Article: Playing Hurt: A Painful Debate

[Jack Torse]

Where is the proof that Souhan was wrong or was ingaging in ridiculous exaggeration?  None was provided in the piece.  You stop short of calling him an outright lier so you must be refrencing something very specific.  Was it a bone bruise?  A little context to support your claim of his ridiculous exaggeration.  please and thanks.

[Thrylos]

Not all ailments are equal.   If someone can worsen his condition by playing instead of resting for a day or two, and, thus, missing more time he should not play.  If he cannot worsen his condition, but just a discomfort (like flu-like symptoms) he should play.

 

The biggest issue is how the Twins are handling the DL.  I hope that Molitor handles that different than Gardenhire and I hope that he does not carry 3 catchers and 13 pitchers.  It is a combination problem.

[one_eyed_jack]

  On 11/8/2014 at 1:20 PM, Jack Torse said:

Where is the proof that Souhan was wrong or was ingaging in ridiculous exaggeration?  None was provided in the piece.  You stop short of calling him an outright lier so you must be refrencing something very specific.  Was it a bone bruise?  A little context to support your claim of his ridiculous exaggeration.  please and thanks.

 

The appropriate question is where is the prrof that Souhan was right.  The burden is on him to support it, not on everyone else to refute it.  You can't throw out a claim like that and expect it to be assumed accurate until someone provides proof to the contrary. 

[James Richter]

Is playing through the injury going to cause long-term damage to the player? Good for Radke for finding a way to succeed with his injured shoulder, but that effort also ended his career. The Twins know they'll be paying Mauer a lot of money for the next 4 years whether he takes the field or not. They've got a huge incentive to try to keep him from suffering any permanent damage.

 

Is the diminished performance resulting from the injury still a net gain for the team compared to the healthy sub? Part of the frustration with injuries the last few seasons is how much they've weakened the team thanks to the near total lack of depth the Twins have had at the upper levels. When people got hurt in 2006, they sent them to the DL and the guy they called up plugged into the lineup and kept the machine humming along and everyone was happy. But when injuries to the starters means lots of PAs for Drew Butera or IP from Cole DeVries, people can start to wish that the front-line guy would just tough it out. Lessening the gulf between the starters and the next couple spots on the depth chart might help.

[ashbury]

The story on Radke, maybe embellished at the time, was that he had decided to retire after that season anyway, and in consultation with doctors decided to just go ahead and pitch through it toward the playoffs.

[one_eyed_jack]

  On 11/7/2014 at 1:20 PM, KGB said:

Probably like everyone else on this site, I don't have knowledge of Mauers injurys, so you have to listen to people who are closer to the situation.  I would think Souhan & Reusse are closer to the clubhouse and would have better information on the culture.  I'm not hearing any teammates jumping out and defending Mauer toughness.  The only time I remember anyone talking about was Torii Hunter, who basically agreed with Souhan & Reusse.

 

All that being said, Mauer just need to go out and play 150 games and drive in 100 runs.  It's really up to him to show he can still produce.

 

Others players have defended him before.  Perkins here for example.  But Souhan didn't ask any other players for comment here, and they're not going to pro-actively address something like this. 

 

I don't know what Hunter said, but much as I loved watching him as a player, his memory is questionable.

 

And while the local scribes may be closer to the team and have more access than us,  that doesn't mean that they are always right, or that their word should be taken as gospel.

[tobi0040]

  On 11/8/2014 at 1:36 AM, stringer bell said:

I always had the feeling that Gardy was being ordered to protect Mauer by the front office and did so grudgingly.

 

I am guessing the FO does push for longer rest periods.  But we all know Gardy could be persuaded by a veteran demanding to play.  One Kurt Suzuki is a great example of this (he caught 119 games as a 31 year old and played in another 12).

 

While the financial commitment is very different between Mauer and Suzuki, I can't recall a single instance  in Mauer's career where he argued to remain in a game or argued with the training staff, coaches, etc. to come back from an injury prior to anyone wanting him to.

 

I don't think the guy has a paper cut and misses a game, but I do think some players in the league play through things that he does not.  Whether he lacks fire or is just more cautious (or smart) I am not sure.

[twinsnorth49]

If an injury prevents you from playing at the required level or if playing through it increases the risk of making it worse, you should take a break.

The "tough guy, gutting it out " meme is so tired and cliche. The sports world is filled with macho idiots who put themselves at further risk and weaken their teams by trying to maintain an image, one that at the end of the day is a self centered one, not one that is about the team.

Brett Favre could possibly be the poster boy for this attitude, the guy was all about himself, lol.

[KGB]

  On 11/8/2014 at 7:00 PM, one_eyed_jack said:

Others players have defended him before.  Perkins here for example.  But Souhan didn't ask any other players for comment here, and they're not going to pro-actively address something like this. 

 

I don't know what Hunter said, but much as I loved watching him as a player, his memory is questionable.

 

And while the local scribes may be closer to the team and have more access than us,  that doesn't mean that they are always right, or that their word should be taken as gospel.

HomeSportsTwins/MLB

Twins: Mauer might have to learn how to pace himself

Article by: LA VELLE E. NEAL III , Star Tribune Updated: June 7, 2007 - 11:54 PM

 

"I think some people take pain in different ways," Twins center fielder Torii Hunter said. "Some people have to play at 100 percent, and Joe may be one of those guys. I've seen it happen. Joe is a good player, and he wants to perform at 100 percent, not at 80 percent.

 

Here's Hunter's comments from 2007.

[tobi0040]

  On 11/8/2014 at 7:42 PM, twinsnorth49 said:

If an injury prevents you from playing at the required level or if playing through it increases the risk of making it worse, you should take a break.

 

The "tough guy, gutting it out " meme is so tired and cliche. The sports world is filled with macho idiots who put themselves at further risk and weaken their teams by trying to maintain an image, one that at the end of the day is a self centered one, not one that is about the team.

 

Brett Favre could possibly be the poster boy for this attitude, the guy was all about himself, lol.

 

While I too think Favre is selfish and arrogant, I view this a little differently. 

 

I think Favre knew that at 80%, he was still better than a healthy backup.  In the case of Mauer, it is hard to see how Mauer at 80% is not better than Drew Butera, Fryer, and the rest of the backups we had while he was a catcher.  Even if playing through something prolonged it a day or two, a hall of fame caliber player at 80% is going to exceed the output of a bench guy in most cases.

 

I am speculating that was part of Hunter's frustration and the reason for the comment.

Edited November 8, 2014 by tobi0040

[one_eyed_jack]

Well, that assumes that Mauer could have played at 80%.  But we don't know that and frankly, neither does Hunter.

 

I noticed Hunter also went with the Favre tough guy schtick there:

 

"Me, I grew up in a different time. I'm ready to play no matter what -- broken toe, hamstring, groin, back -- and that's the mentality I've grown to have."

 

I'm with twinsnorth, this is macho silliness.  Instead of making it the analysis of risk vs. reward that it should be, it gets made into this thing about manhood where you play "no matter what'.  (And Torii has missed time due to injury in his career, so clearly he does not play "no matter what".)

 

But getting back to the Souhan's original comment:  I would believe that Mauer has been held out of the lineup on days he could have played.  But Souhan said Mauer begged out of the lineup because of a bruise.  That I do not find believable at all.

[ashbury]

  On 11/9/2014 at 1:23 AM, one_eyed_jack said:

But Souhan said Mauer begged out of the lineup because of a bruise.  That I do not find believable at all.

I find it completely believable.

 

... that a columnist said such a thing.

[DocBauer]

  On 11/7/2014 at 1:10 PM, twinsajsf said:

Excellent article, Nick.  Mauer makes a lot of money, so it's always fair to criticize him for lack of production when he plays poorly.  But to question his character/toughness is ridiculous.

 

Yes. True. But only to a point.

 

People simply HAVE TO STOP with the Mauer bashing. Is he perhaps overpaid? Did he just happen to have the best year of his career in a contract year? Yes and yes. But it could be argued most top athletes are overpaid. Even in the context of multi million player contracts in baseball, in all sports, you could point to a lot of players that are "overpaid" for a variety of reasons. So Mauer may not be Johnny Bench and Babe Ruth rolled in to one. Who said he was supposed to be? He is a local kid done good. He's a quality guy with a great story. He's a multiple All Star, Gold Glove winner and Silver Slugger winner. Gleeman recently did a piece on his site where he compares Mauer and Molitor through their age 31 seasons. And guess what? In most categories, Mauer ranks ahead of his HOF manager.

 

And before we just bury the guy and put a RIP above his name, can we give him this offseason to work his normal routine and get ready for 2015? This time last year he was still trying to recover from post concussion syndrome. Go talk to Koskie and Morneau about what they went through before you pile on Mauer.

[tobi0040]

I think as a summary on this thread.....

 

These are facts:

 

Some people call Mauer soft. Columnists, fans, and at least one ex player.

 

Nobody (to my knowledge) has ever described the guy as gritty, hard nosed, or tough. 

 

The press (to my knowledge) has never ran a story or mentioned how Mauer argued to stay in a game or come back from an injury earlier than anyone wanted, or praised him for fighting through anything.  That includes the first 6-7 years of his career prior to this large contract.

 

What it means is speculation.  It could be bad luck, him being cautious, could be that he doesn't want to fight through anythiing, or it could be that he is a victim of unfair attacks for a number of reasons (money, jealousy, etc.)

 

My personal opinion is that he does not play through things that some people would play through. That is not proveable or falsifiable.   Why he does not play through things I don't know. It could be that he has high expectations for himself and playing at 80% would not meet those expectations. If it is the latter, the contract probably plays a role because he knows the contract has raised everyone elses expectations as well. 

[one_eyed_jack]

  On 11/9/2014 at 3:45 PM, tobi0040 said:

I think as a summary on this thread.....

 

These are facts:

 

Some people call Mauer soft. Columnists, fans, and at least one ex player.

 

Nobody (to my knowledge) has ever described the guy as gritty, hard nosed, or tough. 

 

The press (to my knowledge) has never ran a story or mentioned how Mauer argued to stay in a game or come back from an injury earlier than anyone wanted, or praised him for fighting through anything.  That includes the first 6-7 years of his career prior to this large contract.

 

Sore hip won't stop Mauer from catching

 

Mauer playing through all kinds of pain

 

Examples in addition to the one I posted earlier in the thread.

Edited November 9, 2014 by one_eyed_jack

[tobi0040]

  On 11/9/2014 at 6:56 PM, one_eyed_jack said:

Sore hip won't stop Mauer from catching

 

Mauer playing through all kinds of pain

 

Examples in addition to the one I posted earlier in the thread.

 

Allow me to revise my statement.

 

The information available questioning Mauer's toughness versus praising him is weighted heavily on the questioning his toughness side. 

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

People keep citing articles written by under-40, out of market, sportswriters to back their belief that no one should question Mauer's toughness.

 

I sort of wish Mauer had been not mentioned in the original article. Other guys had more interesting injuries we could rehash: Pelfrey, Nolasco, Nunez, Colabello, Arcia, and so on.

/highhorse

[one_eyed_jack]

  On 11/9/2014 at 7:52 PM, tobi0040 said:

Allow me to revise my statement.

 

The information available questioning Mauer's toughness versus praising him is weighted heavily on the questioning his toughness side. 

 

Information?  You've cited other people's opinions and perceptions.  That's not information. 

 

The fact that a viewpoint is shared by a couple of local writers who like to stir up the hornet's nest, a bunch of ranting keyboard warriors in the Strib comments section, and one former teammate whose mouth moves faster than his brain does not give it legitimacy.

[ashbury]

  On 11/9/2014 at 6:56 PM, one_eyed_jack said:

Sore hip won't stop Mauer from catching

"As he told me before I left the clubhouse just now, 'I am a catcher, no matter what you say,'" Gardenhire said in his Saturday morning news conference.

 

Wait, what?

 

Gardy always liked to slip the needle now and then.

[tobi0040]

  On 11/9/2014 at 8:40 PM, one_eyed_jack said:

Information?  You've cited other people's opinions and perceptions.  That's not information. 

 

The fact that a viewpoint is shared by a couple of local writers who like to stir up the hornet's nest, a bunch of ranting keyboard warriors in the Strib comments section, and one former teammate whose mouth moves faster than his brain does not give it legitimacy.

 

The topic is subjective. We can parse words all we want.  I stated it was a fact that people in the media, fans, and ex player have questioned his toughness and that the opinions out there are weighted to the side of Mauer not being a tough player versus being a tough player. 

 

I didn't say it is a fact that Mauer is not tough.  Then I offered my opinion.  It is impossible to prove that, or disprove it.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

Talking football injury versus baseball injury - it's a much bigger deal for an NFL starter to miss one game than it is for an MLB starter to miss 5 games. In the NFL, each game has playoff implications, and one missed game is missing a good chunk of the regular season.  

 

For Mauer to sit out of Gardenhire's lineup for a few days doesn't likely change the Twins' place in the standings.

For Farve to stay in the game at 80% or even 60% is much more important to the team's season and final standings. Quarterbacks especially, since they touch the ball on nearly every offensive play, are in a different category in terms of playing through injury.

 

When Mauer was catching, he had a bigger impact on the outcome of the game, but now that he's at first base, it doesn't really bother me if he needs an extra day. I expect that will happen to everyday players at various points in the season.

 

I'm still curious how 2015 will shake itself out - will Molitor give Mauer the same day-to-day treatment that Gardy has, or will he force Mauer to choose between the starting lineup and the DL?

[nicksaviking]

  On 11/10/2014 at 1:44 AM, tobi0040 said:

  On 11/10/2014 at 1:44 AM, tobi0040 said:

The topic is subjective. We can parse words all we want.  I stated it was a fact that people in the media, fans, and ex player have questioned his toughness and that the opinions out there are weighted to the side of Mauer not being a tough player versus being a tough player. 

 

I didn't say it is a fact that Mauer is not tough.  Then I offered my opinion.  It is impossible to prove that, or disprove it.

 

I don't know that Mauer is all that tough of an athlete, however to be fair, it's probably not something that should be determined by weighing pro/con voices in the media or fandom.  After all, the media get more hits the more critical they are of local athletes, and of course the fans opinions are (sadly) all too often formed by what guys like Souhan says.

Edited November 10, 2014 by nicksaviking

[KGB]

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:17 PM, nicksaviking said:

I don't know that Mauer is all that tough of an athlete, however to be fair, it's probably not something that should be determined by weighing pro/con voices in the media or fandom.  After all, the media get more hits the more critical they are of local athletes, and of course the fans opinions are (sadly) all too often formed by what guys like Souhan says.

I agree we don't know Mauer toughness, but it seems we have less faith in the reporting of someone who has access to the athletes than a national reporter who probably has never stepped into the Twins locker room.  It looks like most people are informed by want they want to believe and considering another view is not an option.

[Mike Sixel]

I'd argue those saying he isn't tough have no idea. They aren't in the locker, they aren't trainers, they don't know if he's asked to stay in games. But, they are certain he's just not tough.

 

I'd guess he's tougher than most here are giving him credit for, but I don't know that.....and I have no faith that Souhan is a reporter. That's not his job.

[nicksaviking]

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:41 PM, KGB said:

I agree we don't know Mauer toughness, but it seems we have less faith in the reporting of someone who has access to the athletes than a national reporter who probably has never stepped into the Twins locker room.  It looks like most people are informed by want they want to believe and considering another view is not an option.

 

I don't believe that is insular to people's opinion of Joe Mauer's toughness. 

 

My first thought is to go on a "back in the day" bit about how people are more stubborn now and think changing one's opinion is a weakness, though it sounds wildly inaccurate to credit past generations open-mindedness, so I guess we just have to leave it up to classic human nature/lack of education debates.

[tobi0040]

  On 11/10/2014 at 2:55 PM, mike wants wins said:

I'd argue those saying he isn't tough have no idea. They aren't in the locker, they aren't trainers, they don't know if he's asked to stay in games. But, they are certain he's just not tough.

 

I'd guess he's tougher than most here are giving him credit for, but I don't know that.....and I have no faith that Souhan is a reporter. That's not his job.

 

I don't mean to pile on you Mike.  I have seen this line of thought from a million others as well. But I really don't understand this meme, which is quite common here.  You have no idea....or we have no idea why Joe wasn't playing, or how hurt he was. What others in the locker room think of him.  Or we have no idea why Pinto is not catching. Or for that matter whether or not we tried signing a guy or trading for another.  Or what dollar amount the Pohlads would go up to.

 

This entire site is 95% opinion and speculation.  To my knowledge none of us are insiders.  So whenever people disagree it is easy to say they don't know or they can't prove something.

Edited November 10, 2014 by tobi0040

[Mike Sixel]

Except people aren't saying opinions, they are saying factual stuff, like "he never asks to play". You have been clear here that it is your opinion, but others are clearly stating "facts" that are not so. 

 

I'll just let it drop. we have no idea.

[tobi0040]

  On 11/10/2014 at 8:18 PM, mike wants wins said:

Except people aren't saying opinions, they are saying factual stuff, like "he never asks to play". You have been clear here that it is your opinion, but others are clearly stating "facts" that are not so. 

 

I'll just let it drop. we have no idea.

 

I have not followed the thread enough to read that from others. I thought that was aimed at me.  Thanks for the clarification. 

[one_eyed_jack]

Look I don't truly know whether Mauer is tough or not.  I've never claimed to.  I was just trying to refute the line of thinking that because Souhan, a bunch of fans, and possibly one former teammate with a penchant for saying ludicrous things think he is, there must be something to it.

 

I have no inside access to what goes on behind the scenes. 

 

But I can see what happens on the field and draw some conclusions from that. For example I think what Mauer was able to accomplish from '08-10 tends to refute Hunter's 2007 comment.  I don't see how you excel as an MLB catcher to that degree while lacking toughness.  To me, it's also not particularly suggestive of a guy who "begs" out of the lineup because of a bruise.

[twinsnorth49]

I agree with One eye, by the time you've reached the majors as a catcher, let alone played 10 seasons as one in the big leagues, you've kinda proved your toughness.