Sano to the Outfield

[Linus]

In his recent Q&A with season ticket holders, TR is throwing out the possibility of Sano playing the outfield.  This is somewhat intriguing as the concensus here is that we need another outfielder, that we all assumed would come from free agency.

 

Is Plouffe strong enough at 3rd base to move Sano?  Is Sano ever be good enough defensively at any one position that it really matters where he ends up?  Is Sano at 3rd base substantially more valuable than Sano in left field?

 

What say you TD posters?

[kab21]

I have always thought the Plouffe dislikers that have complained about his defense would just shake their heads when Sano started playing defense at 3rd base. 

 

I approve.

[Steven Buhr]

In my article proposing Sano and Buxton open the season in Minnesota (which has been widely criticized, slashed, spit upon, kicked, bludgeoned and generally trashed), I parenthetically indicated that I was not convinced that Sano moving to the OF and keeping Plouffe at 3B wouldn't be a better decision than the reverse option. So, I was pleased to hear that the GM was open to considering that arrangement, too. An open mind is a positive thing.

 

Sometimes, I feel like people envision Sano as some kind of lumbering giant. Maybe he'll become that as he gets older, but right now he's extremely athletic. You don't know if he can judge a line drive, run it down and catch it until you put him out there and hit the ball to him a few hundred times, but I think it's worth the effort to find out.

[drjim]

Would solve the LF problem pretty quickly. And I wouldn't be surprised if Dozier ends up at 3B when Polanco is ready to replace Plouffe.

[DJL44]

How good was Plouffe at playing 3B when he was 21?

[DuluthFan]

Exactly what I was thinking. It is very rare that a minor leaguer comes to the majors and displaces an established veteran at a position without that veteran being traded. The talk of moving Plouffe to the outfield instead of Sano always irritated me. Sano has to outplay Plouffe at 3rd before he gets the position. The Twins have almost always done it this way. It's the vet's position until they get beat out. Even the call up of Mauer resulted in Przynski being traded away to make room.

 

The same logic should be applied to Santana and Escobar. Escobar is the established vet at shortstop. Santana plays at whatever position (CF)  is available until he beats out Escobar.

[Seth Stohs]

Sometimes, I feel like people envision Sano as some kind of lumbering giant. Maybe he'll become that as he gets older, but right now he's extremely athletic. You don't know if he can judge a line drive, run it down and catch it until you put him out there and hit the ball to him a few hundred times, but I think it's worth the effort to find out.

 

This is the point I always try to make, and part of the reason that I do think that he can stick at third base. First and foremost, none of us saw him throughout 2014, so we don't know where he's at. At spring training, he was 6-4, 258 pounds. Sounds big, and it is, but he isn't the plodding type that I think many envision. He's not Kennys Vargas out there. I've seen him score from first on a double, and he really gets going. I'd compare him to Michael Cuddyer, who wasn't fast, and it took him a while to get going, but once he started, he could move pretty well. 

 

I also will say this, I think that he is athletic enough to play the outfield. As you mention though, it's some of the non-routine types of plays that he hasn't seen often that would be the concern. 

 

But, Plouffe took a major step forward defensively in 2014, and some with the bat. He can play the position as well. He just doesn't have Sano's arm.

[tobi0040]

My buddy listened to the call and said the question was "if Plouffe takes another step forward at 3B and nobody has played well enough to claim LF, would you be open to Sano moving to LF"?

 

So that scenario is a little more specific than Sano to LF...

 

But at the end of the day Plouffe is a keeper in my view, whether that means he stays at 3B or LF (3.5 WAR last year, second to Dozier).  It may just come down to which ever of those two plays a better LF. 

[James]

I like Plouffe at 3b.  I do.  I have no idea how Sano's defense at 3b is.  From what I hear, it's not bad, but not great.  

 

I'm pretty torn on this move though.  I think Sano would be more valuable at 3b, and it would leave room open for Rosario, Kepler, Harrison or Walker to play out there in the future.  Obviously, those guys are all a ways a way, if they ever get here.  It'll make things interesting.

 

That all being said, having too much talent at a position is not a bad problem to have.  We'll just have to see how this goes.  Maybe Sano turns into a very good outfielder... maybe he's better suited for 3b.  Only time will really tell.  I'm all for whatever gets Sano up and playing for the Twins as soon as possible.

[nytwinsfan]

Uggh. I know Sano is decently fast and athletic FOR HIS SIZE, but come on. In all likelihood this is not going to work. Will he be worse than Colabello or Parmalee? Maybe not. But with them and Arcia we already have one of the worst two or three outfield defenses in baseball. Other than maybe starting pitching, it is the Twins biggest problem right now, and Buxton, when he arrives, will only help so much. Sure, I guess it doesn't hurt to give Sano a shot in the outfield for a few games in AA and AAA and see how he does, but I personally am very skeptical. He should continue to play mostly third base and when he is ready, even if that is not until 2016, they should trade Plouffe for pitching. Or they should trade Vargas and move Sano to First/DH. But the Twins will never be a contender with two Arcias in the outfield, and right now, that is what we should assume Sano will be.

[Winston Smith]

This should make the pitchers happy having more infielders playing in the outfield.

[Brock Beauchamp]

How good was Plouffe at playing 3B when he was 21?

Plouffe wasn't projected to look like this guy by the time he was in his prime:

 

http://www.incrediblehulk.me/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/Capture.jpg

[tobi0040]

Uggh. I know Sano is decently fast and athletic FOR HIS SIZE, but come on. In all likelihood this is not going to work. Will he be worse than Colabello or Parmalee? Maybe not. But with them and Arcia we already have one of the worst two or three outfield defenses in baseball. Other than maybe starting pitching, it is the Twins biggest problem right now, and Buxton, when he arrives, will only help so much. Sure, I guess it doesn't hurt to give Sano a shot in the outfield for a few games in AA and AAA and see how he does, but I personally am very skeptical. He should continue to play mostly third base and when he is ready, even if that is not until 2016, they should trade Plouffe for pitching. Or they should trade Vargas and move Sano to First/DH. But the Twins will never be a contender with two Arcias in the outfield, and right now, that is what we should assume Sano will be.

 

I guess I don't understand why Plouffe would be a bad OF.  He played SS until 2011.  The position requiring the most athleticism and quickness.  He played 15 games in the OF the following year. 

 

We are acting like he is going to be another Willingham or Arcia in LF.....can anyone imagine those guys playing short stop?  We would not put those guys at SS in a co-ed charity game.

[Kwak]

"...who plays a better LF?"--No. Nor should that be the deciding factor.  Plouffe's performance and the pitching staff's staff performance will decide.  Plouffe's salary will be increasing dramatically.  If the pitching continues to stink another trade is likely.  Plouffe is not, and won't become an elite talent, paying FA salary dollars to keep at best an above average player, makes no sense if the rotation still stinks.

 

What positon will Sano play in the minors this year?  That will be decisive.  If he stays at 3B--and defends well--he'll stick at 3B.  If Sano "falters" at 3B defensively, then it will be decision time.

[tobi0040]

"...who plays a better LF?"--No. Nor should that be the deciding factor.  Plouffe's performance and the pitching staff's staff performance will decide.  Plouffe's salary will be increasing dramatically.  If the pitching continues to stink another trade is likely.  Plouffe is not, and won't become an elite talent, paying FA salary dollars to keep at best an above average player, makes no sense if the rotation still stinks.

 

What positon will Sano play in the minors this year?  That will be decisive.  If he stays at 3B--and defends well--he'll stick at 3B.  If Sano "falters" at 3B defensively, then it will be decision time.

 

ESPN has Plouffe this year as 70th overall in offensive WAR.

 

http://espn.go.com/mlb/war/leaders/_/year/2014/type/offensive/alltime/false/count/51

 

Fangraphs has him 9th among 3B in total WAR.

 

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=3b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2014&month=0&season1=2014&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&filter=&players=0

 

I am in no rush to trade the guy unless we get really good pitching in return and Sano sticks at 3B.  Those are if's.

[TheLeviathan]

My head may explode if the Twins move Sano off of a premium position before he's even played a game at it just to keep Plouffe in the lineup.

[nytwinsfan]

??? I was talking about Sano in the outfield, not Plouffe. Putting Sano at 3rd and Plouffe in the outfield is another option, albeit one I (and most of the others in this thread) was not talking about.

 

I guess I don't understand why Plouffe would be a bad OF.  He played SS until 2011.  The position requiring the most athleticism and quickness.  He played 15 games in the OF the following year. 

 

We are acting like he is going to be another Willingham or Arcia in LF.....can anyone imagine those guys playing short stop?  We would not put those guys at SS in a co-ed charity game.

[Boom Boom]

Plouffe might be a good defensive LF... but he's already a good defensive 3B. 

 

My suspicion is that Sano is destined for first base, but I don't think it'll ruin him to shag a few fly balls in left, and it wouldn't hurt to... *gasp collectively*... ask Mauer to do that.

[DJL44]

Plouffe wasn't projected to look like this guy by the time he was in his prime:

 

 

Counterpoint

 

http://misterirrelevant.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/cardboard-icons-jim-thome.jpg

[Linus]

I like Plouffe OK and appreciate the improvement he has made.  However, we need to be done with the days of mediocre outfielders, especially if Arcia sticks there.  So, when Sano is ready, Plouffe gets traded for a pitcher or a real outfielder.  No way Sano waits around for the Trevor Plouffe's of this world.

[Physics Guy]

How good was Plouffe at playing 3B when he was 21?

Hard to say since he was playing SS in New Britain at 21.  He did play 25 games at 3B at Fort Myers the year before.  Yes, I know you weren't really looking for an answer, but I thought I'd look it up anyways.

[tobi0040]

I like Plouffe OK and appreciate the improvement he has made.  However, we need to be done with the days of mediocre outfielders, especially if Arcia sticks there.  So, when Sano is ready, Plouffe gets traded for a pitcher or a real outfielder.  No way Sano waits around for the Trevor Plouffe's of this world.

 

If Plouffe does not fetch a good starting pitcher, I would rather keep him and at minimum platoon him.  Between 3B, OF, and Mauer's injuries at 1B he will get reps.

[Physics Guy]

My head may explode if the Twins move Sano off of a premium position before he's even played a game at it just to keep Plouffe in the lineup.

Isn't this pretty much what they did with Santana.  Granted, he was still playing a more challenging defensive position.  What Ryan is talking about is pretty much what Miguel Cabrera did in Florida.  He started in LF because they had a 3B (Mike Lowell).  He spent three season as primarily an OF until he moved back to 3B.  I'm not saying that's what we do, but there are some similarities.  Plouffe is not Mike Lowell, so I doubt it would happen for very long. 

[kab21]

I like Plouffe OK and appreciate the improvement he has made.  However, we need to be done with the days of mediocre outfielders, especially if Arcia sticks there.  So, when Sano is ready, Plouffe gets traded for a pitcher or a real outfielder.  No way Sano waits around for the Trevor Plouffe's of this world.

We need to be done with the days of mediocre defenders and poor defense 3B is going to hurt the team more than a poor LF'er.  He might be athletic but I think his defense at any position will at best be viewed as adequate by some.  Less than adequate by others.

 

My head may explode if the Twins move Sano off of a premium position before he's even played a game at it just to keep Plouffe in the lineup.

I hope the reasoning isn't because of Plouffe but rather that Sano needs considerable time in the minors if he is going to play anything but a brutal 3B at the MLB level.  I think his bat is ready to come up sometime next year but it could be quite awhile for the defense to be ready.  Similar to the decision with Harper a few years ago.

[Mike Sixel]

Get him to the majors the fastest way possible. Elite players deliver value in their early 20s. Why waste his most athletic years in AAA? If that is by moving him to the OF, fine with me.

[tobi0040]

Get him to the majors the fastest way possible. Elite players deliver value in their early 20s. Why waste his most athletic years in AAA? If that is by moving him to the OF, fine with me.

 

According to Fangraphs, the highest WAR at 3B and LF were Rendon and Brantley.  Both had a WAR of 6.6.  Rendon's OPS was .824 and Brantley's was .891. 

 

So getting Sano up as quickly as possible in LF is not exactly equal to waiting an extra two months and getting him in at 3B.

[Badsmerf]

Seth, you commented that Sano has a better arm than Plouffe. I'm pretty sure Plouffe throws in the 90's, so I'm not sure where you're coming from.

 

Anyway. Sano to LF might be a good solution. Either Plouffe or Sano in LF will be average, while I can almost guarantee Plouffe is a better 3b. I don't think Ryan is talking about a permanent move here. In 2015, if Sano's bat is ready, he can play adequate LF then why hold him back? Have him play LF for a season until Kepler or Rosario are ready to come up then you can trade Plouffe before he gets expensive. Or, *gasp* trade one of them to help get the MLB team better. 

 

I really don't think it is a big deal. Rookies should have to earn the right to a certain position and pick-up AB's where they can. I see this a a completely different deal than moving a SS to CF half-way through the year because he's your only option. This is all hypothetical, so unless it happens we can't really complain about it.

[Mike Sixel]

According to Fangraphs, the highest WAR at 3B and LF were Rendon and Brantley.  Both had a WAR of 6.6.  Rendon's OPS was .824 and Brantley's was .891. 

 

So getting Sano up as quickly as possible in LF is not exactly equal to waiting an extra two months and getting him in at 3B.

 

Waiting 2 months is fine. Waiting, as some here want, until he is a good 3B (which may take more than a year) seems like a bad idea. If they think he will be a good 3B this year, after a month or two, fine. If they want him in the minors for a year or more to work on his 3B defense, but he would be a good WAR player in the OF, then I'd rather he be up here. I can see where others would disagree, but wasting an elite players' most athletic YEARS (not months, years) in the in the minors is a bad strategy IMO.

[ALessKosherScott]

Moving the guy coming off Tommy John Surgery on his throwing elbow to a position that relies less on throwing the ball makes perfect sense for the coming season. I question whether Sano is fast enough to be a good outfielder long term though. The question is if he fails do you move him back to third or does he become a 23-year-old DH?

[nicksaviking]

Moving the guy coming off Tommy John Surgery on his throwing elbow to a position that relies less on throwing the ball makes perfect sense for the coming season. I question whether Sano is fast enough to be a good outfielder long term though. The question is if he fails do you move him back to third or does he become a 23-year-old DH?

 

Yeah, I was hoping the discussion was merely thinking about temporarily putting less stress on his elbow.

 

If you move Sano from 3B to the OF, wouldn't that signifiy the end of Arcia?  I don't see this team fielding those two both as corner OF, but I'm nowhere close to being done with Arcia myself.  I think his bat has way too much potential.