor & the new coaching staff? I don't know... I suspect it's a bit of all of them.

 

It's apparent that a pretty stale environment had set in under the prior management team and the existing team "leaders." It's certainly debateable how much this kind of environment change can affect wins and losses, but I do think fans sense when a team is having fun together playing baseball... and when they aren't. That sense can spread to the fanbase.

 

Will Buxton and Sano ever play an inning in the field with Hunter in a regular season game? I don't know. But they are sharing a clubhouse and a field with him now. And even if fans drawn to TF this year to see Hunter don't also get to see Sano or Buxton, many will get their first looks at Arcia, Santana, Meyer, May and others. And by the second half of the season, probably more... maybe even Sano/Buxton.

 

Like Nick, I was surprised by the fan reaction to KG's return. The Twins won't sell SRO tickets for Hunter's encore with the Twins, but they don't need that level of fan interest to make their investment pay off in the long run.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Yeah, I think a lot of people don't understand that leadership and personality is very important in team sports. Obviously guys have to be able to play as well, but there's no question that Garnett and Hunter bring the type of presence, that (hopefully) will bring the best out of others. 

Baseball might be the most individual "team" sport there is.  Garnett can actually play against his teammates in practice, feed them opportunities during games, contribute to the playbook on their behalf, etc.  Hunter is basically just another coach who can observe and comment, which can be helpful but is also incredibly difficult once you start talking about individualized hitting/pitching mechanics that have taken years to develop.  (I think that's why hitting/pitching coach positions are often so tenuous too.)

 

I think the most tangible effects such a player can achieve in baseball are defensive advisor and clubhouse greeter.

[gunnarthor]

Baseball might be the most individual "team" sport there is.  Garnett can actually play against his teammates in practice, feed them opportunities during games, contribute to the playbook on their behalf, etc.  Hunter is basically just another coach who can observe and comment, which can be helpful but is also incredibly difficult once you start talking about individualized hitting/pitching mechanics that have taken years to develop.  (I think that's why hitting/pitching coach positions are often so tenuous too.)

 

I think the most tangible effects such a player can achieve in baseball are defensive advisor and clubhouse greeter.

I think Hunter's best "intangible" facotrs would be making players comfortable so that they can succeed.  He's not going to teach them to hit a slider in the dirt (although maybe he says "if it has a red dot, don't swing") but he might help them learn to deal with failure/life on the road/pressure of ml lifestyle that isn't directly related to coaching.  Look at the yahoo.com article on Rasmus - he has all the talent in the world but something isn't kicking and the author suggested an inability to make adjustments and tuning out his coaches.  Maybe a guy like Hicks needs a guy like Hunter around to just show him how to keep a bad at-bat out of his head or how to prepare for Verlander.  

[birddog]

Some of you have to stop worrying how TR spends the Pohlad fortune and get excited because we got Torii back. No he's not the Torii in his prime, but I still think he's better than any alternative we had in our system both in the field and batter's box. And as this article pointed out, his leadership may turn out to be the biggest contribution. I do think Sano, Vargas and Arcia are the leaders of the future--and they get to learn their leadership skills from one of the best in Torii, just like Torii learned from a great one in Kirby.

 

The Twins finally have a personality again. Twins baseball just seems better when you listen to a Torii interview. Even after a loss he is reassuring to all parties that things will get better and effort will improve, just what young players need to know in a 162-game season.

 

These past 4 seasons have been pathetic. Losing was bad enough, but not having the charismatic Torii or Cuddyer interviews after the game left me thinking  "when will this ever end?" Being a Twins fan these past 4 years was like dating the ugliest girl in school--but she was nice. The Twins are nice guys, but these nice guys have finished last for too long. Torii's leadership, charm and charisma will rub off and make every player--and management--more motivated and accountable.

 

With Torii back in his leadership role, the Twins may not be the "prettiest girl on campus" but the ugly ducklings just got their braces off. They are going to work harder to impress. They get a new wardrobe and they will learn you get to smile because you win, not because you draw a huge salary.

[jmlease1]

I think team chemistry and leadership can have a greater impact in basketball than baseball; one of the most notable things about KG's return was how much better and energetic the Wolves looked on defense, with KG calling out rotations, etc. That's an impact that doesn't show up in individual stats that's still really important. The sum becoming greater than the parts is something that is much more of a basketball thing than baseball, where player interaction and combination is lessened. (how much impact can Torii Hunter have on the infield?)

 

That said, I'm fine with bringing in Torii as well, as long as the expectations aren't out of control. Having an experienced player-mentor for young OFs like Arcia & Hicks isn't a bad thing at all to help them through the daily struggles of being an MLB player. Someone on the field who can help them stay positioned correctly. Someone with credibility to give advice and constructive criticism. Since he should be able to still hit and contribute on the field, it can work. He'll be a marketing plus.

 

In the end, I expect KG to have a greater effect on the on-court product of the Wolves than Torii to have on the Twins, despite Torii possibly having more left in the tank as a player. But the things KG brings to the table are things the Wolves need even more right now and the intangibles are greater in basketball than football. But it doesn't mean bringing in Torii was a bad call, especially since the price was only one year of not-unreasonable money.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I still think $10m is too much.  My recollection it was the Twins vs. Rangers for his services.  But the way I'm looking at it now, who else is there to play in the OF?  They were running INF's out there last year. 

The salary was probably close to "market rate."  MLBTR estimated 2/22 for him.  Alex Rios got 1/11 from KC.

 

I think we would have waited to sign him, though, if on-field production was really the chief concern.  You may not have gotten a better/cheaper player, but I think it was important to at least try to find a more complimentary skill set for our current roster.  Our first priority this offseason definitely should not have been another corner-only, bat-first player.  Someone who could realistically slide over to center if needed, someone who won't need to take DH at-bats (we have perhaps 4 of those guys on the roster already).

[Otto von Ballpark]

I think Hunter's best "intangible" facotrs would be making players comfortable so that they can succeed.  He's not going to teach them to hit a slider in the dirt (although maybe he says "if it has a red dot, don't swing") but he might help them learn to deal with failure/life on the road/pressure of ml lifestyle that isn't directly related to coaching.  Look at the yahoo.com article on Rasmus - he has all the talent in the world but something isn't kicking and the author suggested an inability to make adjustments and tuning out his coaches.  Maybe a guy like Hicks needs a guy like Hunter around to just show him how to keep a bad at-bat out of his head or how to prepare for Verlander.  

I think the Rasmus stuff might be convenient narrative -- do we really know he has "all the talent in the world"?  I think for a lot of guys, failure or even streaks of success and failure are pretty much their full potential.  Not everyone can succeed or sustain success, that's just not the way MLB or life works.  I certainly wouldn't dedicate a lineup spot and $10 mil to enlist an attitude adjuster to try to achieve that ideal.

 

And the examples often cited around Hunter -- Puckett to Hunter, Hunter to Span, Hunter to Trout -- seem pretty mild in this regard.  I am sure the mentored player appreciated it, but none of those guys experienced the wild on-field performance trough/swings of a Hicks or a Rasmus.  In this field, and at this level, that's not something a friendly mentor is really going to make a dent in.  On the field, the overwhelming factors are your own talent and skill, with the possible wildcard of expert level coaching which I wouldn't expect from anyone let alone a fellow active player.

[Otto von Ballpark]

These past 4 seasons have been pathetic. Losing was bad enough, but not having the charismatic Torii or Cuddyer interviews after the game left me thinking  "when will this ever end?"

I am guessing you never had to listen to an interview of Cuddy or Hunter during a last-place season.  Nor did they ever have to give one.  (Well, maybe Hunter as a rookie, or Cuddyer in Colorado -- do you think Rockies fans were placated by Cuddy's post-game musings the past 3 years?)

 

Just like how Souhan said the Twins missed Hunter's presence the past 4 years... conveniently ignoring the previous 3 years when Hunter was gone but we still won and nobody complained much about clubhouse culture and team attitude.

[ashbury]

I think the Rasmus stuff might be convenient narrative -- do we really know he has "all the talent in the world"? 

"All the talent in the world" may be generous, if you think it means the next Mickey Mantle.  The narrative probably comes from being the type of player who finds himself in AAA at age 21 and acquits himself reasonably.   That doesn't happen by accident.   He's many years older than that by now, though not in a usual "decline phase" yet - perhaps some wear and tear has eroded the talent prematurely.   But he OPS'ed .800 as recently as the season before last, so a good working hypothesis is that the ability is still there, and the story on him has always been the mental aspect.

[jimmer]

I am guessing you never had to listen to an interview of Cuddy or Hunter during a last-place season.  Nor did they ever have to give one.  (Well, maybe Hunter as a rookie, or Cuddyer in Colorado -- do you think Rockies fans were placated by Cuddy's post-game musings the past 3 years?)

 

Just like how Souhan said the Twins missed Hunter's presence the past 4 years... conveniently ignoring the previous 3 years when Hunter was gone but we still won and nobody complained much about clubhouse culture and team attitude.

Cuddy had to in 2011 with us :-(

 

In any event, the best thing for good chemistry is winning.  If you're getting pounded all the time for years, that takes it's toll and things aren't going to be all great in the clubhouse or dugout.

[dxpavelka]

Yeah, my biggest worry with Hunter is his age.  At a certain point, players just drop off the cliff.  I'm hoping that doesn't happen to Torii this season but it could.  I think the shift to TF and the shifting that Molitor will do will make his defense liveable if his bat is working.

 

I also agree with kab - Hunter on a one year deal is blocking anyone and no other FA was really exciting alternative.

IF at some point this year he's blocking someone who is not just an alternative but is a BETTER alternative that will be a good thing and will bode well for the future.  Haven't seen that guy yet.  Hope I do, but haven't yet.

[dxpavelka]

And the beast has been poked...

No one has responded to the challenge.

[Otto von Ballpark]

"All the talent in the world" may be generous, if you think it means the next Mickey Mantle.  The narrative probably comes from being the type of player who finds himself in AAA at age 21 and acquits himself reasonably.   That doesn't happen by accident.   He's many years older than that by now, though not in a usual "decline phase" yet - perhaps some wear and tear has eroded the talent prematurely.   But he OPS'ed .800 as recently as the season before last, so a good working hypothesis is that the ability is still there, and the story on him has always been the mental aspect.

No doubt that Rasmus's career started promisingly.

 

But achieving an .800 OPS once or even twice doesn't mean you have the talent to be a perenniel .800 OPS hitter.  Both came with extreme career high BABIPs, and the latter of which came with an almost 30% K rate.  And his history doesn't suggest this is a recent trend.  He wasn't all that great in AAA at age 21 or MLB at age 22, and his K rate explosion at age 23 arguably helped him finally achieve the ISO and BABIP spikes that have kept him in the majors this long.

 

Some guys are just boom and bust.  And some guys just bust.  And Torii Hunter providing a welcoming clubhouse presence isn't going to change that much.

 

I just fear the spate of articles blaming Hicks even more for not listening to Hunter if his performance doesn't turn around this year.