Article: Hughes ends season with record. Without bonus?

[Mike Sixel]

He did not earn it....should they pay everyone that came close? that's not how incentives work in companies.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

The other part to this is that he did get a bonus for reaching 180 innings, and a second bonus for reaching 195 innings.

 

Should he get a third bonus for not reaching 210 innings?

 

As others have noted, he made 31 other starts this year. That last out could have come from any of 30 of those (he did have one complete game). 

 

I do think it is a nuanced argument for both sides. It would be a win for Hughes obviously, and possibly a boon for the Twins' chances of landing another free agent if they feel the Twins treat their players better than another suitor might.

[tobi0040]

He did not earn it....should they pay everyone that came close? that's not how incentives work in companies.

 

I think that is an overly simplistic view.  He did pitch well enough to earn it.  If Hughes was like Suzuki and pissed and moaned about playing time all year he would have stayed in for a few batters here and there and got to 210.  If it was not for rain, which is out of his control, he would have earned it.

 

If you look at the intent of the clause, he exceeded the threshold in my opinion about what he gave the Twins this year. 

 

And if you take a step back, you want to keep your employees happy.  Especially one that you will likely engage in long term discussions with, potentially as early as this offseason.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

It kind of speaks to how cautious and quick to give the game over to the bullpen Gardenhire and company are.  Hughes likely had the best season a pitcher has had around here since Johan Santana and he couldn't even get to 210 innings.

Yes, but it was a Career high for innings pitched by Hughes, so it is impressive even coming up short that he did as much as he did.

[sandbun]

He did not earn it....should they pay everyone that came close? that's not how incentives work in companies.

 

Only if they want to keep employees happy, foster a good company environment and, in the Twins' case, undercut negative perceptions of the team and the front office in particular, all while getting some positive press at a time the team could really use it.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The other part to this is that he did get a bonus for reaching 180 innings, and a second bonus for reaching 195 innings.

 

Should he get a third bonus for not reaching 210 innings?

 

As others have noted, he made 31 other starts this year. That last out could have come from any of 30 of those (he did have one complete game). 

I agree with all of this.

 

But I think this all suggests it's also not a big deal to Hughes or potential free agents either way.  It would only matter, in a negative way, if the Twins tried to keep him from getting the bonus, which clearly did not happen.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

Hughes' quote "some things aren't meant to be" - I think it's a good attitude to have, he really surprised everyone in the league with a brilliant season. If the Twins get some decent Outfielders behind him and another starter to share the load with him (that starter might be on the roster already), I bet he gets 210 next year. 

[Willihammer]

No reason to give it to him. FA's don't want to play in MN anyways

[Mike Sixel]

so, should they give Santana more money, since he was way better than expected and outearned his pay? Should they give the ticket people money because they sold tickets in a terrible year, even if they didn't meet their goals?

 

he got 2 bonuses already.....this is a third. Where do you draw the line? 1 out? 4? 10?

[tobi0040]

so, should they give Santana more money, since he was way better than expected and outearned his pay? Should they give the ticket people money because they sold tickets in a terrible year, even if they didn't meet their goals?

 

he got 2 bonuses already.....this is a third. Where do you draw the line? 1 out? 4? 10?

 

Out-earning pay and meeting the intent of a contract clause are two very different things.  If we had an ounce of foresight, this $500K would be a goodwill investment for Hughes and others. 

 

I think even if we are the highest bidder, certain free agents would not sign here because they would be worried the team will not make the investments in other players.  This could be a small step in improving that perception.

Edited September 25, 2014 by tobi0040

[DJL44]

A good way to approach it would be "We feel bad that you fell just short of the final innings pitched incentive and to make it up would like to offer you a two year $25M contract extension."

[Otto von Ballpark]

No reason to give it to him. FA's don't want to play in MN anyways

TR can't even give his incentive bonus money away.

[DAM DC Twins Fans]

If we are trying to sign Lester level free agents we need good PR...just give Hughes the DAM bonus and call it an investment in future free agents.

[KGB]

If Gardy doesn't use him for an out this weekend it's just part of the continue combination of stupidity and stubbornness of this coaching staff.  How does the manager look you in the eyes and says - "I just don't see how I can get you that 1/3 of an inning for your bonus." It's just got to make you want to give that extra effort for this coaching staff.

[DaveW]

They offered Hughes the money, he said no

[KGB]

Man - talk about wanting to get this nightmare over, he would rather pass on half million rather than pitching 1/3 inning.  I've been to Detroit, it's not that bad.

[Twinfan & Dad]

Please. Phil Hughes has performed well beyond expectations. Reward the man for signing a team friendly contract and being the leader of the staff for next few years. 1 more out...PLEASE. Pay the man his bonus.

[DocBauer]

They offered Hughes the money, he said no

This is fact. Fact.

 

It could still change, which is fine if Hughes changes his mind.

 

How did the Twins become the bad guy in this whole deal? Hughes has barely removed the ice pack from his arm, and the Twins are nefarious thieves in the night because they did what? They plotted and planned all season long to deprive him a 1/3 IP here and there just to plan a long rain delay in Hughe's final start of the season that would deprive him of that magical 1/3 of an inning to keep him away from earning a third bonus on top of the millions of dollars the Twins have already seen fit to pay him? I had no clue the Twins had the ability to control Mother Nature. In that case, the hell with the old AC blowing in and out at various key times in the old Metrodome, we need to get Mother Nature to control the winds at TF for when the Twins alternate between batting and pitching.

 

Seriously, what gives? He's been offered a chance to pitch, but declined. And the Twins have made no official announcement as to whether they will pay, not pay, do a donation, or anything else. If you think that little of the Twins, there are a lot of other teams who need pessimistic fans/bloggers.

 

Was that mean?

[Linus]

It's now being reported that the Twins have offered him a chance to pitch an inning this weekend which he declined Classy on both parts especially because took himself out of a couple games early in the year.

[Mike Sixel]

I read Hughes comments as a clear shot at Suzuki playing over pinto. Clear as day.

[nicksaviking]

so, should they give Santana more money, since he was way better than expected and outearned his pay? Should they give the ticket people money because they sold tickets in a terrible year, even if they didn't meet their goals?

 

he got 2 bonuses already.....this is a third. Where do you draw the line? 1 out? 4? 10?

 

Good points.  The thing that makes me hesitate however, is the belief that the Twins offered him a contract that included clauses and bonuses that due to the field managers questionable decision making, made it nearly impossible to reach.  Surely neither agent or GM would have thought that a guy who was healthy all year and threw one of the best season's in Twins history wouldn't be able to meet what would be a totally obtainable goal for a similar pitcher for most other clubs.  Failure to reach 210 innings lied more on Gardenhire than on Hughes.

[Mike Sixel]

So? Gardy didn't do anything to keep him from getting it, he did stuff to win games. If he asked Dozier to bunt late in a game, and he fell a hit short of a bonus, would you pay Dozier?

[Jerr]

It's now being reported that the Twins have offered him a chance to pitch an inning this weekend which he declined Classy on both parts especially because took himself out of a couple games early in the year.

Hughes is happy with how it ended, so let it lay.

He is not a relief pitcher and what if he came in and sucked or hurt himself?

A contract is a contract, Hughes response only grows my admiration towards him!

I am a little sad that this issue has taken the talk away from his incredible performance on a losing ball club. He is a total class act!!!! 

Congrats Mr. Hughes to a fine season!!! And hopefully many more like it!!!

[nicksaviking]

So? Gardy didn't do anything to keep him from getting it, he did stuff to win games. If he asked Dozier to bunt late in a game, and he fell a hit short of a bonus, would you pay Dozier?

 

I'm guessing if Dozier was asked to bunt instead of getting an extra RBI/HR/SB that was going to cost him $500K in a meaningless game, we'd be having this discussion.  Not saying that both are the same or that both situations have the same merit. 

 

But Hughes was 5th in the league in fewest pitches per innings, yet he was only 40th in total pitches thrown despite being healthy all season. Hughes had 30 more innings in him had his total pitch count lined up with his position in pitches per innings.  That's basically an extra inning every game that he got pulled early. 

 

There can be debate whether 240 innings is too much for a pitcher these days, but I don't think there is much debate that Gardenhire prefers his bullpen to the starters in the late innings.  In fairness to Gardenhire, the bullpen has been better than his starters for the last half decade, still, he should recognize when he finally has a starter that is worth giving the opportunity to pitch into the 8th regularly and into the 9th once in a while.

Edited September 26, 2014 by nicksaviking

[Mike Sixel]

Except you are arguing that Gardy's decisions months ago cost Hughes the money, not in the last week or so......

 

the guy has let it go, and said he doesn't deserve the money, not sure why fans can't realize the same thing. 

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

I think the Twins were the right mix of bold and conservative with Hughes' workload this year - he pitched a career high in innings (he's never gone 200 innings before). I think the pitches per inning stat is a pretty good argument, though.

 

Hughes has taken himself out of some games this year, it seems like he's at peace with the season he's had (I mean, he should be pumped after breaking a ML record and having his best season in years).

 

It's too bad that he was a little short, but in the end I don't think it was mis-management. He had a start pushed back due to a rain delay earlier in the month, so he actually could have had another whole start at the end of the season.  

 

Next season, I bet he gets a longer leash. He's proven that he's the lead dog in this rotation.

[Sarah]

I don't blame him for not pitching an extra inning out of the bullpen- this is baseball, he could blow out his arm or get hit in the head by a line drive. He finished the season without being injured, which is no small feat for pitchers these days. And I agree with those who said he shouldn't be paid the bonus- he had to get to a certain amount of innings and he didn't. Paying the money seems like setting a dangerous precedent- what if they have another player next year who is two outs short of a bonus? 

[Beezer07]

As of today, there are 12 pitchers in all of MLB who would have gotten Hughes' 210 IP bonus. Not sure why there's so much handwringing about Hughes getting pulled early and Twins not letting their starters go deeper into games--this is the way SPs are handled now.

[drjim]

So? Gardy didn't do anything to keep him from getting it, he did stuff to win games. If he asked Dozier to bunt late in a game, and he fell a hit short of a bonus, would you pay Dozier?

 

I know this is a hypothetical but an interesting fact is that these types of incentives are not allowed, presumedly for the exact reason you bring up. Only incentives allowed are playing time - IP, PA, games finished, games started, etc.

[DJL44]

A good way to approach it would be "We feel bad that you fell just short of the final innings pitched incentive and to make it up would like to offer you a two year $25M contract extension."

 

3 years $42M will do nicely too