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The Hall of Fame Ballot / big Hall-small Hall / Hall is broken-unbroken / WAR stinks-doesn't stink / BBWAA stinks-doesn't stink thread

Willihammer

By Willihammer
in Other Baseball

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Kirby_waved_at_me First Round Pick

Kirby_waved_at_me

Provisional Member
Posted
Posted

Too many deserving candidates this year! Hope none of the following are dropped from the ballot, they'd be my top 10 of the names on the list.

 

Bonds, Clemens, Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, Mike Piazza, Curt Schilling, Tim Raines, Craig Biggio, Jeff Bagwell, and Mike Mussina.

 

 

 

If not limited to ten, I'd add Trammell, Edgar Martinez, Larry Walker, John Smoltz, Gary Sheffield.

 

If I'm being generous, McGriff, Sosa, and Jeff Kent can come along too.

 

There are 22 guys on the list that are "likely" HOFers based on the Bill James HOF monitor. Ridiculous!

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ashbury Cooperstown

ashbury

Old-Timey Member
Posted
Posted

Bonds, Clemens,

I posted the link to the HoF rules, in part because the voters are empowered to consider non-statistical criteria as well.  Sportsmanship, character and integrity are specifically mentioned.  I think these two candidates in particular are going to be blackballed for the foreseeable future.

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gunnarthor All-Star

gunnarthor

Old-Timey Member
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I think McGriff gets too little love.  If you think the PED guys should get dinged, shouldn't McGriff get a positive ding?  His run from 88-94 gets a little lost in the steroid era - he led the league twice in HR with 35 and 36.  134 OPS+ in over 10,000 PA is really good, regardless of position.  

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nicksaviking All-Star

nicksaviking

Community Moderator
Posted
Posted

I posted the link to the HoF rules, in part because the voters are empowered to consider non-statistical criteria as well.  Sportsmanship, character and integrity are specifically mentioned.  I think these two candidates in particular are going to be blackballed for the foreseeable future.

 

From the looks of it, they have a lot of company.

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Willihammer Cedar Rapids Kernels

Willihammer

Provisional Member
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Johnson, Schilling, Edgar, Smoltz, Mussina, Trammell, McGriff, Walker, Biggio, Everyday Eddie .... man, you run out of ten spots pretty quick.  

Its funny. To even get on the ballot you have to be nominated by TWO of the 6 members of the BBWAA Screening Committee.

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Seth Stohs GOAT

Seth Stohs

Owner
Posted
Posted

I agree. A site vote would be fun.

 

For me, Bonds, Clemens, P Martinez, R Johnson, Biggio, Piazza, Raines, McGwire, Smoltz, Mussina...

 

With a wish that I could also vote for several others including: McGriff, Sosa, Schilling, Kent... and Palmiero, even though he's not on the ballot.

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James GCL Twins

James

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There are a lot good candidates this year.  I'd honestly have to look at the stats a lot more to figure out which 10 I'd vote for this year.  

 

I think R. Johnson, P. Martinez,  Biggio, Piazza, Bagwell... I'd have to do some serious thinking about anyone else.

 

I can't, and wouldn't in good conscience vote for Clemens or Bonds.  I know that there were others that also got caught up in the PED issue, but these were some of the most obvious and least repentant.  I just couldn't bring myself to do it.

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Willihammer Cedar Rapids Kernels

Willihammer

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Before I add my own ballot, I'll touch on PEDs. I've flip flopped on the topic a few times, but right now I'm on the anti-PED side. For starters, these players cheated. The substances they took were banned. I know there are cheaters in the Hall already, I don't care. The Hall doesn't have to be perfectly consistent, I certainly wouldn't ask that it be consistent about honoring cheaters. Secondly, one of the Hall's missions is to honor in-game excellence. If I had a vote, I wouldn't be able to judge a suspected cheater's level of excellence to be greater than a non-suspect with any confidence because its impossible to normalize for the effect of PED usage.

 

For writers in the anti-PED camp, I imagine the hard part becomes figuring out who are the most likely PED users. Fortunately the Mitchell report did a lot of the investigating for them. The names in that report include the guys found to be most connected to BALCO and who would seem to be among the most likely PED users. And of course, some of those guys ended up confessing. The players on the 2015 ballot who also showed up on the Mitchell report are:

 

Bonds

Clemens

Sheffield

 

We also have various leaks through the years from lawyers and people privvy to drug testing results dating back to 2003. The most famous leak probably being the ARod leak for which he served his 162 game suspension. Sosa is implicated in a similar leak. (So is McGwire, but he confessed anyway).

 

That brings the tally of PED-linked names to:

 

Bonds

Clemens

McGwire

Sheffield

Sosa

 

Am I missing anyone?

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Kirby_waved_at_me First Round Pick

Kirby_waved_at_me

Provisional Member
Posted
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Before I add my own ballot, I'll touch on PEDs. I've flip flopped on the topic a few times, but right now I'm on the anti-PED side. For starters, these players cheated. The substances they took were banned. I know there are cheaters in the Hall already, I don't care. The Hall doesn't have to be perfectly consistent, I certainly wouldn't ask that it be consistent about rewarding cheaters. Secondly, one of the Hall's missions is to reward in-game excellence. If I had a vote, I wouldn't be able to judge a suspected cheater's level of excellence to be greater than a non-suspect with any confidence because its impossible to normalize for the effect of PED usage.

 

For writers in the anti-PED camp, I imagine the hard part becomes figuring out who are the most likely PED users. Fortunately the Mitchell report did a lot of the investigating for them. The names in that report include the guys found to be most connected to BALCO and who would seem to be among the most likely PED users. And of course, some of those guys ended up confessing. The players on the 2015 ballot who also showed up on the Mitchell report are:

 

Bonds

Clemens

Sheffield

 

We also have various leaks through the years from lawyers and people privvy to drug testing results dating back to 2003. The most famous leak probably being the ARod leak for which he served his 162 game suspension. Sosa is implicated in a similar leak. (So is McGwire, but he confessed anyway).

 

That brings the tally of PED-linked names to:

 

Bonds

Clemens

McGwire

Sheffield

Sosa

 

Am I missing anyone?

 

Those are the guys Confirmed, Admitted, Failed a publicly released test.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_named_in_the_Mitchell_Report

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_suspended_for_performance-enhancing_drugs

 

 

 

 

 

Tim Raines was part of the Cocaine scandal in the 80s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_scandals#1985_cocaine_scandal

 

 

Rumors have flown about Bagwell, Biggio, Piazza, Brian Giles, and Carlos Delgado, but there was little to no evidence presented.

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nicksaviking All-Star

nicksaviking

Community Moderator
Posted
Posted

I feel bad for guys who didn't use and played during the steriod era and are thus tainted by their peers.  Still, they still reaped the financial rewards that the era brought and nothing but pride and fear of ostricization stopped them from being a whistleblower, pushing the players union to agree to testing/punishment or publicly disclosing that they think cheaters should be run out of the game. 

 

That last option would have been a pretty simple act and would have looked good on anyone's resume, it certianly helped Frank Thomas' perception and likely the voting results. 

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biggentleben GCL Twins

biggentleben

Verified Member
Posted
Posted

So here's the entire ballot.  Those who have already replied, please let me know your official ballot, and I'll start tallying on a nice spreadsheet.  Voting will be open through January 5th.  Current voting rules apply, so a player must achieve 75% for Twins Daily induction:

 

Rich Aurilia
Jeff Bagwell
Craig Biggio

Barry Bonds
Aaron Boone
Tony Clark
Roger Clemens
Carlos Delgado
Jermaine Dye
Darin Erstad
Cliff Floyd
Nomar Garciaparra
Brian Giles
Tom Gordon
Eddie Guardado
Randy Johnson
Jeff Kent
Edgar Martinez
Pedro Martinez
Don Mattingly
Fred McGriff
Mark McGwire
Mike Mussina
Troy Percival

Mike Piazza
Tim Raines
Curt Schilling
Jason Schmidt
Gary Sheffield
Lee Smith
John Smoltz
Sammy Sosa
Alan Trammell
Larry Walker

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Willihammer Cedar Rapids Kernels

Willihammer

Provisional Member
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Those are the guys Confirmed, Admitted, Failed a publicly released test.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_named_in_the_Mitchell_Report

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_players_suspended_for_performance-enhancing_drugs

 

 

 

 

 

Tim Raines was part of the Cocaine scandal in the 80s.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_League_Baseball_scandals#1985_cocaine_scandal

 

 

Rumors have flown about Bagwell, Biggio, Piazza, Brian Giles, and Carlos Delgado, but there was little to no evidence presented.

Yeah, this is why I can sympathize with the BBWAA voters. As soon as you try to determine who was clean and who wasn't, you are probably going to get a few wrong. I do think its worthwhile for them to gather all the available facts and make a judgment based on some threshold of evidence. As opposed to throwing up your hands and saying "we can't know for sure so the PED issue shouldn't factor at all."

 

My ballot would look like:

 

Johnson

Mussina

Bagwell

E. Martinez

Schilling

Piazza

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Willihammer Cedar Rapids Kernels

Willihammer

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People not voting for Raines, can you offer any good reason not to vote for him? Seriously, go look at his career numbers and get back to me......

Are they that good? He drew a ton of walks and has a batting title to his credit but 170 home runs from a left fielder? His ISO is the same as Alan Trammell's. Only, Raines' defense was about 30 wins worse, according to dWAR anyway.

 

He had a great career and if there were a Hall of Very Good he'd be a shoe in, but he wasn't elite IMO.

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Mike Sixel Cooperstown

Mike Sixel

Old-Timey Member
Posted
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Did you look at stolen bases, or just ignore that? HR, what is the obsession with HR exactly?

 

His numbers are excellent, excellent. 

 

Top 20 in WAR for his era......ahead of Biggio, Gwynn, Piazza, Boggs, and lots of other players. He's hurt by his LF defense, for sure. but yes, he's a HoF player.

 

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/12/05/the-hall-of-fame-case-for-tim-raines/

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