Love Trade

[TheLeviathan]

The biggest question this team has right now is if Rubio can stay healthy.  At this point I'm starting to lean on "no".

 

Also, I'd take Towns.

[biggentleben]

Five times now, the Timberwolves have had the worst or second-worst record in the league.  Zero times have they had the first pick.

 

My personal biases against Rubio have been clear, and I'd be willing to admit my being wrong when he actually shows me being wrong.  I was completely against the contract.

 

Frankly, I think with Rubio, Pekovic is a better guy to have around.  I think if you're playing with Dieng and a more up-tempo team, LaVine is absolutely the guy you want blowing past the defense in a fast-paced offense because as well as he can pass, Rubio just doesn't have explosiveness with the ball in his hands anymore with all the injuries.

[kab21]

How far is Okafor going to fall?  He has really good potential but just how high can a poor post defender that can't shoot free throws go?  This just seems like the completely wrong era for him to be drafted.  Teams almost definitely need to have at least one of their bigs that can shoot an outside shot or even better 3's to stretch out defenses.  How is that going to work with Okafor not handling things defensively or shooting?

 

Right now I hope the Wolves are not in a position to draft Okafor.  Towns still looks awesome since he does everything you want from a center.  That presents a lineup challenge since Dieng is a rising player and easily one of the top 5 Wolves.  I also like Russell (not really a wing but could) and Winslow more since this is becoming a wing dominated league and the Wolves could use another wing.  I have no idea what to think of Mudiay yet.

 

Rubio presents another issue since he doesn't really fit into the current NBA.  You are limited on what you can do on offense as a team if your defender doesn't respect your outside shot.  I guess the good news (regarding disastrous news) is that the rising cap will make Rubio's new contract a modest sunk cost.

[Shane Wahl]

I would rank them (for NBA purposes):

1. Winslow

2. Towns

3. Russell

4. Okafor (though Okafor could be 1 or 2 IF whoever drafts in that spot needs that exact kind of guy . . . maybe the Knicks do, actually). 

 

Kevin Martin has got to be gone, right? 

 

Rubio is an absolute joke. The horrific T-Wolves PG situation only continues year after year. 

[kab21]

I have never understood why Martin has to be gone.  He is the only true 3 pt threat on the entire team.  Lavine and Wiggins can hit a 3.  Ideally Martin becomes that instant offense 6th man that plays 15-20 minutes but this team is practically devoid of shooters and Martin is the only one.

[biggentleben]

 

I have never understood why Martin has to be gone.  He is the only true 3 pt threat on the entire team.  Lavine and Wiggins can hit a 3.  Ideally Martin becomes that instant offense 6th man that plays 15-20 minutes but this team is practically devoid of shooters and Martin is the only one.

 

And with (hopefully) a big man down low needing some space to work within a half-court set, you want some guys who force the defense outside. Right now, Wiggins and Martin are the only guys defenses have to run out to on the offensive side.

[ALessKosherScott]

My draft board for the Wolves:

 

1. Towns

2. Russell

3. Okafor

4. Cauley-Stein

 

With each one opening up a different Pandora's Box.

 

1. Towns, if the Wolves land one (or two behind Philadelphia), seems the ideal piece. He has the best chance of being a two-way post player, and he opens up options. You can move Dieng for a young stretch four, either someone established or one of the ones that will go 10-20 in the draft (Turner, Looney, Kaminsky, Lyles, Portis). It opens up 31 to take a college kid who can step in now and 36 to grab a Eurostash, if they keep both picks.

 

2. Russell seems to be the safest pick in the draft, even more so than Towns. But the log jam at the wings is rebooted. Lavine and Muhammed become less important long term, and you need to grab the best defensive big available at 31 (Upshaw? Diange?)

 

3. Okafor scares me, but if you're going to miss, miss with the second man in a two-player draft. He doesn't fit into the current NBA play of great post defense and three-point shooting, but maybe the talking heads are right that his defense is fixable. Weirder things have happened. 

 

4. Cauley-Stein solves the real elephant in the room, that Dieng is more the problem than Rubio. For all the blocked shots, opponents shot 60% in the paint when they were guarded by Dieng (compared to 55% with Pekovic). And with the league trending toward using the 5 position to anchor the defense, the question of is Dieng really the future seems a legit one. The problem then rolls out is you need to hope Bjelica can be the stretch four who can rebound that the team needs, because you run low on tradable assests. 

 

My fear is that Flip's draft board goes:

 

1. Okafor

2. Towns

3. Porzingis

[kab21]

Good take on Dieng.  Perhaps I'm too high on him.  I'm not sure I buy the wing logjam problem though.  Are Muhammad or Lavine really answers as starters.  They seem to be role players.  If there is a chance to draft a possible all-star then there isn't a problem.  Unfortunately most of the team is made up of role players that are in starting roles.

[ALessKosherScott]

From a pure PER (which is flawed, but still), Muhammed was the best Wolf last year. Beyond the stats, the best SG/SF lineup they can field is Muhammed and Wiggins, because they bring such different strengths to the floor. Would the line-up be better if Russell can be the next Harden? Definitely. And that's why I like Russell more than Okafor.  But what's there isn't bad when healthy. The problems last year were injuries, bad defense and the giant hole that trading Kevin Love left at the #4.

 

Lavine? He was the problem last year. He should never, ever, ever be allowed to handle the ball again. Ever. When he runs the point, he makes you realize how valuable Rubio's passing and defense are. But there were glimpses, especially toward the end of the year when he was forced to play shooting guard and let Lorenzo Brown run the point. The kid can shoot and get to the rim, and I'm curious if he improves next year with a healthy Rubio and (hopefully) a better back-up PG pushing him into more SG minutes.

 

My two cents is the problems aren't at one to three, they're four and five. If you could walk into a draft where you land Towns or Cauley-Stein plus a better power forward, it's a good day.

 

 

[TheLeviathan]

I'm curious, if Lavine is so awful at the point (not disputing that) - why does Flip insist on playing him there?  We actually cleared the deck to give him minutes there.

[ALessKosherScott]

That I can't answer with anything more than speculation. Maybe he just wanted to see what Lavine would do with the minutes. Maybe he didn't like Mo Williams. Maybe Lavine wanted to prove he could be the next Westbrook. But between the bad turnovers and missed passes, the sooner the experiment ends the better.

[biggentleben]

 

That I can't answer with anything more than speculation. Maybe he just wanted to see what Lavine would do with the minutes. Maybe he didn't like Mo Williams. Maybe Lavine wanted to prove he could be the next Westbrook. But between the bad turnovers and missed passes, the sooner the experiment ends the better.

 

I think LaVine in a Kyrie Irving role could be quite good. Off-ball, allowed to use his athleticism in the flow of the offense rather than being the primary ball handler. Like has been mentioned, using him alongside another point guard works well.

[TheLeviathan]

 

I think LaVine in a Kyrie Irving role could be quite good. Off-ball, allowed to use his athleticism in the flow of the offense rather than being the primary ball handler. Like has been mentioned, using him alongside another point guard works well.

 

Wouldn't that make him the shooting guard by default?  

[biggentleben]

 

Wouldn't that make him the shooting guard by default?  

 

Yes, but technically, Irving is the point guard in Cleveland.  They just have a point forward who does most of the ball handling in their offense.

[kab21]

Can DAngelo Russell be that point guard?  Lavine is intriguing but raw.

[ALessKosherScott]

To me, if you draft Russell more likely than not Lavine becomes superfluous. They're both shooting guards who can distribute a little. Lavine is more athletic. Russell has a higher basketball IQ. But they really can't live together. And that's not a bad thing. Rubio isn't that far off from being the next Jason Kidd, a guy who does everything well except for shoot the ball. And that's fine if you surround him with two or three legit scoring options. 

[kab21]

I think Rubio can work if you have a 4 that can shoot outside to go along with 2 wings that can score.  w/o the outside shooting I'm not sure the interior of the offense really opens up. 

[biggentleben]

Towns plus Wiggins will be so much fun to watch. The Wolves will have 3 #1 overall picks on their roster.

[TheLeviathan]

Very excited about the future of this roster.  

[biggentleben]

 

Very excited about the future of this roster.  

 

Word already out that Flip was talking about how Towns isn't a sure pick, and they like Okafor a lot and consider Russell as highly as the two big men.  I considered that he might be honest for about a second, then I laughed and laughed and laughed.

 

Seriously, though, if Towns isn't the pick, Flip should be out of a job before the 2nd round pick is made.

[kab21]

Flip = Kahn if Towns isn't the top pick.  I'm interested in if and what they can flip Gorgui for.  He's a nice player and young but he doesn't have a role with Towns.  I also am interested if they can land the Euro MVP this offseason.

 

And before anyone says it - Pek can't be traded unless they take back a contract that is just as ugly.  That is kind of self defeating since it would be good for Towns/Pek to split the C role for a season or two.  Gorgui should have some good value though.  They are starting to run out of minutes to play these young players especially if Bjelica comes over.

[TheLeviathan]

Could Dieng be a guy they get back a lottery pick for?  Like Charlotte or Miami?

 

I really struggle to figure out what his trade value might be.

[ALessKosherScott]

Draft Express had an interesting article that mentioned if the Wolves grabbed Towns, they might slot him as a stretch four at first with Dieng and Pekovic manning the center position. Okafor would be the more problematic pairing, and the center you'd want to dump is the one you probably can't in Pekovic. Everything Saunders seems to be saying in the press (we need a two-way player, yadda yadda) seems to be setting the stage for Towns as the pick. But there's that dark concern that guys like Doogie and Zgoda keep saying Okafor.

 

And I have to wonder if the Wolves are targeting moving back into the first round with their seconds (from what Ford is saying) to try and pick up Jones.

[biggentleben]

 

Draft Express had an interesting article that mentioned if the Wolves grabbed Towns, they might slot him as a stretch four at first with Dieng and Pekovic manning the center position. Okafor would be the more problematic pairing, and the center you'd want to dump is the one you probably can't in Pekovic. Everything Saunders seems to be saying in the press (we need a two-way player, yadda yadda) seems to be setting the stage for Towns as the pick. But there's that dark concern that guys like Doogie and Zgoda keep saying Okafor.

 

And I have to wonder if the Wolves are targeting moving back into the first round with their seconds (from what Ford is saying) to try and pick up Jones.

 

That would appease home town fans, but fans were also irate that the club didn't move up in 2000 to get Khalid El-Amin. I like Tyus, but I really thought he should have played a second year of college, and the cost to move to a top 15ish pick, which is where he's projected to go, is too high. If you can swing moving a player for pick sort of thing if Tyus starts to fall, then that's a different story, but I just think you're sacrificing too much for a guy that I don't think is ready to play right away.

[ALessKosherScott]

Canis Hoopus had an interesting read on Jones two weeks ago. To paraphrase it, they didn't think he had a lot of star potential because of his lack of athleticism, but he seemed like a safe bet to be a really good back-up PG. And if you draft Towns plus bring Bjelica over, the next biggest question seems to become who backs up Rubio next year?  

 

Given the predraft rankings (18, 20 and 25), I wouldn't hate it if Saunders packaged #31 and #36 to sneak back into the end of the first round for Jones. But I don't think I'd be one of those calling for him to start either. 

[kab21]

Should the Wolves approach the offseason trying to win games next season?  Or should the FO tank in the offseason?

 

Last year the Thad Young part of the Love trade was criticized and ultimately looks awful (Young didn't fit).  With a healthy(ier) Rubio, Pek, Martin and an untraded Brewer I think they would have won 25-30 games but they unintentionally tanked into the top pick and might have changed the franchise long term.  Obviously it would be nice to redo the Thad Young trade (although the pick is delayed and probably close to #20) but do you absolutely avoid making any moves similar to this during the next offseason. 

 

For example do you do anything to trade martin (even include a 2nd rd pick) and get nothing back.  Or trade nothing for a solid veteran like David Lee to hold down PF for a year.  That would of course depend on what happens with Bjelica and/or Dieng but somebody has to play PF next year.

[biggentleben]

It is a good question, probably one worthy of a new thread, frankly.

 

I am curious about how Towns/Dieng would work together at C/PF, and I'd honestly want to see how that would work before pursuing a PF in free agency.

 

Unless a sweeheart deal comes their way that gives them another first this year without hurting future drafts too much, I'd keep plugging with who they have. I think Bennett is someone who they could use time to see what they have, and having Thad Young around really hurt the chance to get him integrated early, and then he was banged up. He's got a ridiculous amount of talent, even if he wasn't a worthy #1 pick. He, Dieng, and Bjelica could play at the big 3/4 positions.

 

Muhammad is a guy I'm very intrigued by so far. There was a lot to love there last year before his injury. I do think he and Martin are repetitive on the same team, though, so that could allow Martin to be more available.

[TheLeviathan]

I'm not sure how you see Martin and Shabazz as redundant? They seem to bring two ver different skill sets to the team.

[biggentleben]

 

I'm not sure how you see Martin and Shabazz as redundant? They seem to bring two ver different skill sets to the team.

 

I didn't mean in their skillsets, more in that they both have skills to start, but play the same position. Very different skills.  That's the biggest issue, really, using these guys to the best of what they could do would have a very good team. Do you trust Flip to do that?

[TheLeviathan]

Not sure where I stand on Flips coaching ability, but I think Shabazz and Wiggins can play together as SF and SG respectively.