Article: Could Mientkiewicz Be The Next Twins Manager?

[nicksaviking]

Perssonally, I don't think the Twins need to go outside. With Mauer, Mint, Close, etc there are plenty of good candidates available.

It's not that they aren't good candidates, it's that they still are just branches from the same tree.

 

This organization needs new stratagy and that's unlikely by promoting from within.  They've done a lot right, but it's not working now.  I want guys in here who believe that strikeouts are the best option for getting outs, that walks are NOT as bad or worse than giving up a hit, that Bill James is largely correct and that platoons can come in handy.  Let's try those philosophies for a change.

[tobi0040]

I see the candidates interally as Doug and Molitor, and nobody else.  I think we should start framing this as what do you look for in a manager, and which of these guys are the best match.

 

Having never been around either, it is tough to say for sure.  The other caveat is I don't know which is a bigger fan of sabermetrics, platoon theory, etc.  That would go a long way in an interview for me.  Doug is "in charge of a lineup", but he is also tasked with starting the guys and working through things on their way to the big leagues so I don't think he managers the same way he probably would.  For example, if Doug had a guy like Arcia who struggles against lefties in A ball, the Twins would instruct him to play him against lefties and improve.  Not sit him and help the team.

 

Differences:

 

Playing career of 21 years, HOF, 3k hits, first ballot HOF, etc. versus 12 years of OK baseball.  The last several for Doug were platoon/defensive replacement type years.

 

I  like that Molitor was viewed as a smart player whose career exceeded his physical skills. I also like that Molitor basically played everywhere in the diamond outside of catcher.

 

A couple of the other things mentioned are things I don't put much stock in:

 

Doug won a HS championship and broke the bambino curse.  He had 115 plate appearances for Boston and only 9 in the playoffs.  High school baseball is not that important to me.

 

Doug has a great record as a MILB manager. He has been a manager of a franchise with a top 3 farm system, most of those players have played under him.  I think if he is good with minor league players or young players, a minor league manager is probably a great place for him to be.  I don't worry about Molitor  not getting instant respect from day 1 based on his name.

 

"we need fire".   This seems like a temporary thing to me and should not be a huge factor.  Gardy gets ejected as much as anyone and we still lose 95 games.

 

My preference would be Molitor if you can't tell!

 

The other move I would love to see is the Twins bring in an external future GM to work under Terry for a year or two, then take over.  Someone from an organization that has young, smart, quantitative front offices.  Terry is going to retire in a year or two and I would like to see a gradual transition in the meantime and that person working under Terry for a little while would not be a bad thing. 

Edited September 11, 2014 by tobi0040

[Willihammer]

In a word, Ozzie!  Fiery and someone to relate to our young Latino core of prospects.

I wonder why this hasn't gotten more traction since so many people just seem to want "fire." And as you say, with Ozzie there is the bonus of being (cough) "bi-lingual," or at least, 1 3/4 linqual.

[tobi0040]

I wonder why this hasn't gotten more traction since so many people just seem to want "fire." And as you say, with Ozzie there is the bonus of being (cough) "bi-lingual," or at least, 1 3/4 linqual.

 

He has a career winning percentage of 51%.  Lets call it an average season of 83-81.  Apparently just yelling all the time does not translate to wins.

 

The reality is this situation is a little unique.  He is a risk to offend people and be a distraction.  In 9 years as a manager he did not visit the white house due to political concerns, said he loved Fidel Castro, an made very insenstive comments about the GLBT community and race relations.

Edited September 11, 2014 by tobi0040

[Siehbiscuit]

No, I would have preferred he be fired for it.  And saying "professional sports isn't the real world" is ridiculous, because it is the real world, and these are grown men we're talking about, not little leaguers.

 

And that'll be my last post on the subject.

If I start spitting in my office the way players do in theirs (in the field, in the batter's box, on the mound) should they be fired. I probably should stop the snot rockets too! Sports, ISN'T the real world. Throwing baseballs at a defenseless batter is immature, but its also an acceptable practice. Managers screaming at the authority figure from one inch away isn't "real world." Sports and its behaviors are in a different category, so i recommend the "holier than thou" approach stop.

[jokin]

I see the candidates interally as Doug and Molitor, and nobody else.  I think we should start framing this as what do you look for in a manager, and which of these guys are the best match.

 

Having never been around either, it is tough to say for sure.  The other caveat is I don't know which is a bigger fan of sabermetrics, platoon theory, etc.  That would go a long way in an interview for me.  Doug is "in charge of a lineup", but he is also tasked with starting the guys and working through things on their way to the big leagues so I don't think he managers the same way he probably would.  For example, if Doug had a guy like Arcia who struggles against lefties in A ball, the Twins would instruct him to play him against lefties and improve.  Not sit him and help the team.

 

Differences:

 

Playing career of 21 years, HOF, 3k hits, first ballot HOF, etc. versus 12 years of OK baseball.  The last several for Doug were platoon/defensive replacement type years.

 

I  like that Molitor was viewed as a smart player whose career exceeded his physical skills. I also like that Molitor basically played everywhere in the diamond outside of catcher.

 

A couple of the other things mentioned are things I don't put much stock in:

 

Doug won a HS championship and broke the bambino curse.  He had 115 plate appearances for Boston and only 9 in the playoffs.  High school baseball is not that important to me.

 

Doug has a great record as a MILB manager. He has been a manager of a franchise with a top 3 farm system, most of those players have played under him.  I think if he is good with minor league players or young players, a minor league manager is probably a great place for him to be.  I don't worry about Molitor  not getting instant respect from day 1 based on his name.

 

"we need fire".   This seems like a temporary thing to me and should not be a huge factor.  Gardy gets ejected as much as anyone and we still lose 95 games.

 

My preference would be Molitor if you can't tell!

 

The other move I would love to see is the Twins bring in an external future GM to work under Terry for a year or two, then take over.  Someone from an organization that has young, smart, quantitative front offices.  Terry is going to retire in a year or two and I would like to see a gradual transition in the meantime and that person working under Terry for a little while would not be a bad thing. 

 

I think you missed the point about Dougie's resume containing a National HS baseball championship, an ACC title, an Olympic Gold Medal, a World Series ring and FSL League Championship.  It isn't so much what he himself did at each level, it's that he's had a baseball career in which he was trained, coached and played with, or managed, groups of individuals that achieved the highest levels in the game.  That is a fairly uncommon set of successful experiences, and a chance for an injection of a different mindset and set of expectations for a group currently mired in a wholly different culture of (unsuccessful) expectations.  I don't think earning respect will be a problem for Doug.

 

Regarding Molitor, he remains a viable option, but the HOF player pedigree has been no guarantee of managerial success in the past (Ted Williams, Frank Robinson).   And there are extremely few teams that hire HOF players to manage these days- part of that may be that teams are reticent at the prospect of firing a Hall of Fame player, especially if he's managing in his home town.  And HOF credentials seem to not necessarily translate well to both coaching and managing.  Rod Carew had 3000+ hits, 7 batting titles and a career K% of only 9.7%.  Yet Carew was fired as hitting coach by the Brewers after the team finished second from the bottom in batting average, and broke the record for most strikeouts in a season, as well as becoming the first team in MLB history to have more strikeouts than hits.   

 

George Brett resigned shortly after becoming the Royals hitting coach, here was his reasoning for walking away from the game:  

 

"I found out I was a better player, a better hitter, in my opinion, than a teacher," he admitted. "I was not a good mechanical hitting coach."

 

By all reports from those that have worked with him, Molitor has been a good teacher,  but Molitor may still turn out to be a better teacher than a manager.  And at age 58, he also may not have the fire in the belly to put up with the managing grind.  The fact of the matter is though, the best managers have tended to come from those who were lesser players. Perhaps the timing might be right for the Twins to consider promoting Molitor to the managerial chair short-term with Dougie as his second.

Edited September 11, 2014 by jokin

[ScottyB]

It's not that they aren't good candidates, it's that they still are just branches from the same tree.

 

This organization needs new stratagy and that's unlikely by promoting from within.  They've done a lot right, but it's not working now.  I want guys in here who believe that strikeouts are the best option for getting outs, that walks are NOT as bad or worse than giving up a hit, that Bill James is largely correct and that platoons can come in handy.  Let's try those philosophies for a change.

In over 50 years and a dozen managers, the Twins have only gone outside the organzation twice - Bill Rigney and Ray Miller. (and they've only had 2 managers for the last 28 years.)  I don't see them changing course at this late date.  It might nice as a change of pace - but the last guy we brought in from outside the organization was Ray Miller and he was a disaster.

 

 

Playing career of 21 years, HOF, 3k hits, first ballot HOF, etc. versus 12 years of OK baseball.  The last several for Doug were platoon/defensive replacement type years.

I  like that Molitor was viewed as a smart player whose career exceeded his physical skills. I also like that Molitor basically played everywhere in the diamond outside of catcher.

 

The other move I would love to see is the Twins bring in an external future GM to work under Terry for a year or two, then take over.  Someone from an organization that has young, smart, quantitative front offices.  Terry is going to retire in a year or two and I would like to see a gradual transition in the meantime and that person working under Terry for a little while would not be a bad thing. 

 

I'm not against Molitor, however, I wouldn't put much stock in the items you list as qualifications.  Think Ted Williams.  When he was hired by Washington/Texas, they were expecting big things from him.  He was a mediocre manager at best (with the same qualifications you mention for Molly.)

 

I have to disagree with you about the last item.  I don't want to bring someone in to learn from TR, I want the Twins to go in a different direction and not be contaminated by doing things "the Twins way".  I want to bring someone in from outside the organization, but let them start fresh.  See my post about what I would do after TR retires.

 

http://twinsdaily.com/topic/15246-when-tr-retires/

Edited September 11, 2014 by ScottyB

[Kwak]

"... from the outside...".  Absolutely!--But won't happen without a change at the very top.  There is  very good reason why the wins are run like a cult--the Pohlads like that system.  I'm not holding my breath waithing for an explanation why, or for that matter someone from the outside.  A new executive will demand control over the entire organization within the constraints of budget and cosmetic issues.  I just don't see that happening.

[tobi0040]

I think you missed the point about Dougie's resume containing a National HS baseball championship, an ACC title, an Olympic Gold Medal, a World Series ring and FSL League Championship.  It isn't so much what he himself did at each level, it's that he's had a baseball career in which he was trained, coached and played with, or managed, groups of individuals that achieved the highest levels in the game.  That is a fairly uncommon set of successful experiences, and a chance for an injection of a different mindset and set of expectations for a group currently mired in a wholly different culture of (unsuccessful) expectations.  I don't think earning respect will be a problem for Doug.

 

Regarding Molitor, he remains a viable option, but the HOF player pedigree has been no guarantee of managerial success in the past (Ted Williams, Frank Robinson).   And there are extremely few teams that hire HOF players to manage these days- part of that may be that teams are reticent at the prospect of firing a Hall of Fame player, especially if he's managing in his home town.  And HOF credentials seem to not necessarily translate well to both coaching and managing.  Rod Carew had 3000+ hits, 7 batting titles and a career K% of only 9.7%.  Yet Carew was fired as hitting coach by the Brewers after the team finished second from the bottom in batting average, and broke the record for most strikeouts in a season, as well as becoming the first team in MLB history to have more strikeouts than hits.   

 

George Brett resigned shortly after becoming the Royals hitting coach, here was his reasoning for walking away from the game:  

 

 

By all reports from those that have worked with him, Molitor has been a good teacher,  but Molitor may still turn out to be a better teacher than a manager.  And at age 58, he also may not have the fire in the belly to put up with the managing grind.  The fact of the matter is though, the best managers have tended to come from those who were lesser players. Perhaps the timing might be right for the Twins to consider promoting Molitor to the managerial chair short-term with Dougie as his second.

I guess I don't understand the logic that we can dismiss a hof resume because a few others have failed but we should put stock in high school and olympic runs. The sample size of hof players managing is very low. And the sample of managers that are considered good is extremely low.

 

Again it comes down to the criteria. My personal opinion is that in game management is almost identical across managers. The differentiating factor for me is credibility, smarts, teaching, and lineup contruction (platooning). I think molitor has an edge in credibility and baseball smarts. The other two I have no clue

[curt1965]

I've read all the posts on this subject, and while I'm a huge Dougie fan, I'm actually equally opposed to Molitor. But the Twins, if they make a change, will go for Molitor. Why? IMO, they are at least 10, and probably 15 years behind in any progressive thinking. How can any organization with their continued failure rate keep the same basic people managing this organization? Apathy! Even though many of us will continue to express our thoughts on TD and other places, the rest of the fans will continue to give our Twins unconditional love, no matter how bad the product on the field. The new stadium solved any attendance problems for the first few years, but apathy will soon take over. With the TV revenues, there is no incentive for the Twins to care about trivial things like managers. And when they finally do, they will take the conservative route and go with the "name" guy. Molitor offers the organization nothing new: he is Gardy Jr. Can you see him out there arguing when one of his players is involved like Mike Redmond did tonight when Stanton got hit?

Right now they're lost one of their biggest fans-me. I am encouraged about the prospects in the system, but they are just that-prospects. Nothing guaranteed. The only thing that is guaranteed right now is the continued philosophy of management-lets do the same thing, and the fans won't notice.

[jokin]

I guess I don't understand the logic that we can dismiss a hof resume because a few others have failed but we should put stock in high school and olympic runs. The sample size of hof players managing is very low. And the sample of managers that are considered good is extremely low.

 

Again it comes down to the criteria. My personal opinion is that in game management is almost identical across managers. The differentiating factor for me is credibility, smarts, teaching, and lineup contruction (platooning). I think molitor has an edge in credibility and baseball smarts. The other two I have no clue

 

 

 

I haven't suggested that Molitor's resume be dismissed, in point of fact, I have suggested that he indeed is likely the Twins manager in waiting.  He appears to be very sharp and is publicly well-regarded by the players he's worked with.  But the fact that Milwaukee, Toronto or Seattle never saw fit to make him an offer that he couldn't refuse is certainly interesting, and makes one wonder how hot his "hot resume" actually was - the job in Milwaukee has been vacant at least 5 times since Molitor retired, and the Brewers "made up" with him by retiring his number in 1999.  

 

Don't you think, and as I alluded to, that there are major reasons that clubs harbor against the notion, as to why SO few HOF (NOT just a "few others") players go on to have any, let alone successful, managerial careers?- and that that largely accounts for the small numbers of HOFers hired, and that there is some credence to the difficulties that Ted Williams, Rod Carew, Frank Robinson and George Brett had to imparting to others of their own great talents should say something beyond just the anecdotal value.   And you seemingly ignore the fact that lesser, down to even many non-major league, players generally make for most of the successful, and long-tenured managers.  

 

And regarding the criteria you mention in your second paragraph, isn't it most likely that, all other things being even, players who were coached by very successful managers and coaches- all the way from their formative years to their World Series ring, have learned and internalized valuable lessons in individual skill-building, game tactics, roster assembly, handling the pressures successfully and also the successful handling of a diverse set of personalities and skill sets to achieve the ultimate outcome? 

Edited September 12, 2014 by jokin

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

I think you missed the point about Dougie's resume containing a National HS baseball championship, an ACC title, an Olympic Gold Medal, a World Series ring and FSL League Championship.  It isn't so much what he himself did at each level, it's that he's had a baseball career in which he was trained, coached and played with, or managed, groups of individuals that achieved the highest levels in the game.  That is a fairly uncommon set of successful experiences, and a chance for an injection of a different mindset and set of expectations for a group currently mired in a wholly different culture of (unsuccessful) expectations.  I don't think earning respect will be a problem for Doug.

 

 

In this vein, I wonder if Mientkiewicz will be ok with losing for a season or two until everyone he coached in single A makes it up to the big leagues.

If he joins the Twins as the manager in 2015, will his expecatations be reasonable given the level of talent on the team?

Ultimately, I think that unless Terry Ryan is fired, Gardy will finish his current contract. He may have to grudgingly accept a new Pitching Coach and/or some other fresh faces on his staff next year, but I get the feeling he will stick around one more year.

I think if everyone gets promoted with the players in 2015 (meaning coaching staffs move up a level), 2016 is a realistic date for Mientkiewicz to manage the Twins.

[tobi0040]

I haven't suggested that Molitor's resume be dismissed, in point of fact, I have suggested that he indeed is likely the Twins manager in waiting.  He appears to be very sharp and is publicly well-regarded by the players he's worked with.  But the fact that Milwaukee, Toronto or Seattle never saw fit to make him an offer that he couldn't refuse is certainly interesting, and makes one wonder how hot his "hot resume" actually was - the job in Milwaukee has been vacant at least 5 times since Molitor retired, and the Brewers "made up" with him by retiring his number in 1999.  

 

Don't you think, and as I alluded to, that there are major reasons that clubs harbor against the notion, as to why SO few HOF (NOT just a "few others") players go on to have any, let alone successful, managerial careers?- and that that largely accounts for the small numbers of HOFers hired, and that there is some credence to the difficulties that Ted Williams, Rod Carew, Frank Robinson and George Brett had to imparting to others of their own great talents should say something beyond just the anecdotal value.   And you seemingly ignore the fact that lesser, down to even many non-major league, players generally make for most of the successful, and long-tenured managers.  

 

And regarding the criteria you mention in your second paragraph, isn't it most likely that, all other things being even, players who were coached by very successful managers and coaches- all the way from their formative years to their World Series ring, have learned and internalized valuable lessons in individual skill-building, game tactics, roster assembly, handling the pressures successfully and also the successful handling of a diverse set of personalities and skill sets to achieve the ultimate outcome? 

 

I don't know that we have enough information to know whether or not Molitor was offered any of those jobs, if he was interested, or why he wasn't offered if he wasnt.  The link below is a good history on hall of fame and good players and becoming managers.  They point out how very few HOF players have become managers and highlight one of the main reasons as ownership groups/front offices may not want to be overshadowed by a figure larger then they are.  They also mentioned that Ted Williams was a strict disciplinarian and was bound to fail.  They did not highlight what to me seems obvious, the better the player, the more money they made, the less likely they will need to work when they are done playing versus a utility infielder like Ron Gardenhire.

 

But the article did produce a list of "good" MLB players that have been managers a long time and mentioned one recent HOF player (Ryne Sandberg) as a new manager.  The list of good players are Joe Torre, Lou Pineilla, Don Baylor, Alan Trammel, Lemon, Berra, Tony Perez, and Gil Hodges.

 

At the end of the day, I would view a HOF career as a net positive and would give a few points for a better career over someone who did not have as good of a career.  Not the sole reason why I prefer Paul over Doug.  But a factor.

 

I also don't read much into Doug's teams success at multiple levels and the various coaches and how that influences him today.  At the end of the day, both Doug and Paul had multiple coaches influence them and both in some ways probably impacted the players they were, with that, Paul was a better player.  Molly went to Cretin, I am guessing he had really good instruction there and heck, at one point Doug was managed by Ron Gardenhire who we all want to run out of town!  Maybe that cancels out good instruction he received elsewhere.

 

I too agree that he is likely the manager with one major factor for the Twins being name recognition and igniting fans.  The lure of the stadium is wearing off. 

 

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/12481356/

Edited September 12, 2014 by tobi0040

[ericchri]

Anthony Castrovince from "Sports on Earth" a secret Twins Daily reader?

 

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/94257452/ron-gardenhire-twins-transition-13th-season

[Rosterman]

Whatever happens, it should be in the works, NOW. Whatever happens has to reflect where the team expects to be in 3-4-5 years and the management team, including front office, should remain intact thru that period.

[tobi0040]

Anthony Castrovince from "Sports on Earth" a secret Twins Daily reader?

 

http://www.sportsonearth.com/article/94257452/ron-gardenhire-twins-transition-13th-season

 

Which stat do you guys think will play a bigger role in what happens....the fact that only one guy was brought back after 4 90 loss seasons?  Or the fact that the one manager was a Twins manager?  I think the fact that it was the Twins.  I think if Gardy does not resign he will be managing next year.