Article: 5th Starter Candidate: Tommy Milone

[USAFChief]

yep, a very smart decision by Beane.

So smart his team went 66-41 before the trade deadline, 22-33 after.

 

22-34 if we include the "crapshoot."

[Twodogs]

The use of "complain" and "demand" are words that carry a connection to attitude and paint the picture of a guy sulking in the AAA clubhouse.

 

Ken Rosenthal has the original report that was repeated by many outlets

 

"Left-hander Tommy Milone has asked the club to trade him, major-league sources tell FOX Sports.

The A’s sent Milone to Triple-A on July 5 after acquiring right-handers Jeff Samardzija and Jason Hammel from the Chicago Cubs. It is not unusual for players to request trades after getting demoted. Milone, though, is more established than most – in 468 2/3 major-league innings, he has a 3.84 ERA."

 

That gives me a different picture. Ask is different from demand. No mention of complain.

 

I don't see attitude in that report. I would hope established players would not easily accept a demotion to AAA.

 

He has an option left. The Twins would be wise to use it if he doesn't earn the fifth starter job. There will be an opportunity if he returns to form in AAA and the Twins are better off keeping him stretched out. I would expect he would work his tail off to get back to the majors either with the Twins or through trade.

 

I would expect him as a Twin to Battle his Tail off too,!!!! for that 5th spot in the rotation.

[nicksaviking]

I understand the decision but when the going rate for quality starts across the board is 50% its kind of harsh to be demoted right after doing it in 9 of your last 11 starts.     I know not everyone sees ERA as a great stat but Milone has a career ERA under 4 in 83 starts and was at 3.55 on the season when demoted.    In the last 4 years the Twins have only had one qualifying pitcher each year under 4 ERA and Hughes finished the year at 3.57 and was our ace.   They have had 10 qualifying pitchers over 5 and mostly well over 5 ERA in that time period.    Milone over 83 starts has an American League ERA under 4.00.    Are you saying his upside is now well over that?    I fully expect the Twins rotation to be better this year but can pretty well guarantee they won't have 5 guys with an ERA under 4.   If I am wrong I will be very happy to be wrong.     I also want May to be that 5th guy but think Milone deserves a little more respect for what he has done and it is only the decrease in mph that make me think his best days might be behind him.    If the surgery gets his fastball back up closer to 90 then there should be no reason to think that.

Milone pitched well extremely pitcher friendly Oakland. A pitcher who throws poorly there is about as rare as a pop foul reaching the seats. Most people, Beane included and likely Ryan as well, see the writing on the wall. His mid 80's fastball is a mirage and it won't stand up, particularly when he's coming from the stadium with the most foul territory and going to one with among the least.

[Dantes929]

Milone pitched well extremely pitcher friendly Oakland. A pitcher who throws poorly there is about as rare as a pop foul reaching the seats. Most people, Beane included and likely Ryan as well, see the writing on the wall. His mid 80's fastball is a mirage and it won't stand up, particularly when he's coming from the stadium with the most foul territory and going to one with among the least.

Yet somehow there were more total runs scored in A's games at the Coliseum than their games on the road.   Is it a conspiracy that somehow when the A;s were batting the foul territory shrunk?  Most pitcher perform better at their home park.   The  Twins rotation as a whole the last 4 years have an ERA that has averaged over what Milone has done just  on the road.   Two runs worse than he has done at home.   It can't all be foul territory and if he was such a soft tosser why are they hitting so many foul balls off him anyway?   His road performance is better than Nolasco's road performance most of which was in the NL and it is better than Santana's road performance and it is better than Gibson's.   How is that explained?.  I already said his mid 80's fastball probably won't play but maybe it will and maybe he truly was injured and can get it back to upper 80's.    Regardless of park he has performed better than the average starter in the majors and as such didn't really deserved a demotion.  That is all I am saying.   I want May or Meyer also but soft tosser or not the 83 games he has started is not really that small a sample size and really he has a better resume than Nolasco, Gibson and Santana...

[Kwak]

So smart his team went 66-41 before the trade deadline, 22-33 after.

 

22-34 if we include the "crapshoot."

Are you suggesting that this collapse was due to demoting Milhone?   Many consider the loss of Cespedes to be the main reason.

[Jham]

"Some wonder whether the huge foul territory at O.co Coliseum helped him out. Balls that are easily foul outs in Oakland might land 15 rows into the seating at Target Field giving the hitter another opportunity to get a hittable pitch."

 

                  Home   ERA/FIP           Road ERA/FIP

 

2012             2.74/3.97                        4.83/4.08

2013             3.44/4.96                        4.19/3.80

2014             4.14/4.44                        4.25/4.94

 

Overall much better numbers at home.  Crazy gaps between ERA and FIP at home in 2012 and 2013.  I think this theory has some merit

Actually, I'd take ANY of his road ERA/FIPs for the Twins 5th starter this season.  I'm sold.  Milone's job to lose.  

[Jham]

The A's were smart enough to consider what he would do for them going forward, not what he did in the past.  The A's had just traded for Samardzjia and Hammel and had no room for Gray, Kazmir, Chavez and Milone.  Milone had by far the lowest upside and was the least likely to succeed going forward.  Seems like an easy call to me. 

 

If the Twins are smart, they'll also put most of their deciding votes on the guys with higher upside.

 

Man, the season hasn't even started, spring training hasn't even started for that matter, and we're already talking developing players?  How about the best player plays.  If we're 20 games back at the All Star break again, then let's give some younger guys a shot.  But I do not think we do anyone any favors by simply handing guys jobs based on "potential" which sometimes means we haven't seen them fail yet.  Actually, Milone is a great example of this.  Pretty much this whole forum loved the trade acquiring Milone last summer and praised TR  for landing a big fish on light tackle, even though it left us with a pretty messed up Center Field situation.  Milone represented "potential" in that we hadn't seen him fail yet.  Maybe he'll fail again, and May or Meyer will step up.  But giving guys jobs that haven't earned them is a bad idea.  It fosters a losing attitude.  It tells the team that the front office doesn't care if it wins or doesn't think they can win.  It tells players that hard work, effort, and skill matter less than age, so why bother trying?  And it tells prospects, eg Aaron Hicks that they don't have to be better than the next guy in line to play which both sets them up for failure and stunts development and work ethic.  

 

Basically, giving the 5th spot to May or Meyer just because their perceived ceilings are higher than other options makes just as little sense as giving the 5th spot to Pelfrey or Milone just because we are paying them more.  

 

Let's break camp with the mentality that we can compete and win.  Necessarily this means we need competitors and winners.  Let's see a fierce competition for the 5th spot, and may the best pitcher win.  Which I suspect is either Milone or May, btw.

[bird]

yep, a very smart decision by Beane.

Brilliant for sure, getting the fearsome Sam Fuld as a return.

[jimmer]

So smart his team went 66-41 before the trade deadline, 22-33 after.

 

22-34 if we include the "crapshoot."

yep, all because they let Milone go. :-)

[USAFChief]

Are you suggesting that this collapse was due to demoting Milhone?   Many consider the loss of Cespedes to be the main reason.

No. Just me being a bit of a wisenheimer.

 

I don't actually see much hope for Milone being an asset in the rotation. He was worth Fuld though.

[jimmer]

Brilliant for sure, getting the fearsome Sam Fuld as a return.

the guy was a complainer there who needed the As defense and huge foul territory to be 'effective'. They didn't need him and they got something for him.

[jimmer]

Are you suggesting that this collapse was due to demoting Milhone?   Many consider the loss of Cespedes to be the main reason.

Beane said he made those trades because he saw the weakness and that the team would be going downhill in the 2nd half and he brought in players to ensure he didn't get out of the playoff picture.  I wonder how bad it would have been if he hadn't done what he did.  Cespedes is a pretty overrated player.  He doesn't get on base and regardless of that one beautiful throw we all know, he's a below average defender.  He's not a difference maker, IMO.

Edited February 14, 2015 by jimmer

[nicksaviking]

Man, the season hasn't even started, spring training hasn't even started for that matter, and we're already talking developing players?  How about the best player plays. 

 

Let's break camp with the mentality that we can compete and win.  Necessarily this means we need competitors and winners.  Let's see a fierce competition for the 5th spot, and may the best pitcher win.  Which I suspect is either Milone or May, btw.

Oh I'm sure they will, just as they misguidedly have the past four years. This team won't be competing until the young guys are ready, and they won't be ready until they start playing. Isn't it better to struggle now in an effort to be better in the future?

 

Youth and upside should weigh more heavily on roster decisions than experience. If Pelfrey is the "best" pitcher this spring and is given the job, how would that help the team in 2016 or beyond?

[Otto von Ballpark]

Actually, I'd take ANY of his road ERA/FIPs for the Twins 5th starter this season. I'm sold. Milone's job to lose.

Milone's road ERAs look like Correia's Twins ERAs. They aren't that great in the current run environment (although if he was 5th by performance, meaning 4 guys were better, that would be nice but wouldn't have much to do with Milone).

[jorgenswest]

the guy was a complainer there who needed the As defense and huge foul territory to be 'effective'. They didn't need him and they got something for him.

Why take a shot at his character? I can't find anything in reports other than a guy who loves baseball, works hard and did not want to get sent down to the minors. Do the Twins want an established player who easily accepts a demotion to the minors?

 

He requested a trade after being sent down with a 3.84 ERA in nearly 500 innings. He had options. Other guys didn't.

 

I hope he and his wife don't look at this stuff. If so, they must be secretly hoping that he can move to a team where the fan base has better character.

[Linus]

Since Milone is so terrible, I'm sure Meyer, May et al will have no problem beating him out, so everyone can relax.

[Boom Boom]

I would guess if Milone was considered as good as his shiny A's ERA would suggest, then Beane could have gotten more for him than Fuld, and other teams would have been willing to trade better outfielders to get him.

[jimmer]

Why take a shot at his character? I can't find anything in reports other than a guy who loves baseball, works hard and did not want to get sent down to the minors. Do the Twins want an established player who easily accepts a demotion to the minors?

 

He requested a trade after being sent down with a 3.84 ERA in nearly 500 innings. He had options. Other guys didn't.

 

I hope he and his wife don't look at this stuff. If so, they must be secretly hoping that he can move to a team where the fan base has better character.

There's nothing wrong with my character, thank you very much.

 

As far as Milone goes, Baseball is a business.  Teams have options.  They are within their rights to use all of those options and players need to accept that. What should Beane have done, not go out and get players clearly better so as not to upset Milone? They had better pitchers for the rotation than him so they optioned him down. Then he COMPLAINED and demanded/requested (depending on what stories you want to believe, I'm guessing you want to believe the requested side) a trade instead of accepting the business side and that he wasn't one of their best five starters. Beane had five SPs better than Milone and didn't think it would be good for Milone to go to the bullpen, so there is only one choice.

 

Milone could have looked forward and seen that starting pitchers would be leaving town this offseason and he'd likely be back in the rotation this year, but instead he did what he did.  Now he's dealing with the same situation on a team with nowhere near the same talent in the rotation as the As had in their rotation when he got demoted.

Edited February 14, 2015 by jimmer

[jimmer]

I would guess if Milone was considered as good as his shiny A's ERA would suggest, then Beane could have gotten more for him than Fuld, and other teams would have been willing to trade better outfielders to get him.

exactly. contenders are always looking for better pitching down the stretch and the best offer Beane apparently got was Fuld from a non-contender.

Edited February 14, 2015 by jimmer

[ashbury]

Why take a shot at his character?...  move to a team where the fan base has better character.

Moderator's note: I infer a sense of satire with that last part, but let's be careful please.

[jorgenswest]

There's nothing wrong with my character, thank you very much.

 

As far as Milone goes, Baseball is a business.  Teams have options.  They are within their rights to use all of those options and players need to accept that. What should Beane have done, not go out and get players clearly better so as not to upset Milone? They had better pitchers for the rotation than him so they optioned him down. Then he COMPLAINED and demanded/requested (depending on what stories you want to believe, I'm guessing you want to believe the requested side) a trade instead of accepting the business side and that he wasn't one of their best five starters. Beane had five SPs better than Milone and didn't think it would be good for Milone to go to the bullpen, so there is only one choice.

 

Milone could have looked forward and seen that starting pitchers would be leaving town this offseason and he'd likely be back in the rotation this year, but instead he did what he did.  Now he's dealing with the same situation on a team with nowhere near the same talent in the rotation as the As had in their rotation when he got demoted.

Simply cite the first hand report characterizing Milone as a complainer. The original Rosenthal report for fox sports and the Gleeman report for hardtalk simply started he asked to be traded.

 

Kurt Suzuki's take on Tommy Milone

 

"First and foremost, the guy is a competitor," Suzuki said after Milone was acquired from Oakland in a trade for outfielder Sam Fuld. "He's not going to light up the radar gun like a lot of these young guys coming up, throwing 97-98 (mph). This kid knows how to pitch. He knows how to get guys out. He proved that in Oakland."

Edited February 14, 2015 by jorgenswest

[Jham]

Since Milone is so terrible, I'm sure Meyer, May et al will have no problem beating him out, so everyone can relax.

This.

[Jham]

Oh I'm sure they will, just as they misguidedly have the past four years. This team won't be competing until the young guys are ready, and they won't be ready until they start playing. Isn't it better to struggle now in an effort to be better in the future?

 

Youth and upside should weigh more heavily on roster decisions than experience. If Pelfrey is the "best" pitcher this spring and is given the job, how would that help the team in 2016 or beyond?

 

That's my point.  The past 4 years have not provided open competitions.  Guys were handed spots they hadn't earned (Hicks, Pelfrey, Guerrier).  

 

If Pelfrey is somehow the best pitcher and wins the spot, he could make the team better both present and future.  I'm sure he'd be a positive influence on any young pitchers that got called up.  He could actually prove to be a tradeable commodity or allow us to move another pitcher for more talent.  We can argue about whether a player would develop faster due to pressure to improve and competition or facing major league hitters, but I think its the latter mentality that ultimately depleted the organizations talent to begin with.  

[h2oface]

Are you suggesting that this collapse was due to demoting Milhone?   Many consider the loss of Cespedes to be the main reason.

Is there a meaning there for this spelling? Does it mean something I am not getting? I figured it was just a mistake the first time I saw it, but since it is repeated, I am curious.

[Major League Ready]

Man, the season hasn't even started, spring training hasn't even started for that matter, and we're already talking developing players? How about the best player plays. If we're 20 games back at the All Star break again, then let's give some younger guys a shot. But I do not think we do anyone any favors by simply handing guys jobs based on "potential" which sometimes means we haven't seen them fail yet.

This team is projected to win 70 games. This team has no shot at a post season appearance. Managing personnel as if you do just retards the rebuilding process. I hope the FO does not burying their heads in the sand and manage our assets in the manner that best promotes rebuilding. We are going to suck so why not focus on development. Personally, if I am going to watch a 70 or 75 win team, I would find it far more entertaining to watch the young guys develop.

 

Meyer showed good potential toward the end of the year and we know Meyer has a front of rotation ceiling. Let's invest in that potential instead of milking an extra win or two out of the season by starting Milone or Pelfrey. I would not be opposed to Milone being the long relief guy. He has managed to get it done over a significant sample size. Put him in the rotation or build trade value if he shows he can sustain the production in a long relief role.

[bird]

I would guess if Milone was considered as good as his shiny A's ERA would suggest, then Beane could have gotten more for him than Fuld, and other teams would have been willing to trade better outfielders to get him.

 

The verdict's in. Billy Beane is an idiot. Terry Ryan is a genius. Cut and dried.

[ashbury]

The verdict's in. Billy Beane is an idiot. Terry Ryan is a genius. Cut and dried.

Moderator's note: I infer a sense of satire here, but let's be careful please.

[laloesch]

I disagree with the consensus here. I think Milone will have to be ultra-impressive this spring, to earn one of the two open slots. I think he gets outshined by May, Pelfrey, Nolasco, and Meyer and goes to Rochester, disgruntled. Wouldn't be all that surprised to see both Nolasco and Milone gone by the trade deadline or before. 

 

That would be my preference.  Twins should make it a point to unload both these guys (Nolasco and Milone) even if the return is low.  Pelfrey should have been gone last season, but we all know Terry Ryan LOVES dumpster diving & reclamation projects.  

 

Opening up rotation spots for May and Meyer should be a top priority for the Twins FO.  I'm willing to wait until mid season, but they had better stop procrastinating with these two as both are mid 20's now.  

Edited February 16, 2015 by laloesch