Article: REPORT: Neil Allen to be Hired as Pitching Coach

[Seth Stohs]

The Star Tribune is reporting that the Minnesota Twins will select Neil Allen as their next pitching coach.

 

Last week, we learned that the Twins search for a pitching coach had narrowed to just two: Carl Willis and Neil Allen.

 

On Saturday night, the Star Tribune beat writers reported that the team had selected Neil Allen as Paul Molitor's pitching coach.The 56-year-old Allen played for five big league teams from 1979 to 1989. He went a combined 58-70 with 75 saves in the big leagues.

 

Following his career, he quickly became a pitching coach in independent leagues. He coached in the Blue Jays system starting in 1996. In 2000, he moved to the Yankees where he was a pitching coach through 2006, with the exception of 2005, when he was the big league bullpen coach with the Yankees.

 

Since 2007, he has been a pitching coach with the Rays AAA team where he has worked with many of the young hurlers who proved ready for the Rays.

 

Though he has never been a big league pitching coach, he has been a coach for over two decades. Many thought that the Twins would select a pitching coach with big league experience, though it certainly wasn't necessary.

 

One thing many fans were looking for was an outside voice, someone from outside the organization. Allen has no association with the Twins, and really little interaction with Molitor. Gene Glynn was a scout for several seasons with the Rays, so maybe that's a connection?

 

Molitor's coaching staff is nearly complete. Tom Brunansky was quickly named the hitting coach. Soon after, they announced that Gene Glynn (3B coach) and Rudy Hernandez (assistant hitting coach) were named. Last week, a report surfaced that Eddie Guardado would be named the bullpen coach, though at this time that has not been confirmed.

 

With the reported addition of Allen as pitching coach, the open coaching spots appear to be bench coach and first base coach.

 

What are your thoughts?

 

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[Brock Beauchamp]

While I know very little about the coaching style of either Willis or Allen, I was leaning toward Allen because he's in the Rays organization and I respect that org from top to bottom. An intriguing choice. Is it the right choice?

 

Time will tell.

 

Or maybe it won't because grading coaches is real hard.

[Winston Smith]

Dave Martinez is likely available for bench coach keeping with the Rays theme.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

While I know very little about the coaching style of either Willis or Allen, I was leaning toward Allen because he's in the Rays organization and I respect that org from top to bottom. An intriguing choice. Is it the right choice?

 

Time will tell.

 

Or maybe it won't because grading coaches is real hard.

I'm on board with this take. Time will tell.

 

The Twins obsession with "pitch to contact" is just kind of a head scratcher though. As long as we're not turning May and Meyer and other strikeout guys into something they are not, we should be fine. The base hits on 0-2 counts get a little irritating!

[Seth Stohs]

I don't think anyone is coaching people to give up 0-2 hits..

 

Throwing strikes is the most important thing a pitcher can do. I'll never disagree with that. Strikeouts are great, but big league hitters are good. 

[TheLeviathan]

I don't think anyone is coaching people to give up 0-2 hits..

 

Throwing strikes is the most important thing a pitcher can do. I'll never disagree with that. Strikeouts are great, but big league hitters are good. 

 

The key to changing the Twins mentality isn't to stop pounding the zone - Anderson was spot on with that strategy.  But at some point you have to recognize that the best pitchers pound the zone and finish hitters themselves.  We built rotations, targeted arms, and pushed players to become only half of that equation.  I don't know where it went off course but hopefully a change sets it back on track again.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The reporters also might have cherry-picked that quotation for effect, and if they did, I sure stepped in it.

 

But, the Twins pitching philosophy has been "attack the strike zone" meanwhile, the hitting philosophy has been "make 'em throw strikes." By now I hope the Twins can see the dissonance in those philosophies and are making some fundamental changes.

[TheLeviathan]

The reporters also might have cherry-picked that quotation for effect, and if they did, I sure stepped in it.

 

But, the Twins pitching philosophy has been "attack the strike zone" meanwhile, the hitting philosophy has been "make 'em throw strikes." By now I hope the Twins can see the dissonance in those philosophies and are making some fundamental changes.

 

I don't think there is a dissonance.  As pitchers you want to be ahead in the count and not walking people and as hitters you want to avoid swinging at pitches out of the zone.

 

The problem is that the Twins' pitching philosophy became too overzealous and there wasn't enough "good" strikes and guys able to miss bats in the zone.  "Pitch to contact" was all about enabling weak contact and staying ahead of hitters, something all great pitchers do.  We just started to believe any old schmuck could accomplish that if they had "good control".

[Steven Buhr]

There's nothing wrong with pounding the zone, but ever pitcher needs a reliable out pitch - something he can throw to miss a bat when it matters. The Twins pitchers have largely lacked that for years.

 

I know it's not because their minor league coaches and managers don't believe it's important. I've heard enough of them talk about how important that is.

 

I guess I'm hoping Allen and Guardado can somehow help the current and future Twins pitchers to develop that kind of pitch.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Dave Martinez is likely available for bench coach keeping with the Rays theme.

That is weird, what is going on in Tampa...

[jokin]

The reporters also might have cherry-picked that quotation for effect, and if they did, I sure stepped in it.

 

But, the Twins pitching philosophy has been "attack the strike zone" meanwhile, the hitting philosophy has been "make 'em throw strikes." By now I hope the Twins can see the dissonance in those philosophies and are making some fundamental changes.

 

This was his foundational philosophy at AAA.  Phil Hughes and Trevor May will likely be on board with this (Good thing Kevin Correia isn't around any more):

 

 

 

What is your pitching philosophy?

I attack the zone. I'm not a guy who picks and feels my way. I'm not afraid of contact. I don't want them to be afraid of contact. I want them to put the ball in play. I don't like base on balls. I want them to command both sides of the plate with their fastball. If they can command both sides of the plate with their fastball, then the other stuff will come along, the changeup and curveball. That will come along during the course of the season. I've got to get them out of the gate to believe in their fastball to both sides of the plate. Attack the zone. Don't be afraid of contact.

Edited November 23, 2014 by jokin

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

I don't think there is a dissonance.  As pitchers you want to be ahead in the count and not walking people and as hitters you want to avoid swinging at pitches out of the zone.

 

The problem is that the Twins' pitching philosophy became too overzealous and there wasn't enough "good" strikes and guys able to miss bats in the zone.  "Pitch to contact" was all about enabling weak contact and staying ahead of hitters, something all great pitchers do.  We just started to believe any old schmuck could accomplish that if they had "good control".

Broadly speaking, that is true. Pitchers need to work ahead and hitters need to work a good count. (In Mauer's case, a good count is sometimes 0-2). But on the individual level the broad stroke philosophy starts to break down. Alex Meyer, for example. If the Twins plan to keep him in AAA until he can pinpoint all his pitches, then I might call that an organizational failure (based on what I've read about him from others). The new coaches get the benefit of the doubt since obviously it's not a job any of us could do.

[Steven Buhr]

Dave Martinez is likely available for bench coach keeping with the Rays theme.

Not to go off topic, but last I knew, the Cubs have a bench coach opening. I suspect Martinez is more likely to end up there than in Minnesota.

 

I'm still wrapping my head around the Neil Allen hire. I find it kind of fascinating that Molitor and the Twins have hired a guy that their new manager has no history with at all. That just seems... odd (but not necessarily in a bad way).

 

I honestly expected a pitching coach hire from outside the Twins immediate organization, but with some kind of historical relationship with Molitor. I'm very curious to see how this turns out.

[Steven Buhr]

Mike Berardino now Tweeting that source close to Allen insist he has not yet been told he will be the new Twins pitching coach.

 

You just kind of have to laugh, don't you?

 

This is SO "Twins Way."

 

I don't know if the Strib just found out Willis had been told he didn't get the gig so they assume Allen did (not an unreasonable assumption, I suppose, but it's dangerous to make any assumption when you're dealing with the Twins FO) or if Allen was told by the Twins that if he leaked the decision before the Twins announced it, they would pull their offer. With as super-secret as the Twins are with everything they do, I could honestly see that being the case.

 

It's all just kind of amusing.

[TheLeviathan]

Broadly speaking, that is true. Pitchers need to work ahead and hitters need to work a good count. (In Mauer's case, a good count is sometimes 0-2). But on the individual level the broad stroke philosophy starts to break down. Alex Meyer, for example. If the Twins plan to keep him in AAA until he can pinpoint all his pitches, then I might call that an organizational failure (based on what I've read about him from others). The new coaches get the benefit of the doubt since obviously it's not a job any of us could do.

 

I agree and that's why Anderson had to go.  Somewhere along the way a sound philosophy became an offtrack dogma.

[jorgenswest]

Allen has no ties to the organization. The only thing that could have set him apart is the Twins perception of his skill in coaching pitchers. Encouraging.

[jokin]

Mike Berardino now Tweeting that source close to Allen insist he has not yet been told he will be the new Twins pitching coach.

 

You just kind of have to laugh, don't you?

 

This is SO "Twins Way."

 

I don't know if the Strib just found out Willis had been told he didn't get the gig so they assume Allen did (not an unreasonable assumption, I suppose, but it's dangerous to make any assumption when you're dealing with the Twins FO) or if Allen was told by the Twins that if he leaked the decision before the Twins announced it, they would pull their offer. With as super-secret as the Twins are with everything they do, I could honestly see that being the case.

 

It's all just kind of amusing.

 

I dunno,  Willis was Berardino's revealed guy.... it was LaVelle who was the one who broke the news that Allen was suddenly in the running.  Sounds like it possibly could be that Allen's agent was a little chatty? ***

 

***(or someone close to Glynn?? pure speculation only if Glynn had any role in this, if at all)

Edited November 23, 2014 by jokin

[jokin]

Broadly speaking, that is true. Pitchers need to work ahead and hitters need to work a good count. (In Mauer's case, a good count is sometimes 0-2). But on the individual level the broad stroke philosophy starts to break down. Alex Meyer, for example. If the Twins plan to keep him in AAA until he can pinpoint all his pitches, then I might call that an organizational failure (based on what I've read about him from others). The new coaches get the benefit of the doubt since obviously it's not a job any of us could do.

 

Interesting.  Based on what I've read and Allen's track record with Price, et al, Meyer might be the biggest beneficiary of this move in the long run.

Edited November 23, 2014 by jokin

[jokin]

Berardino's source:

 

 

Mike Berardino @MikeBerardino  ·  2h 2 hours ago

Source says Carl Willis was informed Friday night he would not be selected as #MNTwins new pitching coach. Terry Ryan made the call.

 

[maxisagod]

The thing I hate most about sources, is they can be anyone. Levelle or Berardino for example can quote A source close to a team, which  could be Phil Miller who said something or even tweeted something. He's close to the team, and he said it, so they can say it. Information like this can become a chasing your own tail effect. 

 

I do massively respect the work Berardino been doing the last couple years. When trying to figured the "second finalist" for the pitching coach job it looked like he was contacting anyone he could think of just trying to see if they'd been approached by the Twins for an interview. He didn't  just wait around for a Twins exec to feed him information, he was being a reporter.  

Edited November 23, 2014 by maxisagod

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Interesting.  Based on what I've read and Allen's track record with Price, et al, Meyer might be the biggest benificiary of this move in the long run.

Hope so!

[Seth Stohs]

The key to changing the Twins mentality isn't to stop pounding the zone - Anderson was spot on with that strategy.  But at some point you have to recognize that the best pitchers pound the zone and finish hitters themselves.  We built rotations, targeted arms, and pushed players to become only half of that equation.  I don't know where it went off course but hopefully a change sets it back on track again.

 

When did the Twins have guys that finished guys off consistently? Santana (who was a Rule 5) and Liriano (who was a throw-in in a trade). Pretty sure Anderson loved having them pitching in his staff.

 

Pitching coaches, simply, need to work with what they've got. 

[Seth Stohs]

The thing I hate most about sources, is they can be anyone. Levelle or Berardino for example can quote A source close to a team, which  could be Phil Miller who said something or even tweeted something. He's close to the team, and he said it, so they can say it. Information like this can become a chasing your own tail effect. 

 

I do massively respect the work Berardino been doing the last couple years. When trying to figured the "second finalist" for the pitching coach job it looked like he was contacting anyone he could think of just trying to see if they'd been approached by the Twins for an interview. He didn't  just wait around for a Twins exec to feed him information, he was being a reporter.  

 

 

To be fair, I've used "Sources close to..." before too, and it's because the Twins aren't ready or just haven't said anything. It's nerve-wracking after you put yourself out there until the team confirms. But, speaking only for myself, I've never "broken" any news without being really, really confident in my source. And frankly, if you tell anyone publicly who your sources are, you'll lose those sources in a hurry. Reputation matters.

That said, when I wrote up this article, I was sure to credit the Strib for being the ones to break it. 1.) They deserve the credit in this case (Berardino in 96% of other cases), and 2.) if it turns out untrue, people know where it came from.

[DocBauer]

I have absolutely no problem with this, and am very intrigued by the choice. I don't care if he doesn't have ML coaching experience yet. No-one has ML coaching experience until they get their first shot. He's been around some, and most recently worked with an organization that has a reputation for producing some quality pitching talent.

 

I would have been happy with Mason for the same reasons. As well as Willis based on reputation I've heard and the ML success of his pupils. Also wondering if Glynn had something to do with a recommendation here. I believe there has been a shift in philosophy with the Twins the past few seasons in regard to drafting and trading more power arms. This is an area, ML pitching coach wise, where I was in favor of that "outside" voice. All 3 of these guys could have provided that. Excited to see what affect he brings.

[Bark's Lounge]

When did the Twins have guys that finished guys off consistently? Santana (who was a Rule 5) and Liriano (who was a throw-in in a trade). Pretty sure Anderson loved having them pitching in his staff.

 

Pitching coaches, simply, need to work with what they've got. 

Rick did get results from the very talented Santana, but the very talented Liriano was a different kind of animal. We received 2 good years out him in his tenure with the Twins, that's what? - 2 good years out of 6. I do not view Anderson as some kind of pariah or a nincompoop, but after a while the crackers get stale and you need to throw them away and buy a new box.

 

A crispy new cracker is always better in the long run, especially if you are dipping them into your soup, and it is eventual this box, if not finished will get stale, and we will have to buy a new one.

 

I prefer to not protect stale crackers as I prefer new, crispy, fresh ones.

[DocBauer]

I don't think there is a dissonance.  As pitchers you want to be ahead in the count and not walking people and as hitters you want to avoid swinging at pitches out of the zone.

 

The problem is that the Twins' pitching philosophy became too overzealous and there wasn't enough "good" strikes and guys able to miss bats in the zone.  "Pitch to contact" was all about enabling weak contact and staying ahead of hitters, something all great pitchers do.  We just started to believe any old schmuck could accomplish that if they had "good control".

This.

 

The entire "pitch to contact" philosophy is sound. Absolutely nothing wrong with the general job Anderson did over the years as PC for the Twins, especially in the dome with the budget available. What would you have your pitchers do? Not throw strikes? Dance all day around the strike zone? My thinking though, somewhat alluded to here already, is that intentionally or not, all pitchers, their stuff and approach, became pigeon-holed in to the directive.

[TheLeviathan]

When did the Twins have guys that finished guys off consistently? Santana (who was a Rule 5) and Liriano (who was a throw-in in a trade). Pretty sure Anderson loved having them pitching in his staff.

 

Pitching coaches, simply, need to work with what they've got. 

 

I would argue that the coaching staff and general manager didn't push nearly enough for the guys with the talent to do that.  I think there was a belief that you didn't need to have that kind of talent in order to be an effective pitcher.  It was almost like the Twins were trying to target a market inefficiency but went too far.

 

Furthermore, I don't think that strategy would've been employed without heavy influence from the field staff.  So while Anderson's general philosophies were fine, the problem was that they went too far with it from both a team-building and coaching perspective.

Edited November 23, 2014 by TheLeviathan

[PseudoSABR]

 It was almost like the Twins were trying to target a market inefficiency but went too far.

Good take; I've always considered this as well.  They reversed Oakland's supposed thinking, believing that BB/9 was more obtainable/teachable than BB% (OBA - AVG).  But that thinking just gets you subpar pitchers that stop living up to their measurables as they begin to face elite talent.

[maxisagod]

To be fair, I've used "Sources close to..." before too, and it's because the Twins aren't ready or just haven't said anything. It's nerve-wracking after you put yourself out there until the team confirms. But, speaking only for myself, I've never "broken" any news without being really, really confident in my source. And frankly, if you tell anyone publicly who your sources are, you'll lose those sources in a hurry. Reputation matters.

That said, when I wrote up this article, I was sure to credit the Strib for being the ones to break it. 1.) They deserve the credit in this case (Berardino in 96% of other cases), and 2.) if it turns out untrue, people know where it came from.

That's something I've always respected about Twins Daily, is staff and posters giving credit to who broke the story or found the latest bit of info. Seth you in particular when you "break something" give the credit to Twins Daily as a whole.  That doesn't go unnoticed. 

[Willihammer]

The problem is that the Twins' pitching philosophy became too overzealous and there wasn't enough "good" strikes and guys able to miss bats in the zone.

I think Gardy-Andy's idea of a "good strike" was the low strike. As if simply keeping the ball low kept the ball in the park. Then to read something like Parker's article, "On Pitching and Philosophy," you find out they might have been completely wrong and counterproductive.

 

I hope the new guy is more open to challenges to his philosophy.