Article: Postseason Review: Josmil Pinto

[stringer bell]

The controversy over Pinto concerns both his offense and his defense. How good a hitter can he be with regular at-bats? He could be very good. He is strong and has demonstrated extra-base power for the Twins in his stints with the club. He also has a good idea of the strike zone and will take a walk. Pinto uses the whole field and has plenty of power to put balls over the fence. It is possible if he were given regular at-bats, he would be in the upper third of catchers offensively.September complaints about Twins lineups centered on two players--Danny Santana and Josmil Pinto. The fans remaining at Twins Daily wanted Santana to get reps at shortstop (with attendent opportunities for Aaron Hicks) and they wanted to see the state of Josmil Pinto's catching ability. The fans were largely disappointed. Santana mostly stayed in center field and Pinto started only eight games at catcher and left one of them before he either hit or caught. We will wait for answers, or at least more definitive evidence, in the spring.

 

For his entire stay with the Twins in 2014, Pinto was a bit of a lightning rod. Many wanted him in the lineup every day either as the DH or catcher. Some are convinced that he can never be a regular catcher because he doesn't have the necessary defensive tools and skills.

 

If anything, this season was evidence that as far as Pinto is concerned it can't be a half-in half-out proposition. Due to injuries, Pinto got a lot of at-bats in April and his hitting was decent. He didn't catch much and but when he did he was noticeably less than adequate behind the plate. This meant fewer games catching, and when everyone got healthy Pinto didn't get many at-bats at DH and was also sub-standard when behind the plate. He was optioned in June, reportedly to work on his defense. Many expected Pinto to be back before September 1st, but he didn't force his way back with his performance in Rochester and Kurt Suzuki had a career year.

 

 

 

Defensively, the slings and arrows come from all directions. In 2014, he was 0-20 throwing out base runners in 2014. He has consistently graded out poorly when it comes to framing pitches. Pinto, after nearly a decade in the organization, has been called lacking in pitch-calling and blocking pitches. That is a whole lot of things to improve upon! In watching Pinto throw, there is no question that his arm is strong enough to stay behind the plate. However, there is also no question that his throwing mechanics were screwed up before he was optioned to Rochester. It is certainly not entirely his fault that he failed to throw out a single base stealer, but on the other hand, he should be in line for more of the blame than any other individual.

 

As for pitch framing, Josmil was the personal catcher for the thoroughly inconsistent Samuel Deduno. If there was one pitcher on the Twins who probably didn't deserve having borderline pitches called strikes due to total unpredictability it was Deduno. It stands to reason that Pinto's pitch framing numbers would be bad. I think game calling and being a coach on the field is in the eye of the beholder. For what it is worth, an ump said it was "night and day" as far as viewing pitches after Pinto returned in September, and Kyle Gibson credited Pinto with calling a good game in both of his last two starts, which were both good starts for Gibson.

 

There is good potential in Josmil Pinto's bat. I don't see anything that precludes him from being at least adequate as a receiver at some point.

 

I do have a point and counter point though. Pinto has been known as a hard worker and no one has questioned his work ethic. However, he has been in the organization since 2006 and he, by all accounts, has quite a ways to go to get to competent as a major league receiver.

 

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[Mike Sixel]

I think this is one reason Gardy is gone.....he refused to play the young players TR handed him in September.

 

Look, I have no idea if Pinto can be good or not, but they'll never find out if he doesn't play. I'd be happy with 100 games for Suzuki, and 62 for Pinto at catcher, with Pinto getting some DH time. That's a nice way to ease him into the league, and should have been done this year imo.

 

BTW, Suzuki is one of the worst pitch framers in the game, IIRC.

[tobi0040]

One of the many reasons why Gardy was let go, no doubt.

[James Richter]

Amen, Mike. Pinto is another guy who gets a new lease on life with Gardy no longer in the dugout. His minor league CS% has been solid (32% for his career down there) so I don't see any reason for long-term concern there. If he can get the other aspects of fielding his position anywhere close to average, the bat is good enough to make him an above-average catcher in terms of net value. And he's got nothing left to prove in the minors. Play the guy!

[Brandon]

I don't hold a lot of stock in pitch framing at this point because of what Twinsgeek wrote about in terms of counts that borderline pitches get called balls and which ones tend to get called strikes.  when those 2 sets of data get brought together then I will have confidence in that stat. 

 

As far a Pinto goes.  If we want to se him as a Catcher he needs to spend time in AAA and work on his game.  If he is to be a bench player he still needs to work on Catching and also 1B and maybe RF or something and except the fact he is a bench player until he learns to Catch better. 

[Boom Boom]

It's a bit ironic that Pinto took a backseat to Suzuki because of pitch-framing and throwing out runners.  Those aren't exactly 'Zuke's strong suits either.

[Winston Smith]

He'll be 26 next spring and have 9 years in the minors. If he isn't ready by now then he likely will never be.

He needs to play on a regular basis for the Twins and either sink or swim. Then we have something or we move on.

[TheDean]

With a new manager coming in, I'll be interested to see if he would ever PH Pinto late in the game without a 3rd catcher.  That's perhaps the biggest issue with Pinto fulfilling the roles of backup catcher and most talented RH power hitter rostered at the same time (IMO, he edges out Plouffe and Dozier, not sure if Sano will be here yet in April 2015).  We know which side of the debate Gardy fell on 99% of the time.

[Bark's Lounge]

I've said something similar to this on other threads in the recent past.

 

Jorge Posada did not become a starter until his age 26-27 season in 1998. That year he had 409PA, almost double his total from his first 2 seasons leading up to that point. Posada if my memory serves me correctly was not a good defensive catcher and never really was more than average at best.

 

I'm not saying that Pinto will become Jorge Posada, but his hit tool is pretty damn good. I can see him being a 20HR, .800+ OPS type of hitter.

 

Right now is not the time to throw in the towel on this still youngish player. I think is safe to say that when we were all 25 going on 26 we still had youthful vigor and a spring in our step.

 

If Pinto doesn't work out, oh well, but if he does get better behind the dish and hits like I think he can, that would be astounding!

 

I would be patient and give him 2 more years before I abandon ship. I'll take a poor man's Posada on my team any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

[bird]

Let's dispense with this fallacy that Gardy refused to play "the younger players" in September. Other than Pinto, which "younger players" are we talking about?  He didn't play Pinto much, and it was hugely upsetting to a lot of you. It's total conjecture on your part if you believe this had anything to do with Gardy's dismissal, and in my opinion, it's neither important or a likely contributor. I also am guessing that most managers would have handed in very similar lineup cards to what we saw in September. Obvious conjecture on my part here too.

 

Why do I think that might be the case? As much as we'd like it to be different, I lean toward the view that the baseball people, and not just Gardy, see Pinto as a poor long-term fit. After nine years in which he's been given every opportunity, it's not conjecture to say the Twins pretty much know what they have, even if some of us don't. It's always curious to me why any of us think that, because WE haven't seen enough of a prospect to draw our own conclusions, that there is some inherent flaw in how said prospect is being evaluated and handled.

 

Can he back our starter up? Maybe. But getting him AB's at DH is perhaps counter-productive given possibly better offensive options. Expecting significant defensive improvement is wishful, wouldn't you say? 

[stringer bell]

While I have mentioned several times that Pinto has been in the organization for most of a decade, he signed with the Twins when he was 16 or 17.  A lot of changes go on between 16 and 25 for most of us.  Pinto wasn't considered much of a prospect until 2012, when he turned a lot of flab in muscle (can't remember for sure, but I think he lost 15 pounds) and started turning on balls.  It seems that the fine points of catching either weren't conveyed to him or he didn't get them. 

 

I like his power, plate discipline and use of the whole field, but going into next season at 26, he really needs to be able to catch acceptably.   

[Bark's Lounge]

While I have mentioned several times that Pinto has been in the organization for most of a decade, he signed with the Twins when he was 16 or 17.  A lot of changes go on between 16 and 25 for most of us.  Pinto wasn't considered much of a prospect until 2012, when he turned a lot of flab in muscle (can't remember for sure, but I think he lost 15 pounds) and started turning on balls.  It seems that the fine points of catching either weren't conveyed to him or he didn't get them. 

 

I like his power, plate discipline and use of the whole field, but going into next season at 26, he really needs to be able to catch acceptably.   

I really hope he is able to catch acceptably in 2015, but if not, would it be fair to say if he starts out poorly, but is able to make a breakthrough with his catching ability in MN or Rochester sometime during the season and gives the "evaluators" reasons to be optimistic about him handling it semi-full time in 2016, that would be okay?

 

Personally, I hope he can be our back-up catcher next season and get 250PA (a few at DH) because his bat can help the 2015 team, but if he is relegated to mostly AAA time and he can show that he can rise to the challenge of being a passable backstop, I can wait until 2016 for him to be the primary catcher at the age of 27.

[tobi0040]

I've said something similar to this on other threads in the recent past.

 

Jorge Posada did not become a starter until his age 26-27 season in 1998. That year he had 409PA, almost double his total from his first 2 seasons leading up to that point. Posada if my memory serves me correctly was not a good defensive catcher and never really was more than average at best.

 

I'm not saying that Pinto will become Jorge Posada, but his hit tool is pretty damn good. I can see him being a 20HR, .800+ OPS type of hitter.

 

Right now is not the time to throw in the towel on this still youngish player. I think is safe to say that when we were all 25 going on 26 we still had youthful vigor and a spring in our step.

 

If Pinto doesn't work out, oh well, but if he does get better behind the dish and hits like I think he can, that would be astounding!

 

I would be patient and give him 2 more years before I abandon ship. I'll take a poor man's Posada on my team any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

My thought was always that gardy stressed defense too much at catcher and ss. I would expect pinto to get more reps at catcher and the sky won't fall. Maybe, just maybe the offense will offset the defense.

[Richie the Rally Goat]

Let's dispense with this fallacy that Gardy refused to play "the younger players" in September. Other than Pinto, which "younger players" are we talking about?  He didn't play Pinto much, and it was hugely upsetting to a lot of you. It's total conjecture on your part if you believe this had anything to do with Gardy's dismissal, and in my opinion, it's neither important or a likely contributor. I also am guessing that most managers would have handed in very similar lineup cards to what we saw in September. Obvious conjecture on my part here too.

 

Why do I think that might be the case? As much as we'd like it to be different, I lean toward the view that the baseball people, and not just Gardy, see Pinto as a poor long-term fit. After nine years in which he's been given every opportunity, it's not conjecture to say the Twins pretty much know what they have, even if some of us don't. It's always curious to me why any of us think that, because WE haven't seen enough of a prospect to draw our own conclusions, that there is some inherent flaw in how said prospect is being evaluated and handled.

 

Can he back our starter up? Maybe. But getting him AB's at DH is the perhaps counter-productive given possibly better offensive options. Expecting significant defensive improvement is wishful, wouldn't you say?

we do have a bit of chicken and egg here. Did Gardy play the younger players, or was he forced to by TR relieving Gardy of Willingham, Correia, Florimon, and not signing a staring CF? Although I think Gardy's preference is the young speedy glove guys, there's no doubt he'd rarher have old speedy glove guys, but old speedy glove guys don't really exist.

[Madre Dos]

OK - we all know that I am prejudice when it comes to "my kids". This is what I know. Josmil is never going to get to be a major league quality catcher if he isn't given major league opportunities. Personally, he is a great guy who knows his way around my pantry and refrigerator with the best of them. Good luck Pinto! I'll see you in March.

[stringer bell]

OK - we all know that I am prejudice when it comes to "my kids". This is what I know. Josmil is never going to get to be a major league quality catcher if he isn't given major league opportunities. Personally, he is a great guy who knows his way around my pantry and refrigerator with the best of them. Good luck Pinto! I'll see you in March.

Nice to hear from you Madre Dos! We met at Ft. Myers last year. I'm mostly with you on Josmil. I sure hope he gets a better chance this year. He certainly is a hard worker and should be able to overcome whatever obstacles that are in front of him.

[Trautmann13]

After nine years in which he's been given every opportunity, it's not conjecture to say the Twins pretty much know what they have, even if some of us don't.

He has been given opportunity, except for regular playing time in a major league uniform. They may "know" what they have; but than again, I 'm sure they "knew" what they had with Gomez, Hardy, and Worley. Those are extremes, yes, but we will never know if Pinto is the next Gomez unless we play him. What we have seen of Josmil, he looks like he can be.

Stringer already mentioned the "night and day" improvement that Pinto reportedly made defensively from April to September.  So when this team is not competing, why not give Pinto his shot, maybe 40% of the starts at catcher? But the fault in Gardy's actions with Pinto late is that if he really did make important strides in AAA that being rewarded with 8 starts is a little ludicrous, especially when he was starting guys like Eric 40 man Fryer instead. Pinto may not be anything, but that's just the thing, MAY. Why not find out for sure before pulling the plug.

[stringer bell]

Fryer started one game after Pinto was promoted. I don't find that excessive at all. Certainly, I would have liked Josmil to start more games behind the plate. As it turned out, the games against non-contenders were a couple series with the Sox and the three-gamer with the D-Backs.

 

Suzuki had a fine year and he had the manager's confidence. There will be a new sheriff in town and Pinto should get a chance to win the confidence of the new guy.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I think Pinto needs to start 50-70 games behind the plate and learn from Kurt a bit.  I'd make sure he's getting regular time at DH or as a PH to keep his bat in the lineup.  His problem isn't his ability to hit, it's his skills behind the plate.  He won't get better at that not playing.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Pinto wasn't considered much of a prospect until 2012   

Mostly right, although Pinto tore up rookie leagues at age 19-20, very much like Eddie Rosario did but without the draft pedigree.  I know that's when he entered my prospect radar, and given the dearth of hitting talent at the catcher position, Pinto was pretty likely to reach MLB after that point, barring injury.

 

And of course, since repeating high-A at age 23, Pinto has been pretty darn steady the last 3 seasons at every level.  Here are his Fangraphs wRC+ values from each of his stops since the start of 2012 (MLB in bold): 136, 153, 152, 124, 168, 131, 101

[hybridbear]

Another article recently referenced Alex Gordon's routine to achieve the defensive excellence for which he is now known. This article states that Pinto has a good work ethic, or at least that he hasn't been called out by the organization for a lack thereof. So, what's the deal then? If he's working hard on his defense then he should be getting better. Why isn't he? Is the problem with the Twins' coaching staff that's teaching him? Is he not as talented as we'd like to believe? Is he not working as hard as we'd like to believe?

 

I was very impressed with the reference to how Alex Gordon works so hard on his defense and I'd like to see the Twins encourage Pinto to go the extra mile in a similar fashion to improve his defense. It could be a focus for him in the offseason and during Spring Training.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Another article recently referenced Alex Gordon's routine to achieve the defensive excellence for which he is now known. This article states that Pinto has a good work ethic, or at least that he hasn't been called out by the organization for a lack thereof. So, what's the deal then? If he's working hard on his defense then he should be getting better. Why isn't he?

Pretty sure most professional baseball players are working hard to get better.  But they can't all get better.

 

At this point, I am more likely to ask, are we judging Pinto's current performance levels fairly?

[Mike Sixel]

How can we know? He barely played in the majors last year.

[h2oface]

I see the future catcher(s) as the Garver/Turner tandem.  Pinto is a placeholder at best, and could be a nice addition as an added chip in a multi-player trade.  I can't see him as anything close to a Gomez evoulution. I would like to see him as the backup, and getting at least two starts a week for through June.  I am open to be surprised.

[Mike Sixel]

I think even those of us that think he can be a starter want that.....for Pinto to catch 62 games or so next year.....I don't think anyone is calling for him to start more than Suzuki right now.

[tobi0040]

I think even those of us that think he can be a starter want that.....for Pinto to catch 62 games or so next year.....I don't think anyone is calling for him to start more than Suzuki right now.

 

I think a year from now we will know if the Santana and Pinto reservations were legit, or a silly Gardy thing.  Regarding someone that said we should trade Pinto, all we have done over the last year is scream THIS GUY CANT CATCH.  So his value can't be too high right now.