One man's opinion of top300 Twins of all time

[Nate Tubbs Rules]

5 new Twins added to the list this year (Hughes, Santana, Suzuki, Escobar, Gibson).  Joe can't get ahead of TonyO, but he's almost there in my mind.  Dozier jumps into the top100, Plouffe into the top150.

 

https://wgom.org/2014/10/13/one-mans-opinion-of-the-top300-twins-of-all-time-updated-for-2014-with-new-additions-hughes-santana-suzuki-escobar-gibson/

 

Thoughts?

[Brock Beauchamp]

The header on your blog is cracking me the **** up.

 

edit: I see you use a rotator. The 2012 Mauer one is what made me laugh.

[big dog]

Wow, that's a pretty quick dropoff once you get into the 60s or below.  I was struck by Liriano, one spot above Mays.  Liriano certainly had his bad years, but man, when he was good he was good.  Peak years vs. average is always a debate in these kind of things.

 

I would like to see Tom Herr even lower than 258, but that's a very good start.

 

It's amazing to see how short the Twins careers were of some of the guys I cheered for when I was a little kid.  George Mitterwald only played 4 years?  It seemed like my whole life!  Of course, it was probably when I was 8-12, so at the time it more or less was my whole life.

 

Interesting table, I'm sure I'll spend more time with it during this looooooong offseason.  Thanks.

[Nate Tubbs Rules]

FYI-the YRS column is a little misleading.  Its "Years Started" so Mitterwald was onlty the starting catcher 4 seasons even if he was there for 7.  Johan for example was only one of the 5 starting pitchers 4 years even though he was a Twin for 8 (and in 2003 was their best starter, receiving Cy Young votes, starting game1 of the ALDS even though he was 6th on the team that year in starts)

[stringer bell]

Nice to see how highly Shane Mack is rated. He was an outstanding player in his rather brief tenure with the Twins. I also like the relatively high rating for Cuddy in comparison to some guys, like Gladden.

[Ben B]

Puts into perspective how few great, or even very good, players there are in a team with a 50-year history when you get down to 100 and you're already looking at Mike Trombley and Pat Meares. 

[glunn]

5 new Twins added to the list this year (Hughes, Santana, Suzuki, Escobar, Gibson).  Joe can't get ahead of TonyO, but he's almost there in my mind.  Dozier jumps into the top100, Plouffe into the top150.

 

https://wgom.org/2014/10/13/one-mans-opinion-of-the-top300-twins-of-all-time-updated-for-2014-with-new-additions-hughes-santana-suzuki-escobar-gibson/

 

Thoughts?

I think that this is a great list.  Very interesting.

[old nurse]

Never really thought that over time for any team there were that few great players that played the game for any one team.  Thinking there must be something funny with this guy's list I went over to fangraphs. Since 1960 for the Twins by Fangraphs, the 53 best batter by WAR is Jim Kaat. Before anyone goes how pathertic, for the Yankess over that time period the equivalent is Danny Tartabull . AJ Ellis for the Dodgers with Manny's short time there at number 54. Placido Polanco for the Cards. Andre Rodgers for the Cubs at 53 and had worse WAR then Kaat. They went by playing time with the team, not career total WAR

[Nate Tubbs Rules]

Jim Kaat was a pretty good hitter, part of the reason I have him ahead of Blylevelen who was the superior pitcher.  Kaat could hit and field and played a little bit longer as a Twin than Bert. 

[gil4]

Wow, that's a pretty quick dropoff once you get into the 60s or below.  I was struck by Liriano, one spot above Mays.  Liriano certainly had his bad years, but man, when he was good he was good.  Peak years vs. average is always a debate in these kind of things.

 

I would like to see Tom Herr even lower than 258, but that's a very good start.

 

It's amazing to see how short the Twins careers were of some of the guys I cheered for when I was a little kid.  George Mitterwald only played 4 years?  It seemed like my whole life!  Of course, it was probably when I was 8-12, so at the time it more or less was my whole life.

 

Interesting table, I'm sure I'll spend more time with it during this looooooong offseason.  Thanks.

 

It does seem like I had more than 4 years worth of George Mitterwald and Phil Roof baseball cards.  I guess 4 years was a lot longer back then. 

 

I agree 100% about Herr and Liriano.  There are some career minor-leaguers/cup-o' coffee guys that I'd rank ahead of what Herr did for/to the Twins.  

[Nate Tubbs Rules]

I hated Tom Herr as a kid, but, looking bad at it, what did he do tht was so bad?    Its not like he submarined the team.  They won 6 more games in 1988 than in 1987.  It was 1989 and 1990 when they flipped him for the terrible Shane Rawley and tried Wally Backman and Al Newman at 2nd base that they had losing records.  He gave them 345 PA of above average offense (from a 2nd baseman) with an 89 OPS+ and decent defense depending on what metric you're looking at.   Doesn't this sort of sound like JJ Hardy?  They gave up a decent player for him (Bruno/Gomez) and then too quickly gave up on the new aquistion because they didn't feel like he was on the field long enough (too injury prone in a pretty small sample size).  In Hardy's case they misguidingly wanted more speed and in Herr's case they possibly didn't like his religious influence (atlthough was that overblown?) 

[nicksaviking]

I hated Tom Herr as a kid, but, looking bad at it, what did he do tht was so bad?    Its not like he submarined the team.  They won 6 more games in 1988 than in 1987.  It was 1989 and 1990 when they flipped him for the terrible Shane Rawley and tried Wally Backman and Al Newman at 2nd base that they had losing records.  He gave them 345 PA of above average offense (from a 2nd baseman) with an 89 OPS+ and decent defense depending on what metric you're looking at.   Doesn't this sort of sound like JJ Hardy?  They gave up a decent player for him (Bruno/Gomez) and then too quickly gave up on the new aquistion because they didn't feel like he was on the field long enough (too injury prone in a pretty small sample size).  In Hardy's case they misguidingly wanted more speed and in Herr's case they possibly didn't like his religious influence (atlthough was that overblown?) 

 

Because Tommy Herr made an 9 year old sob uncontrolably.  My childhood immediately ended when I heard the news of that trade.  Plus he was a club house cancer who apparently had to constantly read his Bible to find answers as to why God allowed him to be traded to the Twins.

[nicksaviking]

Tom Prince over Lenny Webster?  Come one Nate, clearly you didn't put enough time or thought into this.  I'd strongly suggest you go back and re-evaluate your last 50 or so selections.

[ashbury]

Puts into perspective how few great, or even very good, players there are in a team with a 50-year history when you get down to 100 and you're already looking at Mike Trombley and Pat Meares. 

I had tucked away in the recesses of my brain that, more generally, ten percent of all at bats have been taken by Hall of Famers.  A quick search turned up this, in which somebody took the time to try and confirm this.

 

http://darowski.com/hall-of-wwar/hofpct/

 

9.6% to be exact.  And 7.1% of all innings pitched.

 

This despite the HOF accounts for only 1.3% of all players who ever played. 

 

Across so many eras, such numbers may be skewed relative to today's game.  Still, the connection is clear; the best players are the ones who do it year after year, and their impact outweighs that of the mass of other players.  It's interesting to see this borne out in the OP's list.

[big dog]

I hated Tom Herr as a kid, but, looking bad at it, what did he do tht was so bad?    Its not like he submarined the team.  They won 6 more games in 1988 than in 1987.  It was 1989 and 1990 when they flipped him for the terrible Shane Rawley and tried Wally Backman and Al Newman at 2nd base that they had losing records.  He gave them 345 PA of above average offense (from a 2nd baseman) with an 89 OPS+ and decent defense depending on what metric you're looking at.   Doesn't this sort of sound like JJ Hardy?  They gave up a decent player for him (Bruno/Gomez) and then too quickly gave up on the new aquistion because they didn't feel like he was on the field long enough (too injury prone in a pretty small sample size).  In Hardy's case they misguidingly wanted more speed and in Herr's case they possibly didn't like his religious influence (atlthough was that overblown?) 

 

He was shocked to be traded and as NV said above, spent a lot of time complaining about how the Twins did things differently from the Cardinals (worse), etc.  He showed up and said that he had "cried like a baby" on the flight to Minnesota.  My recollection was that they were thrilled to get anything for him just to get rid of him.

[USAFChief]

I think that this is a great list.  Very interesting.

Concur!

[Rosterman]

Man, considering that only 700-800 guys have played for the Twins at the major league level......half of them weren't really bad. Also, it is amazing how few years one does play with a team or in a career.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Not sure how many, but if there were 819 players who played for the Twins lifetime, I'd put Tommy Herr no higher than 818th. also Ron Davis would clock in somewhere in the 800's on my list, though I kind of feel bad for the guy in retrospect.

[Longdistancetwins]

Not sure how many, but if there were 819 players who played for the Twins lifetime, I'd put Tommy Herr no higher than 818th. also Ron Davis would clock in somewhere in the 800's on my list, though I kind of feel bad for the guy in retrospect.

Yeah, I was surprised at the Ron Davis rating myself, but also pleased that this list has some distance from our gut reactions.

 

Nice job, and, overall, the list leaves me with good memories of guys I cared about.  

[Nate Tubbs Rules]

FYI, There have been 751 total players in the 54 year history of the Twins.  So this list represents about the top40%.  225 of the Twins had less than 50 at bats or innings pitched.  Players who didn't make the cut who pitched/hit the least are Ryan Jorgenson (1 AB) and Fred Bruckbauer (0 IP, no batters retired, infinite ERA).  The hitter and pitcher who played the most and didn't make the cut are Matt Walbeck (946 AB) and Bill Butler (201 IP)

 

I0 year old Nate Tubbs Rules hated Ron Davis for what he did to that 1984 season, but I tried to be a little objective on making the list.  Sometimes I failed (Dan Gladden is still probably too high for what the numbers say (and with no real statistical honor/achievement) for instance but in RD's case, he just had too many good things on his ledger to keep him out of the top150. 

[ashbury]

Not sure how many, but if there were 819 players who played for the Twins lifetime, I'd put Tommy Herr no higher than 818th. also Ron Davis would clock in somewhere in the 800's on my list, though I kind of feel bad for the guy in retrospect.

Difference for me is that The Tall Guy With Glasses never gave me reason to doubt his effort, only his ability to produce under pressure.  (And in fairness Herr's numbers don't suggest he ever dogged it for the Twins either, it was just a matter of perception.)

[Seth Stohs]

Great to see that Anthony Swarzak passed Randy Johnson among all time Twins greats!!

[ashbury]

Great to see that Anthony Swarzak passed Randy Johnson among all time Twins greats!!

Better fastball than Johnson - that's good, right?

[Longdistancetwins]

It's fun to have Aggie and Joe Nathan right next to each other, and the same for the Nettles brothers.  I think Yankee fans would be shocked at how low Graig Nettles was ranked as a Twin.  

[Nate Tubbs Rules]

Other 1-2 combos.

 

Hometown boys Mauer and Hrbek at 5/6.

8th inning Juans Berenguer and Rincon at 87/88

60s CFs Uhlaender and Green at 98/99

Hometown boys part deux with Winfield and Steinbach at 128/129

60s bullpen mates Pleis and Roland at 177/178

game163 heros Casilla/Gomez at 193/194

utility infielders Hocking/Wasthington at 200/201

failed 90s starters Mahomes/Banks 208/209

[Longdistancetwins]

Other 1-2 combos.

 

game163 heros Casilla/Gomez at 193/194

 

Didn't catch that one.  Thanks for reminding me of something to cheer about.