Well, the good news

[Otwins]

This year is much more enjoyable than the last three. At least we can see hope for the future. We may come as close to the amount of losses we have had but there is real progress. I do agree with Doc that keeping Suzuki and at least one of Willingham or Morales makes sense. Twins have the money and they are proven middle of the order hitters. Arcia, Pinto and ALL the rest of the prospects including Buxton and Sano need to force their way into the lineup. I do not agree that the Twins should clear the roster for them. The prospects should force their way on to the roster.

[jorgenswest]

I am glad these guys didn't need to force their way into the line up.

 

Hunter OPS+ 76 after 2 years

Morneau OPS+ 93 in this third year (100 over 3 for a 1B)

Gaetti OPS+ 89 after 4 seasons

Radke 4.84 ERA after first 64 games. Led in HR given up each of first two seasons.

Viola 5.38 ERA after first 56 starts

Santana 6.49 ERA 54 walks in 86 innings

 

The Twins could have spent money on decline phase veterans that would have been likely to out perform any of these players in their early seasons. They could have won more games in those seasons. They didn't spend the money and invested many at bats and innings into these players. It might take 1000 at bats or 50 starts before the investment pays off. In a case like Luis Rivas, the investment may not pay off. When it does, the rewards are worth any extra losses in those rebuilding seasons.

[DocBauer]

I am glad these guys didn't need to force their way into the line up.

 

Hunter OPS+ 76 after 2 years

Morneau OPS+ 93 in this third year (100 over 3 for a 1B)

Gaetti OPS+ 89 after 4 seasons

Radke 4.84 ERA after first 64 games. Led in HR given up each of first two seasons.

Viola 5.38 ERA after first 56 starts

Santana 6.49 ERA 54 walks in 86 innings

 

The Twins could have spent money on decline phase veterans that would have been likely to out perform any of these players in their early seasons. They could have won more games in those seasons. They didn't spend the money and invested many at bats and innings into these players. It might take 1000 at bats or 50 starts before the investment pays off. In a case like Luis Rivas, the investment may not pay off. When it does, the rewards are worth any extra losses in those rebuilding seasons.

 

Jorgen, understand your perspective completely! And I well remember when the Twins cut bait and just promoted all those young guys and struggled with them. If the Twins deep and talented milb system, say two years ago, was where they are now, especially with Sano and Buxton fully healthy, I'd probably be right there with you buddy. Promote them all and run with it.

 

But the Twins, as constructed currently, despite some flaws, are not a bad team. They are competitive, have some talented youngsters, and a group of mid-aged veterans who are solid. I don't think it's a question, with the general makeup of this team, of youngsters having to "force their way" on to the roster. Rather, I think it's a team begining to rebound after three bad and disappointing seasons, begining to show real life and a competitive nature. They've been patient with several youngsters, and continue to retool the roster as they continue along. And we haven't seen all the moves yet, I believe, that this season will bring.

 

As your numbers show, those were very talented ball players who put up winning numbers AFTER a time. Is there anything wrong with constructing a solid overall roster, similar to now, breaking in the youngsters, and still being competitive without just blowing things up?

[jorgenswest]

I don't think they can do both well. They may improve to mediocre but while the young players improve (if given regular at bats and starts) the older players decline and the team stays mediocre.

 

If they are going to play a franchise record number of 30 year olds, they need to be more than competitive. They need to contend because as a group they will decline next year and the younger players will not have been given the time to struggle and improve.

[Mike Sixel]

It does seem odd that they are one of the older teams, and one of the worst teams.....that's a bad combination, imo. while they seem much better this year, outcome wise, they are still one of the worst teams in the league......

[jokin]

Jorgen, understand your perspective completely! And I well remember when the Twins cut bait and just promoted all those young guys and struggled with them. If the Twins deep and talented milb system, say two years ago, was where they are now, especially with Sano and Buxton fully healthy, I'd probably be right there with you buddy. Promote them all and run with it.

 

But the Twins, as constructed currently, despite some flaws, are not a bad team. They are competitive, have some talented youngsters, and a group of mid-aged veterans who are solid. I don't think it's a question, with the general makeup of this team, of youngsters having to "force their way" on to the roster. Rather, I think it's a team begining to rebound after three bad and disappointing seasons, begining to show real life and a competitive nature. They've been patient with several youngsters, and continue to retool the roster as they continue along. And we haven't seen all the moves yet, I believe, that this season will bring.

 

As your numbers show, those were very talented ball players who put up winning numbers AFTER a time. Is there anything wrong with constructing a solid overall roster, similar to now, breaking in the youngsters, and still being competitive without just blowing things up?

 

Doc, the following below is reprinted from another thread, but I think appropriate to contrasting your main thrust. Isn't there some kind of happier roster-makeup-medium between the current Twins and current Marlins?:

 

 

Originally Posted by amjgtIt's one thing to say that Pino isn't the right call because he's 30 and is not "part of the future" and then to argue for Andrew Heaney, but you're using Heaney in the "I don't have any faith in Pino argument"

 

Pino's numbers, across the board, are superior this year and were also superior to Heaney yesterday.

 

Who do I have more faith in next week? Pino. Not Heaney.

Uhhh, Pino was in his 8th year of AA or AAA ball counting this season, are we really sure that being LHP is the only difference? Heaney is 23 and it's reasonably logical that he hasn't yet approached his ceiling, and that isn't just my opinion:

 

ScoutingBook Combine Ranking (6/20/2014): #21http://www.scoutingbook.com/css/img/up195.gif

MLB.com/MiLB.com Season Preview: #29

Scout.com/FOX Sports: #41

ESPN: #34

Minor League Ball (Sickels): #38

Baseball America 2014: #30

Baseball Prospectus: #30

Feel free to put all of your faith into Pino, but there are multiple reasons the Twins have never had a Starting Pitcher make his major league debut at age 30.5 before. You're missing the point of my argument. The Marlins aren't debuting any 30 year old career minor leaguers, they are breaking in a passel-full of quality pitchers with high upside at very young ages- including yesterday, promoting their #1 prospect to the already-good Starting Rotation.

 

FYI, the Marlins currently have 9 pitchers, age 24 or younger on their 25-man or DL. And that total rises to 12 on the 40-man. By contrast, the Twins have- ZERO, ZIP, NADA under-24 pitchers on their 25-man, and all of two, both age 24, May and Tonkin, on their 40-man roster.

[ashbury]

Moderator's note: If this turns into a rehashing of the recent uncivil Pino discussion, there will be repercussions.

[The Wise One]

I'd take the every year for the Twins (99+96+96 is not an easy feat.) But it does not happen with every team. Some teams might have an off year here and there. Very rare to be awful 4 years in a row, even rarer to keep the front office and management intact in these situations and pretty much unique to the Twins, for fans to be ok with the situation.

 

On pace for 88 losses this season, btw. Nothing that does not stink or is remotely excusable (in a valid way) about that.

 

Which team does not go through a stretch were there is not hitting or a strech where the pitching sucks? The OP talked about streches of bad months, not years.

[The Wise One]

I am glad these guys didn't need to force their way into the line up.

 

Hunter OPS+ 76 after 2 years

Morneau OPS+ 93 in this third year (100 over 3 for a 1B)

Gaetti OPS+ 89 after 4 seasons

Radke 4.84 ERA after first 64 games. Led in HR given up each of first two seasons.

Viola 5.38 ERA after first 56 starts

Santana 6.49 ERA 54 walks in 86 innings

 

The Twins could have spent money on decline phase veterans that would have been likely to out perform any of these players in their early seasons. They could have won more games in those seasons. They didn't spend the money and invested many at bats and innings into these players. It might take 1000 at bats or 50 starts before the investment pays off. In a case like Luis Rivas, the investment may not pay off. When it does, the rewards are worth any extra losses in those rebuilding seasons.

 

How many posts were there saying Hicks should be in the minors and not the majors?

You stick with a player you think has upside. That is why they stuck with the previously mentioned players