Article: Torii Hunter is Returning to the Twins

[TheLeviathan]

Psuedo, I think you are right that there is a genuine hope on his part that he can instill an attitude in the young guys to help turn the franchise around.  I think the team and Paul Molitor believe that too.

 

Where you lose me is putting him on some kind of leadership pedestal that I don't think he belongs.  This guy has a big personality, largely because of his huge ego and self-serving (often ignorant and misguided) ideas.  Torii doesn't bring "professionalism", if you want that we had it with Josh Willingham and even with Joe Mauer.

 

You want an "attitude"?  Alright, maybe.  But I can't help but think a guy whose attitude is embodied by punching a futility infielder to send a message isn't the right kind of attitude.  

[Mike Sixel]

Look, I'm trying hard not to post about his beliefs, and the hypocrisy of his statements about very bad behavior that he finds acceptable.......but if we really want to talk about what a great guy he is, I'm sorely tempted to offer pages of links about what a great guy he isn't......

 

If Hunter thinks it is more likely he'll win in MN than in TX, are we supposed to admire his baseball IQ? Do people really think that MN will be better than TX next year?

[USAFChief]

Psuedo, I think you are right that there is a genuine hope on his part that he can instill an attitude in the young guys to help turn the franchise around.  I think the team and Paul Molitor believe that too.

 

Where you lose me is putting him on some kind of leadership pedestal that I don't think he belongs.  This guy has a big personality, largely because of his huge ego and self-serving (often ignorant and misguided) ideas.  Torii doesn't bring "professionalism", if you want that we had it with Josh Willingham and even with Joe Mauer.

 

You want an "attitude"?  Alright, maybe.  But I can't help but think a guy whose attitude is embodied by punching a futility infielder to send a message isn't the right kind of attitude.

 

I think maybe the brass views Hunter as someone who can demonstrate the necessity to play hard every day, to play through minor injuries, who doesn't accept losing gracefully or casually. This is a profession and there are others out there trying to take wins away from you, and they will do just that if you let them.

 

Whether Hunter has enough in the tank to demonstrate those things is questionable. But I absolutely agree with them that those things have value, the Twins have been sorely lacking in them, and current veterans (coughMauercough) don't provide them.

 

Talent is the biggest Twins problem, we all get that. But it's not the only quality lacking.

[twinsnorth49]

I think we'll need to give Mike Trout a "shiv to the liver" then. I keep hearing from him how much he missed Hunter.

Seems to have got along just fine without him though.

[PseudoSABR]

This guy has a big personality, largely because of his huge ego and self-serving (often ignorant and misguided) ideas.  Torii doesn't bring "professionalism", if you want that we had it with Josh Willingham and even with Joe Mauer.

 

  

 

I'm not sure where you are really getting this.  He's media darling, a spotlight whore, but I can't extrapolate his behavior in front of camera to an assessment of his leadership/mentorship ability or his contribution to a positive culture at the workplace.  

 

Again, I'm not sure leadership is the right word; but that fieriness that led Hunter to swing at Morneau (another fiery personality) certainly is something the clubhouse had missed; that kind of player-on-player accountability, even if wrongheaded, matters.  Professionalism isn't the issue; there's plenty of lead-by-example guys.  I just think a guy like Hicks, and other young guys, might benefit from Hunter's attitude, even if Hunter may not pick all the right fights or present the most sound ideas.  

[tobi0040]

Talent is the biggest Twins problem, we all get that. But it's not the only quality lacking.

 

It is hard for me to list the problems and have effort or losing culure in the top five.  I certainly don't have it anywhere near as high on my list as OF defense. 

[Mike Sixel]

I'm not sure where you are really getting this.  He's media darling, a spotlight whore, but I can't extrapolate his behavior in front of camera to an assessment of his leadership/mentorship ability or his contribution to a positive culture at the workplace.  

 

Again, I'm not sure leadership is the right word; but that fieriness that led Hunter to swing at Morneau (another fiery personality) certainly is something the clubhouse had missed; that kind of player-on-player accountability, even if wrongheaded, matters.  Professionalism isn't the issue; there's plenty of lead-by-example guys.  I just think a guy like Hicks, and other young guys, might benefit from Hunter's attitude, even if Hunter may not pick all the right fights or present the most sound ideas.  

 

I agree they are lacking fieriness. 

[KGB]

Seems to have got along just fine without him though.

 

That what a good mentor does. Trouts the one calling him a mentor, if he says it, I don't know why we don't believe him. 

[ashbury]

count me in the camp who believes Torii's mystical leadership traits are pure hyperbole, he's a complete egotist.

 

"I've been calling him, wishing him the best of luck," Trout said on a conference call Monday, shortly after being named the unanimous winner of the American League's [2012] Rookie of the Year Award. "It doesn't look like he's coming back. I've been just thanking him. Even if he plays for another team, I'm sure I'll still be able to call him and keep this friendship going. He's just an incredible guy."

http://i.ytimg.com/vi/cbWs1oakDME/hqdefault.jpg

 

"One of these things is not like the other one..."

[Linus]

The really frustrating thing is Rasmus is still available and probably signs about the same deal.

 

11 years younger. Can play all 3 positions, which could be valuable as you want hicks on the corner if he turns it around (not our long term cf) Or flexibility if Rosario or buxton light it up.

 

Probably the same stick with much better defense. And you get a pick next year when he leaves.

The only way I like this deal is if we find out later that the Twins called Colby Rasmus and he said "no thanks" or let's talk a multi - year contract.

 

Other random thoughts: please don't listen to Torii when he says he had to "come home".  What this means is that Texas, et al. offered him $5 million and TR had to double it to get him to come here.  We were all waiting for when the Twins would overpay to seal the deal on a free agent - just never thought it would be Torii.

 

I'm also not buying the clubhouse leader stuff.  Basically like the baseball equivalent of "she's got a nice personality:"

 

Will really dislike this deal if they move Arcia - he needs to stay put and see if he can learn to play where his future lies. 

 

Having pointed out all the negatives, I do have to admit that if you consider the whole package, he was better last year than anybody we trotted out there.  Faint praise but it will be an improvment.

[Otto von Ballpark]

That what a good mentor does. Trouts the one calling him a mentor, if he says it, I don't know why we don't believe him.

Most ballplayers are pretty complimentary to teammates in the media. Without more detail, I am not sure I want to read that much more than that into these comments about Hunter. For all we know, Torii recommended him a good barber in SoCal, or helped him set up a Roth IRA.

[ashbury]

I'm also not buying the clubhouse leader stuff.  Basically like the baseball equivalent of "she's got a nice personality:"

Since that point of view amounts to valuing looks over personal attributes, and is considered shallow (at least when I do it ), I'm not sure this analogy goes in the direction you hoped.

[ashbury]

this is true.....especially the spouse golf thing, sigh.....

I taught my wife-to-be how to drive a manual transmission.  If the relationship could survive that, I figured, she was probably a keeper.

[KGB]

Most ballplayers are pretty complimentary to teammates in the media. Without more detail, I am not sure I want to read that much more than that into these comments about Hunter. For all we know, Torii recommended him a good barber in SoCal, or helped him set up a Roth IRA.

Mike Trout on Hunter from the article:

 

Then there's his off-field leadership, which is impossible to measure and isn't given much weight in a game so driven by the numbers and the tangible.

Not to Trout, though.

"He's impacted my whole career so far," Trout said. "Coming up, he kind of took me under his wing and showed me the ropes. He was always there for me, on and off the field. Any questions I would have, he would answer. He was the right guy to go to.

"He's been in the league for that long, a veteran guy, he really took it upon himself to lead me the right way, and I can't thank him enough."

 

If the best player in baseball feels he impacted his career, I guess we can choose to believe it or not.

[Twins Twerp]

Seems to have got along just fine without him though.

Why do people think that because Trout did better without Hunter, Hunter is not a good leader or mentor? How many mentors follow people around their whole life?  I suppose Tony Dungy isn't a great mentor because Jim Caldwell won more games once Tony retired?  Same dumb logic being used in the arguments above.  Trout did better as a 21 year old than a 20 year old.  I would equate that to growing (physically) and coming more into his prime years.  

 

I do not get the hate for Hunter as a leader?  Some of the fallacies that have been thrown around are absolutely comical.  Sure he isn't the best OF in the market, but it does make sense.  We need a vet OF bat.  The youngness won't be up for at least most of the season.  The year, again, will be a wash and the chances of competing are slim.  I am sick of rebuilding seasons as well, but the end is near depending upon the SP signing(s) this offseason.   

[Riverbrian]

I've never seen Torii Hunter deal with puppies or old people... I don't know if he's a jerk or not.

 

I won't judge him based on media quotes... Just like I try not to judge any of you based on your quotes on TD. What you post on TD has very little to do with what kind of Accountant... Teacher... Mailman... you are.

 

My judgement will be based on how he plays the game.

 

If I see him layup on a catchable ball... Jog to first on a grounder... Go through the motions... I'll judge him on that and that alone.

[sthpstm]

I'm here to discuss baseball, not his views or opinions.  

I love the move for the offense.  I think sitting back and saying that the offense did well last year so it will again, is folly.  A RH OF is exactly what we need, and I think Hunter is likely the best viable option.  I don't understand all the Rasmus over Hunter talk.  

Defensively, well, we can hope that returning to his roots and being made a mentor to the younger players might renew his high effort.  I'll be interested to see what Butch Davis can do with our OF.

 

On a side note, does anyone else get the feeling that a trade is coming?  I can't help but think we might be moving a young OF named Arcia.

[tobi0040]

 

I don't understand all the Rasmus over Hunter talk. quote

 

Rasmus has a career OPS of .751, in the range of Hunter's last year of .765. He is 28 and unquestionably a better defender and provides us flexibility (can play CF or in a corner). With the Hunter signing, our CF next year will be Hicks or Schafer. That could be a disaster three years running. He could provide value beyond this year as well. Either with us or with us receiving a pick if he leaves.

Edited December 3, 2014 by tobi0040

[Otto von Ballpark]

If the best player in baseball feels he impacted his career, I guess we can choose to believe it or not.

It's not a matter of disbelief -- it's that these kinds of statements are very common in pro sports.  I am not sure they are particularly meaningful in the context of "mentorship" being a top priority for player acquisition.

 

Hey, look -- Mike Trout likes Vernon Wells too!

 

http://halohangout.com/2011/06/21/tuesday-twitter-stalking-mike-trout-and-vernon-wells-are-tweet-buddies/

 

(Wells is a free agent too, by the way!)

[sthpstm]

 

I don't understand all the Rasmus over Hunter talk. quote

 

Rasmus has a career OPS of .751, in the range of Hunter's last year of .765. He is 28 and unquestionably a better defender and provides us flexibility (can play CF or in a corner). With the Hunter signing, our CF next year will be Hicks or Schafer. That could be a disaster three years running. He could provide value beyond this year as well. Either with us or with us receiving a pick if he leaves.

Do I need to point out how ludicrous to pick out a single year of statistics  for one player and the career statistics for another?

In choosing Hunter, I expect that his decline in statistics will level out or perhaps even increase from last year.  Rasmus has had more < or = mediocre seasons that great seasons.  You believe that he has a great year or years in him.  I don't believe he does.

You also assume he would come here. I wouldn't assume it.  What we do know is Torii will and Torii is.

Regardless, don't cherry pick stats.

[tobi0040]

Do I need to point out how ludicrous to pick out a single year of statistics  for one player and the career statistics for another?

In choosing Hunter, I expect that his decline in statistics will level out or perhaps even increase from last year.  Rasmus has had more < or = mediocre seasons that great seasons.  You believe that he has a great year or years in him.  I don't believe he does.

You also assume he would come here. I wouldn't assume it.  What we do know is Torii will and Torii is.

Regardless, don't cherry pick stats.

 

I would not compare the career stats of a guy that is 40 years old with any sort of expectation that he will achieve them.  History has not been kind to 40 year olds.

 

I will be very generous here and take Torii's age 35-38 numbers, OPS of .765, .817, .800, and .765.  That is not much better offensively than the career numbers Rasmus has put up (.751) and Rasmus has done so ages 22-27.  Even if you think Torii Hunter will put up better offensive numbers this year than Rasmus ( I don't think that is anywhere near a given).....but certainly a few other things draw fans towards Rasmus.

 

Defense, he had a positive dWAR at CF last year. I am guessing that means he would play any of the 3 OF positions better than the guy rated as the worst RF in baseball.  That flexibility could mean he spells Hicks if he continues to struggle.

 

And of course Rasmus offers the potential for a long term solution and/or gets us something when he leaves.  Torii does not.  I have no clue if Rasmus would come here or not, if we reached out, etc.  But I can see why fans would rather have him than Hunter.

Edited December 3, 2014 by tobi0040

[TheLeviathan]

I'm not sure where you are really getting this.  He's media darling, a spotlight whore, but I can't extrapolate his behavior in front of camera to an assessment of his leadership/mentorship ability or his contribution to a positive culture at the workplace.  

 

 

Other posters in this thread have said that he "will teach them how to be a pro" and other such sentiments.  You want a guy with a fiery personality?  Fine, say that.  But if you look through the first few pages of this thread the word "leadership" and "mentor" and "being a pro" are what was thrown around, not having a fiery attitude.  

 

If you want to commend this for bringing some attitude to the team (something I've been a champion of too) that's fine.  I can't take issue with that.  But we have plenty of evidence in his actions and words that demonstrate the terms above (like "leader" and "mentor") are probably at best overblown and at worst completely ridiculous.

[tobi0040]

Other posters in this thread have said that he "will teach them how to be a pro" and other such sentiments.  You want a guy with a fiery personality?  Fine, say that.  But if you look through the first few pages of this thread the word "leadership" and "mentor" and "being a pro" are what was thrown around, not having a fiery attitude.  

 

If you want to commend this for bringing some attitude to the team (something I've been a champion of too) that's fine.  I can't take issue with that.  But we have plenty of evidence in his actions and words that demonstrate the terms above (like "leader" and "mentor") are probably at best overblown and at worst completely ridiculous.

 

Like calling Mike Beradino a prick at his press conference....a few minutes ago.

Edited December 3, 2014 by tobi0040

[Mike Sixel]

Like calling Mike Beradino a prick at his press conference....a few minutes ago.

 

Jokingly, or seriously? Either way, not professional.....if the new fieriness is about being a jerk to the media, yuck.

[Pius Jefferson]

Bernadino needs to stick to baseball related questions and leave out politics. 

[Mike Sixel]

Bernadino needs to stick to baseball related questions and leave out politics. 

 

But Torii gets to make political statements and make advertisements in support of politicians based on those beliefs? That's the price you pay, if you speak up, you get asked about it. Either way, completely unprofessional to call someone a prick. Good start, Torii.

Edited December 3, 2014 by mike wants wins

[JB_Iowa]

I think Torii's reaction to Berardino is a reflection on just how soft the TC media has been.  

[Mike Sixel]

I think Torii's reaction to Berardino is a reflection on just how soft the TC media has been.  

 

Agreed. Did anyone ask TR about the defense/non-strikeout pitching staff yet? I didn't get to hear it, as I was in the dentist chair.

 

The media here is largely a PR machine for the teams (though, in fairness, that's probably true in most cities).

[Ben B]

Regardless of your views on the subject or what you think of the signing (I dislike it), Torii calling him a prick in what was supposed to be a feel-good introductory press conference was immensely stupid. 

[Halsey Hall]

Berardino  never should have asked that question.  I'd of called him a prick too.  I didn't hear him call him that, but heard the question and the answer.