Souhan's Questions

[gunnarthor]

To me, most of the arguments do boil down to the list above. Again, I'd like to hear these logical arguments.

 

You just ignore any points others bring up and keep believing in false narratives, like "Gardy isn't good with young guys", "team is stuck in an old boys club" or "Pro Ryan people are religious zealots." Doesn't really leave any room for discussion.

 

I tried to make my point on Ryan - in his time back it seems like he has an idea of what he wants to do and has pursued it without getting distracted (like taking a college pitcher when the BPA was a HS position player). He hasn't done any dumb "save my job" moves and has made a number of good moves designed to build the foundation of the team. I like what he's doing and it makes sense to me.

[The Wise One]

Give me a break Dave. How long does this pair get to lose before bringing new people in? Putting aside the historically bad playoff record, this team has been terrible for 4 seasons now. You can try to suggest Ryan is building on prospects, but that doesn't mean he gets an endless leash.

 

His leash is as long as Epstien's in Chicago, or when the current wave of prospects quit being that w/o being major league players.

[TheLeviathan]

You just ignore any points others bring up and keep believing in false narratives, like "Gardy isn't good with young guys", "team is stuck in an old boys club" or "Pro Ryan people are religious zealots." Doesn't really leave any room for discussion.

 

I tried to make my point on Ryan - in his time back it seems like he has an idea of what he wants to do and has pursued it without getting distracted (like taking a college pitcher when the BPA was a HS position player). He hasn't done any dumb "save my job" moves and has made a number of good moves designed to build the foundation of the team. I like what he's doing and it makes sense to me.

 

I'm sorry, you switched to Ryan somewhere in there after starting with Gardy.

 

I'm looking for logical arguments on Gardy. I know Ryan and Gardy are attached at the hip, but I'm trying to break that and talk about Gardy. Can you try again please?

 

Ryan has done some good things, I can see the argument for him. Help me on Gardenhire.

[gunnarthor]

Ryan has done some good things, I can see the argument for him. Help me on Gardenhire.

 

I think his teams overachieve with the talent given - both the good ones and the bad ones. I think he does a good job with managing his players and the club house. I don't think his players quit on him, he protects them and I think they respect him.

 

It's hard to place value on managers but Gardy's teams generally outperform their pyth records. A hardball times article a few years back rated him the best manager based on bullpen management, outperforming pyth record and player productivity before and after being managed by him.

[The Wise One]

Part of the abyss is under Ryan. The 2006 and 2007 drafts did not provide much major leauge talent. The scouting director that made those decisions is gone. Have no clue if the scouts are still part of the system. What did Ryan inherit when he took over aftr the 2011 season? A team with virtually no starting rotation, Joe Mauer, Denard Span,Ben Revere and the ghost of Justin Morneau. A AAA team that had as their best to prospects Cole DeVries and Liam Hendricks. A AA team that had Dozier, Parmelee, Benson and Solarte. In other words, not much help on the way either. If you think that the high minors are getting more talented, then Ryan's build from within is working.

[TheLeviathan]

I think his teams overachieve with the talent given - both the good ones and the bad ones. I think he does a good job with managing his players and the club house. I don't think his players quit on him, he protects them and I think they respect him.

 

It's hard to place value on managers but Gardy's teams generally outperform their pyth records. A hardball times article a few years back rated him the best manager based on bullpen management, outperforming pyth record and player productivity before and after being managed by him.

 

I would tend to agree with many of these positives - I do think his teams tend to overperform their overall talent. I do think he's a player's manager. (for veterans or talentless grinders)

 

But what would have to happen to warrant moving on? If these good things are enough, is there ever going to be a valid reason to fire him?

[The Wise One]

The talk on Gardenhire reminds me of the guy who always whined about his wife. "If it is so bad, why not get a new one?" he was asked. He responded with "How do I know it is going to be any different?" Gardenhire has had not the greatest of players to work with. When he has had good players, he has done well. So is the current record due to Gardenhire or the players.

[TheLeviathan]

The talk on Gardenhire reminds me of the guy who always whined about his wife. "If it is so bad, why not get a new one?" he was asked. He responded with "How do I know it is going to be any different?" Gardenhire has had not the greatest of players to work with. When he has had good players, he has done well. So is the current record due to Gardenhire or the players.

 

Sometimes the grass isn't any greener. Sometimes it is. But we have been chewing on the same grass for 12 years and it's been mighty brown for 3.

[Thegrin]

I am unapologetically a Gardy/Andy supporter. I have been reading baseball articles and baseball books for over 60 years. After a while the things that are not said become more important than what is said.

 

2 recent examples are:

#1- Rob Anthony's comments about different players. They were out of tune with what a General Manager (much less an asst. GM) should be saying about his own players. I look to see Anthony gone from the organization in the near future.

#2- All stories about Aaron Hicks indicate that he is not emotionally mature enough to play in the Majors. He seems to lack the focus, the drive and the passion to be a Major Leaguer.

The stories don't outright say it, but the Twins have run out of patience with Hicks and he will not be long for the Twins organization. Lets hope that Hicks can do what Glen Perkins did, and grow up.

 

Which brings us back to Gardy and Andy. They have been manager/pitching coach for a long time. Rarely do you read of player complaints about them. (I discount Worley's comments because of his many interviews while he was a Twin, where his thoughts were mostly either clueless or detached from reality.) Mostly, the professional press writes stories praising Gardy/Andy for their professionalism and how much players enjoy playing for them. I've lived in other cities with Big League teams and usually there is plenty of griping, sniping, backbiting and dissension surrounding a team when it is loosing. There usually are plenty of players ready to gripe, yet there is little of this about the Twins. (Of course I am discounting the anti-Gardy/Andy voices here on TD and in the comments sections of the Trib & PPress.)

This lack of criticism by the players and continuing praise from opponents, agents (see comments about Morales wanting an extension) and Baseball people in general lead me to believe that Gardy & Andy are the right people to be guiding the Twins in these difficult times.

 

Most of all, I realized tonight while the Twins were losing to TB 6-2 in the 8th inning, I continued watching because the Twins "MIGHT" have a rally. They have had so many late inning rallies, that the Twins are worth watching until the last out. This is the most important sign that the Twins are in the right hands. The Twins are not giving up. They fight for every pitch and don't count themselves out until the game ends.

They are young and they don't usually hit well with runners in scoring position, but they do their best. That's all Tom Kelly asked of his players, and it seems to be working well for Gardy also. Before the season writers complained about the lackluster attitude in the Twins dugout during Spring Training. There were complaints about "no life" and players lack of attitude. That can hardly be said now. Now pictures of the Twins dugout are full of happy cheerleading players with Hi-fives all around. Players certainly seem to like playing for Gardy and Andy and that is the best reason to keep them around as long as they want to stay.

 

One final note. Except for 4 game series with Oakland, Detroit, Baltimore and the Angels, the rest of the season is filled with winnable series. The Twins have played most of their tough games. They have faced most of the tough pitchers. They could easily finish in playoff contention, just by winning most of their series for the rest of the season. (See schedule http://twinsdaily.com/content.php/2838-Ticket-King-2014-Schedule) The Twins can win these games and history tells us the Twins will do well within their division, unless they are hit by unexpected injuries and collapses by key players. Despite injuries to Arcia, Willingham, Pelfrey, Nolasco, Mauer, Plouffe, Hicks, Fuld, Nunez, Santana and the disappointments of Bartlett, Kubel, Colabello. Parmalee and Pinto. The Twins have carried on. If misfortunes continue and pitchers get injured, can you honestly say that is Gardy & Andy's fault ? If Willingham and Morales regain form, and if Fuld and Suzuki and Escobar hold to their current form. If Arcia finds his stroke and Colabello and/or Parmalee prove to be power substitutes. and if Plouffe and Dozier hit for a better average during the 2nd half of the season, will you not give Gardy some credit for the improvements ? Or will you point to the schedule and say, "Well, of course they improved. Look at the schedule."

[Thegrin]

If these good things are enough, is there ever going to be a valid reason to fire him?

Nope.

We should leave Gardy in charge until he decides he wants to leave. Just like TK.

We should thank our lucky stars that the Twins have been blessed by 2 such fine managers.

[TheLeviathan]

Nope.

We should leave Gardy in charge until he decides he wants to leave. Just like TK.

We should thank our lucky stars that the Twins have been blessed by 2 such fine managers.

 

I appreciate your honesty on it, that's certainly one approach.

[Highabove]

Would Terry Ryan have signed Miguel Sano?

Bill Smith offered 3.15 million dollars which was a club record for an International Player. Smith had outbid a number of Teams for Sano.

[The Wise One]

Sometimes the grass isn't any greener. Sometimes it is. But we have been chewing on the same grass for 12 years and it's been mighty brown for 3.

 

Rather than eating alfalfa you could be trying to choke down tumbleweed.

 

Is Renteria getting any better results than Sveum? Brad Mills to Bo Porter, is there a difference in outcome there? Jery Manual to Terry Collins for the Mets? The futility continues there. Are the problems the Phillies are having due to Sandburg being there rather than Manual. In case you are missing the point, bad teams are not made better by changing the manager. The Royals won 14 more games last year than the year before. What made Yost a better manager? He had to lean how to spell Santana and Shields for the line up card.

 

5 seasons or so ago, Gardenhire was manager of the year. Other than winning and in some cases no longer being young, what are the players doing differently now?

[The Wise One]

Would Terry Ryan have signed Miguel Sano?

Bill Smith offered 3.15 million dollars which was a club record for an International Player. Smith had outbid a number of Teams for Sano.

Salcedo, Santana, Arcia and Liam Hendricks were all signed bt Ryan as IFA. So it comes down to the money. That 3.15 for Sano was less than the orgional price that Sano expected. There were teams that thought the family was not being truthful about his age. The 3.15 was a bargain compared to estimates, so it would be easy to see Ryan liking a bargain. At the time it was the second largest contract given to a Latin American player. One hopes that he turns out playing better than the 1st place finisher has so far.

[TheLeviathan]

5 seasons or so ago, Gardenhire was manager of the year. Other than winning and in some cases no longer being young, what are the players doing differently now?

 

The problem with your argument is that you have to have the opinion Highabove has - basically Gardy has a job or life. I'm a strong believer that the manager role in baseball is the least important of the four major sports - I think the impact is minimal at best unless the manager is a truly brilliant guy. (Maddon comes to mind)

 

But at some point if you're only willing to cite the roster talent as a reason the team's wins and losses change....then aren't you really giving someone a job for life? You throw results or anything else out the window and chalk that up to talent and you say the guy can coach as long as he wants?

 

I don't think Gardenhire is bad at his job. I think he's run his course as this team's manager and the combination of poor results (that are not all his fault) and a healthy opportunity given without the desired end result makes it acceptable to try a new direction.

 

But I don't believe he should get the job for life - results have to matter, even if it isn't 100% fair.

[The Wise One]

The problem with your argument is that you have to have the opinion Highabove has - basically Gardy has a job or life. I'm a strong believer that the manager role in baseball is the least important of the four major sports - I think the impact is minimal at best unless the manager is a truly brilliant guy. (Maddon comes to mind)

 

But at some point if you're only willing to cite the roster talent as a reason the team's wins and losses change....then aren't you really giving someone a job for life? You throw results or anything else out the window and chalk that up to talent and you say the guy can coach as long as he wants?

 

I don't think Gardenhire is bad at his job. I think he's run his course as this team's manager and the combination of poor results (that are not all his fault) and a healthy opportunity given without the desired end result makes it acceptable to try a new direction.

 

But I don't believe he should get the job for life - results have to matter, even if it isn't 100% fair.

 

Change for the sake of change produces nothing. Reread the manager changes previous mentioned. The problem with your argument is that you argue for change with no real reason. It is not based on the manager skills. It is based on an a notion with no basis. He does not have a job for life. If he does not get performances that the players are deemed capable of by the GM, Gardy is gone. If he makes flawed an uncorrectable decisions, he is gone. The results that are measured are not the wins and losses, but the performance of the people he directs.

That being said, if and when they do fire (push to retire) Gardy, the line will be Gardy has run his course, it is time for a change, etc. The change will occur when they feel that Gardy is not doing an optimal job. If the powers that be decide that Anderson is the problem and Gardy insists Anderson is not, then Gardy is gone.

3 losses in the LDS and 1 WS loss in 6 years with teams that were superior to what the Twins had , I would not put Maddon in the brilliant category.

[TheLeviathan]

But there is a reason...the recent results have been awful.

 

I'd also suggest doing nothing...leaves little room for major changes. Time for someone with new, more modern sensibilities. Gardy has had a great opportunity, the recent results indicate the need for fresh ideas.

 

I thoroughly dislike the idea of dismissing results. I would also suggest that if he is so great at bringing up talent the results shouldnt be his enemy.

[jokin]

3 losses in the LDS and 1 WS loss in 6 years with teams that were superior to what the Twins had , I would not put Maddon in the brilliant category.

 

Your opinion on Maddon is one held only by a very tiny minority. Besides LaRussa, it's hard to come up with better field managers in the 21st Century. And it's very debatable that his teams were superior to what the Twins had.

[Brandon]

I am in the pro Ryan/ Gardy camp. I have Dougie down as Gardy's future replacement. I think the Twins are moving on the right path towards being relevant again. they made good trades. Revere and Span for May and Meyer, Liriano for Escobar, good draft picks (Buxton, Burdi, Gordon, Stewart, Berrios, and more) good international signings (Sano, Polanco, Arcia, Australian lefty whose name I forgot, Pinto [some of those go to Bill Smith], Scrap heap pick ups Guerrier, Florimon, Colabello and Theilbar) Free agent signings Willingham, Morales, Suzuki, Hughes...Nolasco can still be the league average pitcher we thought he could be as a number 3 starter. There is time for that. So the issue is not enough of that talent has made its way to the majors yet. It takes time to properly fix a broken team and that is happening now and Terry Ryan is doing a hell of a good job at it so I don't think he'll go anywhere or should go unless he wants to.

[Mr. Brooks]

The talk on Gardenhire reminds me of the guy who always whined about his wife. "If it is so bad, why not get a new one?" he was asked. He responded with "How do I know it is going to be any different?" Gardenhire has had not the greatest of players to work with. When he has had good players, he has done well. So is the current record due to Gardenhire or the players.

 

 

The season that we got swept by the A's in the first round we had the far superior team. Including, but not limited to, the MVP (Morneau), the AL batting champ (Mauer), the Cy Young winner (Santana), a top 5 closer (Nathan), and a gold glove CF'er in his prime (Hunter).

This doesn't fit the narrative that he overachieves with the talent he's given.

[Badsmerf]

The arguments for Ryan and Gardy are tiresome. If you choose to look past the record of futility in the playoffs, and look past the last 4 seasons of embarrassing baseball, nobody can sway you. People get fired for less. Continuing the good ole boys club only continues the results we've had. Its obvious to me and many others that this regime is not going to bring in a championship. A change needs to be made, because it is necessary.

[The Wise One]

The arguments for Ryan and Gardy are tiresome. If you choose to look past the record of futility in the playoffs, and look past the last 4 seasons of embarrassing baseball, nobody can sway you. People get fired for less. Continuing the good ole boys club only continues the results we've had. Its obvious to me and many others that this regime is not going to bring in a championship. A change needs to be made, because it is necessary.

 

Championships won as a basis to keep a job? There are a whole lot of teams that have been good over the last few years that have not won a championship. Oakland comes to mind. Should they be cleaning house? Bean had a 5 year period where they did not win. Did they can him? No

[The Wise One]

The season that we got swept by the A's in the first round we had the far superior team. Including, but not limited to, the MVP (Morneau), the AL batting champ (Mauer), the Cy Young winner (Santana), a top 5 closer (Nathan), and a gold glove CF'er in his prime (Hunter).

This doesn't fit the narrative that he overachieves with the talent he's given.

 

How many other years was a team patched together? Yep, one year they had one superior pitcher. Takes a few more than that to win a series.

[The Wise One]

Your opinion on Maddon is one held only by a very tiny minority. Besides LaRussa, it's hard to come up with better field managers in the 21st Century. And it's very debatable that his teams were superior to what the Twins had.

 

What 2 years did the Twins have a starting pitching staff that you would trade even up for Tampa's? Zobreist, Longoria, Upton, Crawford, and even Jennings would not be listed as more inferior to the Twins players at the time as compared to the superiority in the pitching

[Guest USAFChief]

If Willingham and Morales regain form, and if Fuld and Suzuki and Escobar hold to their current form. If Arcia finds his stroke and Colabello and/or Parmalee prove to be power substitutes. and if Plouffe and Dozier hit for a better average during the 2nd half of the season, will you not give Gardy some credit for the improvements ? Or will you point to the schedule and say, "Well, of course they improved. Look at the schedule."

I think the question is, what will you say if they don't improve?

[The Wise One]

But there is a reason...the recent results have been awful.

 

I'd also suggest doing nothing...leaves little room for major changes. Time for someone with new, more modern sensibilities. Gardy has had a great opportunity, the recent results indicate the need for fresh ideas.

 

I thoroughly dislike the idea of dismissing results. I would also suggest that if he is so great at bringing up talent the results shouldnt be his enemy.

 

For the last 3 years, since that appears to be the complaint

Were Denard Span and Ben Revere a better players here because of the coaching or other factors?

Has any of the boderline pitchers brought through the last few years caught on anywhere at the major league level? Nobody else's ideas seemed to work.

At the end of the year you can ask has Hughes, Gibson, Escobar, Parmelee, Plouffe, Santana and Dozier made progress. If the GM's answer is no, then it is time for a change.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

The season that we got swept by the A's in the first round we had the far superior team. Including, but not limited to, the MVP (Morneau), the AL batting champ (Mauer), the Cy Young winner (Santana), a top 5 closer (Nathan), and a gold glove CF'er in his prime (Hunter).

This doesn't fit the narrative that he overachieves with the talent he's given.

 

 

How many other years was a team patched together? Yep, one year they had one superior pitcher. Takes a few more than that to win a series.

 

 

 

 

The five players Mr Brooks named above all played together from 2004-2007. There was no patching those years.

[The Wise One]

@ Bombo

25 man roster It was nowhere near static for the other 20 players. IIRC it takes 9 position players as well as 5 starters for the season. There is also a designated hitter. A new 2b and SS every year . Koskie left after 04. They have been trying a new 3b out almost every year since. Radke was pretty much done before the 2006 play off series. Whaat decent number two starter has there been since? Carlos Silva of a career ERA that makes KC look good was the number 3 starter.

You are correct that the 5 played together for those years. Of those year 2006 was the only year that Mauer played in the playoffs. He did not hit very well that year.

[TheLeviathan]

At the end of the year you can ask has Hughes, Gibson, Escobar, Parmelee, Plouffe, Santana and Dozier made progress. If the GM's answer is no, then it is time for a change.

 

Oh, well as long as we cherry pick all the "yes" answers I guess that's great! I mean, if we included Florimon, Nolasco, Deduno, Morales, Mauer, Hicks, Arcia, Kubel, Bartlett, Burton, or Pelfrey that would just be unfair right?

 

It's really hard to take the "Gardy deserves the credit for all improvements" angle seriously when you don't acknowledge the flip side of that.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I tend to be more with Levi here. I'm pretty convinced that Ryan should be the guy in the near term, as he has a track record of doing good rebuilding work and appears to be on the same track with the current version of this product. I'm not as convinced long term, given his track record in free agency; however, this last offseason is making me rethink that to a point. That said, I don't think Ryan will be around much longer for health reasons, so much of this will be a moot point. I have not presently seen much in Anthony that makes me comfortable with the idea that he will make for a good GM. Perhaps he's strong in scouting, but he needs to take a course or two in PR, especially when it comes to how he handles his players in public.

 

Gardy on the other hand, I think has to go. I was very surprised it didn't happen during the offseason. I don't agree with Levi that the position is unimportant. I think managers need to be graded on the same WAR scale everyone else is, as I think they can put a team I in position add a few wins over the course of the season, and I think they can put a team in position to add a couple extra losses too. I think good management will do more than balance out. Gardy has some strange axioms that he sticks to sometimes that drive me nuts, as it puts a team to be in position to lose games. I agree that he hasn't always had the talent to work with, but I don't think he maximizes the talent he's been given, and that's been a pretty consistent critique I've had of him for years now.

 

I'll add though that one of his strengths has been managing a clubhouse. That's another piece that's very underrated. I agree that winning can cure a number of problems, but just look what has happened in Boston, where a team that was a consensus World Series contender at the beginning of the season is only a half game better than us. While winning can certainly help cure those personality differences, I do think that a healthy clubhouse can also encourage winning... It's a two way thing. I do think Gardy does this well, and there are plenty of MLB examples that can back this up.

 

That said, my main concern is his ability to deal with rookies. I've seen plenty of cases where it's clear he doesn't handle rookies as well as he could. Some of this is on them, I won't argue with that, but this team has a bevy of young talent coming up through the pipeline, and Gardy is going to have to deal with a young team. I've seen little indication that he's the guy for this job. I don't think you can dismiss this easily. There's a long track record that goes with it. I'd first and foremost look for a manager that fits that criteria, whether that's Molitor, Dougie M, or a Joe Maddon type outside the org. The next manager of the Twins is going to need to deal with a bunch of mid 20s guys and a few older vets. I don't see Gardy as that guy.