Molitor Pushing Hunter Reunion

[Platoon]

I can only think of three words! WHY. WHY... WHY

[old nurse]

The hard push to sign Hunter may be a hard push to sign a veteran backup kind of contract This is the Twins, you know.

[Platoon]

When you have a roster of only 25 guys and 9 starting position players.  Is the mentor role worth 11% of payroll, 11% of your at bats, some percentage of balls hit their way?

 

My prejudice is that the mentor, rah rah thing is over-rated in sports in general.  Probably the least relevant in baseball.

 

I also would think this is a good idea if we didn't have a 23 year old DH that needs reps.

You would put a below average fielder in left, and take important AB's from a young player?? For what?? If management on this team looks anywhere but to the future, someone should explain why. A move like this would give fans a legitimate reason to question both the front office and the new field regime.

[Platoon]

Since this is starting to make my head hurt, this is my last comment! Has anyone wondered if Torii will hit as well if he is not hitting in front of Cabrera?

[Monkeypaws]

Most of these reunions make no sense, as we saw with Bartlett and Kubel.

 

However, I think Torii could be an asset to the organization next season, and after his playing days.

 

Although I know lots of you hate the "insider" aspect of Twins ball, even if an individual was only affiliated with them decades ago and for just a few seasons, I like it, provided it is the right people you hang onto.

[PseudoSABR]

Berardino suggests that he'd come for less than 5mil; for that money the Twins aren't going to get a real upgrade in the OF.  

 

Personally, I'm fine with Hunter coming in; I don't expect the Twins to compete next year and I don't want to sign a veteran OFer to a long term contract, if he wont be in his prime during our next contention window. If Hunter can help get the most out of young talent, so much the better; though his benefit will probably mostly be providing a draw for ticket sales, when the team will have few. 

[Seth Stohs]

Seth,

 

I am curious about the disconnect between you and Nick's comments from the 11/11 article:

 

"What should they be looking for in a prospective pickup at this position? Well, that also seems fairly clear. Considering that they fielded the worst defensive outfield in baseball this year, the Twins should really be seeking a player who can cover ground and provide some much-needed help for the pitching staff."

 

-Nick Nelson

 

It seems by you saying you would not have a huge problem if we sign Hunter, you don't agree that we should  make defense a priority in LF.  Or do you think Torii is still a good defender?

 

I think defense is important in left field. I also think offense is important. I also have said that I would not be in favor of the Twins signing Torii Hunter. I read the stats that say he's very non-good in the outfield anymore. Let's also remember, he's never really played much left field, certainly non in the last 12-13 years. I also said that I wouldn't go crazy if they did sign him. Others were talking about jumping ship on being a Twins fan altogether if they signed Hunter. Seems more than a little extreme to me. 

[Kwak]

It would be a mistake to sign Hunter as a player.  The Twins need players not marketing gimmicks.  If anyone is added, it should be for 4+ years--or don't bother.

[Linus]

You're free to provide evidence that Dougie's numerous tweets are reliable.  He tweets numerous things every day that never come true or have credibility. 

 

However, feel free to go back out on the ledge and rant about the hypothetical.

[jokin]

You're free to provide evidence that Dougie's numerous tweets are reliable.  He tweets numerous things every day that never come true or have credibility. 

 

However, feel free to go back out on the ledge and rant about the hypothetical.

+100

[Rosterman]

Kansas City has to be in the mix as they look for a designated hitter for possibly under $10.

 

Vargas is still a question mark as he enters year 2. He can hold the job, or flame out. If anything, Hunter would be insurance if we truly need a designated hitter who can also play the outfield.

 

And, yes, he is better than Willingham, Parmelee or Arcia out there, which doesn't speak well for us at the moment. The guy in center better be able to cover a lot of ground and not be named Santana.

 

If Hunter can get two years, he will go to that team. If he gets one, it will be a price factor. And Texas and Houston should still be in the mix, too.

 

I doubt he'd love playing in Toronto.

 

In the scheme of things, he does have bills to pay!

[tobi0040]

I think defense is important in left field. I also think offense is important. I also have said that I would not be in favor of the Twins signing Torii Hunter. I read the stats that say he's very non-good in the outfield anymore. Let's also remember, he's never really played much left field, certainly non in the last 12-13 years. I also said that I wouldn't go crazy if they did sign him. Others were talking about jumping ship on being a Twins fan altogether if they signed Hunter. Seems more than a little extreme to me.

 

I agree that to not follow the team is extreme.

 

But for me any optimism about this cerebral genius of a coach is gone (if the reports are true)

[jokin]

May be true, but this is starting to feel like "2013 Reunion Tour: The Sequel" as we've already brought Eddie G on board, and now we're going after Torii. Why not look forward instead!

 

Yep. why not go completely the other direction and rather than address the needs of the season-ticket sales people who embrace their current marketing model of touting recycled and washed-up names from the past, sell NEW!, go younger!!!,  the time is now-   and in the process, logically address the actual most glaring need besides pitching- which is the OF defense. 

 

Plenty of low-cost possibilities....

 

27-year-old Peter Bourjos isn't anywhere close to fossilization and is unlikely to cost much more than an RP prospect in trade- I still think that people don't appreciate that he is a dynamic game-changer defensively- cost-controlled for the next two years while holding the seat down for Buck, plus, he's due for a nice bounceback at the plate coming back to the AL  (in 2011 and 2013 for the Angels he slashed .271/.327/.438/.765 and .274/.333/.377/.710).  

 

Or how about trading a young bat or two to offensively-challenged Tampa Bay (AL worst 612 Runs scored) for 24-year-old Kevin Kiermaier?  Or they could even go much younger, and pick 22-year-old Delino Deshields in the Rule 5 draft, possibly a perfect RHB platoon partner in CF with LHB Schafer.  And there is still a good chance that Plouffe and/or 23-year-old Rosario can end up playing significant time in LF or RF.  24-year old Santana could still go back to CF with everyone else shifting around.  And Hicks could platoon some with Arcia in RF  ( A trade of Arcia for Kiermaier could lead to Hicks even platooning some with Mauer).  Any or all of these options would lead to much better overall OF defense than Hunter and Arcia playing full-time in the corners.

 

 

And any of these options give you more payroll room to go bigger on SPs.

[DocBauer]

I will also refrain from bridge diving if this happens.

 

And it shouldn't happen...unless it was on the cheap as a role player. We don't gave room at DH. I originally thought Hunter was a good possibility for 1 year. Defensively, I don't always out a lot of faith in metrics. I prefer the eye test at the end of the day. And I confess to not seeing Hunter play but a few innings this year. From what I read, you'd think Hunter limps out to the OF with a Walker, cane and a pair of crutches. I think he can still hit and be productive, at least one more year. But if he doesn't have the wheels for at least one more solid...just capable....year defensively as a LF then I vote no.

 

But it is NOT a mistake to bring on a veteran FA OF option. There is need and right now, there is no one being blocked.

[stringer bell]

I'd like the Twins to acquire a left fielder who actually has played left field. Among the players mentioned, Rios has played one game in left in his career, and Hunter has played two innings in left field in this millennium. As I have mentioned before, I am in the minority that believes the Twins must proceed as if they are going to contend in 2015, meaning it isn't time for guys in their mid- to late-30's to learn how to play a new position. Plouffe too, but at least he's under 30.

[Monkeypaws]

I remember when the Twins let Hunter go, the comments at the time at the Twins sites of the day were along the lines of, "enjoy that 36 year old Hunter when the contract runs out stupid Angels." Well that 36 year old hit .313., posted an .817 ops, and drove in 92 runs. He isn't your average late 30s ballplayer.

[jokin]

I remember when the Twins let Hunter go, the comments at the time at the Twins sites of the day were along the lines of, "enjoy that 36 year old Hunter when the contract runs out stupid Angels." Well that 36 year old hit .313., posted an .817 ops, and drove in 92 runs.                   He isn't your average late 30s ballplayer.

 

No, he isn't.  He's had a great career.  And just as many people rued the day he left the Twins. 

 

But the fact remains, he's dropped off precipitously in the last two years (0.3 fWAR/ 0.4bWAR), most particulary in the OF.  The fact that his UZR, DRS, RngR ratings are by far the worst of any RF in baseball, much worse than even Oswaldo Arcia, is pretty telling that his time is up in the field... and the Twins have plenty of DH options already in the fold.  Wrong team, wrong timing.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=rf&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=750&type=1&season=2014&month=0&season1=2014&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

[ashbury]

However, feel free to go back out on the ledge and rant about the hypothetical.

Moderator's note: Please end the bickering.  The words used on both sides have been dismissive and otherwise lacking in respect for each other.

[USAFChief]

My thoughts:

 

I doubt Hunter is as bad an outfielder as metrics make him out to be. He has surely lost much range, but that isn't the only thing that goes into it. He once was a great center fielder, my guess is he still has the instincts to be passable. In any case, I have never believed corner OF defense is worth a great deal.

 

He can probably still hit better than every current Twin OF option with the possible exception of Arcia.

 

All that being said, I agree with the post above...the overwhelming sense this gives me is disappointment. Hunter isn't going to move the needle much towards winning even at best possible performance, and might fall off a cliff. Rather than try to make moves that might actually result in a much better team, we hear they are pursuing a 39 year old, and the new manager's reasoning isn't even performance based. You sort of wonder,,,if he hadn't been a Twin, would they even be considering this, which is the wrong reason to pursue a FA.

 

It hasn't happened yet, so maybe we're jumping the gun. But IMO, not an encouraging start to the offseason.

 

And this is coming from a guy who was a big Hunter fan, BTW.

[stringer bell]

I respect what Hunter has done, both with the Twins and after he left them, but I really don't see this as a fit. Is he going to be a big clubhouse influence as a partime player? Or is he, at 39, going to be a starter for 140-plus games? Where would he hit in the lineup? Is he really going to play left field?

 

I also have some concerns about what kind of hitter he would be when not hitting between some of the best hitters in the business. Whatever money that would be spent on Torii would be better spent on pitching and defense.

[Jerr]

I can only think of three words! WHY. WHY... WHY

And I can think of three more: NO! NO!! NO!!!

[tobi0040]

And this is coming from a guy who was a big Hunter fan, BTW.

 

I should have clarified as well, he was by far my favorite Twin in the 2000's.  But I still want no part of this.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Having Hunter around to teach a guys like Arcia/Buxton the finer points of defense wouldn't be a bad thing, but I'm not sure I want Hunter playing LF.  If the Twins are talking Hunter on a 1 year deal, then I have to assume they are pretty sold on Rosario taking over in LF. 

[jorgenswest]

Hunter will not be expensive. If a good team believes he can make a significant contribution towards winning, he will find a home with a contender.

 

If not, he will need to seek a spot on a mediocre team and contribute to their cycle of mediocrity.

[Otto von Ballpark]

You're free to provide evidence that Dougie's numerous tweets are reliable.  He tweets numerous things every day that never come true or have credibility.

I generally only see his tweets here at Twins Daily, and they've always seemed pretty accurate.

 

Out of curiosity, I search for all of his Twins news/rumors tweets:

https://twitter.com/search?q=%23mntwins%20from%3Adarrenwolfson&src=typd

[Otto von Ballpark]

In terms of expected contract, MLB Trade Rumors had Hunter #33 on their "Top 50 FA" list, right next to AJ Burnett (who recently signed probably below market at 1/8.5), and sandwiched near Cuddyer (2/21 plus comp pick) and Billy Butler (3/30) or Nori Aoki (predicted 2/16).  So the rumors of 1/8 or 1/10 for Hunter seem pretty accurate.

 

Berardino reported the Twins would be offering less ($5 mil?), which I guess is good in that it will hopefully keep us from signing him.  But it would also appear that perhaps the Twins are only budgeting that reduced amount for an outfielder, which could lead to being shut out again.

 

For reference, MLBTR predicts 1/8.5 for Alex Rios, and 1/12 (or perhaps 3/30) for Colby Rasmus.

[tobi0040]

In terms of expected contract, MLB Trade Rumors had Hunter #33 on their "Top 50 FA" list, right next to AJ Burnett (who recently signed probably below market at 1/8.5), and sandwiched near Cuddyer (2/21 plus comp pick) and Billy Butler (3/30) or Nori Aoki (predicted 2/16).  So the rumors of 1/8 or 1/10 for Hunter seem pretty accurate.

 

Berardino reported the Twins would be offering less ($5 mil?), which I guess is good in that it will hopefully keep us from signing him.  But it would also appear that perhaps the Twins are only budgeting that reduced amount for an outfielder, which could lead to being shut out again.

 

For reference, MLBTR predicts 1/8.5 for Alex Rios, and 1/12 (or perhaps 3/30) for Colby Rasmus.

 

Rios has much better reports defensively. Hunter may have a better bat.  But our needs our starting pitching and OF defense. So lets sign Rios if it was between the two.

[jorgenswest]

Rasmus is the only free agent signing that makes this year and in the future. Buying his 28-30 year old seasons makes a lot more sense than signing a decline phase player on a one year deal. 

 

The best case for Rasmus is that he is a valuable regular for three years. The worst case is they are stuck with a contract paying a platoon player (who can play all three OF positions) too much money.

 

The best case for the others is a hope of a half season approaching career norms and a trade for a hard throwing 24 year old reliever in July or August. Worst Case - a more expensive Jason Kubel.

 

Free agency isn't the only way to add players. Teams are allowed to make trades and the Twins have prospects to trade. If they can't get Rasmus, they need to look to make a trade. If they can't find a good trade, then give Schafer two months and be ready to bring up Rosario, Buxton or Sano (Plouffe to LF) on June 1. All of these scenarios are attempts at building long term. Meanwhile, they should also be adding mid 20s minor league free agents or DFAs in hopes of finding upside.

[jokin]

Rasmus is the only free agent signing that makes this year and in the future. Buying his 28-30 year old seasons makes a lot more sense than signing a decline phase player on a one year deal.

Free agency isn't the only way to add players. Teams are allowed to make trades and the Twins have prospects to trade. If they can't get Rasmus, they need to look to make a trade. If they can't find a good trade, then give Schafer two months and be ready to bring up Rosario, Buxton or Sano (Plouffe to LF) on June 1. All of these scenarios are attempts at building long term. Meanwhile, they should also be adding mid 20s minor league free agents or DFAs in hopes of finding upside.

 

This is some good stuff.  Find some more minor league FAs you say?  You mean retaining Eric Farris for that depth role wasn't sufficient upside for you?      There would be a lot of upside in drafting 22-year old Delino Desields as a Rule 5 for the whopping cost of $50,000.

[jorgenswest]

This is some good stuff. Find some more minor league FAs you say? You mean retaining Eric Farris for that depth role wasn't sufficient upside for you? There would be a lot of upside in drafting 22-year old Delino Desields as a Rule 5 for the whopping cost of $50,000.

I guess I wasn't clear about the meanwhile...

 

To be clear, they don't wait around until they sign Rasmus or make a trade but while they are negotiating they are also adding mid 20s minor league free agents or DFAs hoping for a JD Martinez rather than the retreads of a year ago.