Yohan Pino to start Thursday / Deduno moved to pen

[tobi0040]

Imagine what we can get for Eric Fryer?....and unlike Pino, he actually has some limited major league experience. Why, this team is just chock full of previously unclaimed reclamation projects with secret trade value- just waiting to be scooped up by other teams.

 

 

Pino, Kris Johnson, and Fryer for Trout and what else from the Angels?

[jokin]

I don't understand the DeVries hate, he did pretty admirably for the Twins in 2012 where he started 16 games, gave them a 4.11 ERA and 100 ERA+, was he ever a long term answer? Of course not, but he filled in just fine.

 

Albers was a nice story and gave the Twins a couple nice starts, what harm did he cause them? (He also had a 100 ERA+ in his time with the Twins)

 

If anything the Twins have been pretty good at figuring out a way to bring up short term stop gaps who will actually be a benefit to the team.

 

I prefer Miami's way of calling up guys who actually offer more than stop-gap benefits. If the team was competing for a division, then guys like Albers and Pino coming up to shore up a short-handed staff makes sense- but since they both have no place in the Twins future, in this case- not so much.

[DaveW]

Exactly what? As we've all-too-frequently seen in the recent past (Albers, Walters, DeVries), you are quoting the least-important, least-predictive stats to construct a house of cards argument.

 

As I mentioned bfore, Albers and DeVries actually had effective results in the majors if you have an ERA+ of 100 as a starter you are basically an average SP, which actually means you are an asset and helping your team.

[DaveW]

I prefer Miami's way of calling up guys who actually offer more than stop-gap benefits. If the team was competing for a division, then guys like Albers and Pino coming up to shore up a short-handed staff makes sense- but since they both have no place in the Twins future, in this case- not so much.

The team is competing for a division, in addition to being "in the hunt" they just dropped a nice chunk of change on Morales.

 

In re: Albers etc, who else would you have preferred called up last year at that point? Gibson/DeDuno etc had there chances as well.

[DaveW]

it seems now settle down this is a spot start comments have come out.

Not true, it has been said by folks on here that if he pitches well then yes, he will earn more starts, but if he bombs his first start then it is highly likely the Twins would bring someone else up.

 

It is very obvious that it is just a stop-gap thing, nobody from the org needs to state it because it is indeed obvious.

[WLFINN]

Pino, Kris Johnson, and Fryer for Trout and what else from the Angels?

 

 

I'll say it here first....gotta throw in Duensing if you want anything of real value

[tobi0040]

Not true, it has been said by folks on here that if he pitches well then yes, he will earn more starts, but if he bombs his first start then it is highly likely the Twins would bring someone else up.

 

It is very obvious that it is just a stop-gap thing, nobody from the org needs to state it because it is indeed obvious.

 

Your first statement is from another planet than your second statement.

 

Second, a quick look through past comments has found you calling a BABIP of .219 lucky and fueling a pitchers performance. Another found that we were not going to get anything but a C level prospect for Suzuki, Willingham, or KC.

 

Today Pino, with a .222 BABIP is "has by far the best numbers" due to his ERA and we are somehow going to get something in return for Yohan Pino after a month if he pitches well.

 

I am sure we could find one where you pointed towards FIP as better than ERA, but this is really a waste of time.

[jokin]

As I mentioned bfore, Albers and DeVries actually had effective results in the majors if you have an ERA+ of 100 as a starter you are basically an average SP, which actually means you are an asset and helping your team.

 

Uhhh, why aren't these assets pitching and helping a team in the major leagues right now?

[Dman]

The logical side of me agree's with Tobi and the group that wants to invest MLB experience in Meyer and May. The sentimental side of me wants to give the long-shot Pino a chance. I am a sucker for the underdog. There is a reason they are called underdogs though, because their chances at sustained future success are slim.

 

Being the logical person I am I should ignore the sentimental side but it is hard for me not to cheer for Pino. I doubt he will have sustained success but at 30 I would like to see him pitch and see what he can do. He never gave up on himself. I think that is worth a chance even if it means M&M have to wait just a little longer.

[DaveW]

Your first statement is from another planet than your second statement.

 

Second, a quick look through past comments has found you calling a BABIP of .219 lucky and fueling a pitchers performance. Another found that we were not going to get anything but a C level prospect for Suzuki, Willingham, or KC.

 

Today Pino, with a .222 BABIP is "has by far the best numbers" due to his ERA and we are somehow going to get something in return for Yohan Pino after a month if he pitches well.

 

I am sure we could find one where you pointed towards FIP as better than ERA, but this is really a waste of time.

 

At what point did I ever say that luck wasn't playing a part in Pino's numbers?

 

At what point did I eve say Pino would bring back a "good" player in a trade? I just simply said if he succeeds in the MLB he would indeed have trade value.

 

I think FIP is a better indicator of future success but it is far from perfect as well. You are distoring this debate, under no circumstance am I saying Pino is better for the Twins long term or more talented then Meyer/May etc. I am saying that he has earned his shot at a spot start on the Twins due to his ERA (which is some luck driven), WHIP (Some luck driven, but his k rate and bb rate help) and his great k/bb rate (is this luck as well?)

[DaveW]

Uhhh, why aren't these assets pitching and helping a team in the major leagues right now?

 

Because they worked perfectly fine as stop gaps and were never viewed or counted on to do more. Im just pointing to the results, you blast the Twins for calling those guys up and giving them starts and I simply point out that they put up a 100 ERA+ which means they provided assets for the Twins while they were up in the majors. What they did or where they are now after the fact has no barring on the fact they gave the Twins good results in their limited time in the majors.

 

If anything this proves the Twins know when to cut bait on pitchers like this, get some good early results out of them, then once the league figures them out/starts hitting em hard, cut em and bring up someone more long term or another stop gap.

[Boom Boom]

I'll say it here first....gotta throw in Duensing if you want anything of real value

 

You could probably trade Duensing for Trout straight up if you also offered to take on the remaining $400 mil or so on Gary Matthews's contract.

[tobi0040]

At what point did I ever say that luck wasn't playing a part in Pino's numbers?

 

At what point did I eve say Pino would bring back a "good" player in a trade? I just simply said if he succeeds in the MLB he would indeed have trade value.

 

I think FIP is a better indicator of future success but it is far from perfect as well. You are distoring this debate, under no circumstance am I saying Pino is better for the Twins long term or more talented then Meyer/May etc. I am saying that he has earned his shot at a spot start on the Twins due to his ERA (which is some luck driven), WHIP (Some luck driven, but his k rate and bb rate help) and his great k/bb rate (is this luck as well?)

 

 

If we are not getting a good player for Pino, why would we plan on bringing him up in hopes of trading him?

 

If luck plays a role, why are you pointing towards ERA and definitively saying he has pitched the best?

 

So FIP is the best predictor, yet we should be OK with promoting a 30 year old with the 4th best FIP on the AAA staff? How has Pino then earned a shot?

[DaveW]

If we are not getting a good player for Pino, why would we plan on bringing him up in hopes of trading him?

 

If luck plays a role, why are you pointing towards ERA and definitively saying he has pitched the best?

 

So FIP is the best predictor, yet we should be OK with promoting a 30 year old with the 4th best FIP on the AAA staff? How has Pino then earned a shot?

Sigh.

 

You aren't bringing him up with the sole purpose of trying to trade him, you are bringing him up because it was his day in the rotation and is a superior option then DeDruno at this point.

 

His ERA, WHIP and k/BB rate show that he has had the best results by far of anyone at AAA, at the end of the day results are what matter and win ball games.

 

I answered your last question with my first answer and my second answer. May and Meyer will be up soon enough, I actually have some insight in to when Meyer will be brought up and why he isn't up yet.. but I am not going to waste a source arguing with you guys on a message board

[tobi0040]

Sigh.

 

You aren't bringing him up with the sole purpose of trying to trade him, you are bringing him up because it was his day in the rotation and is a superior option then DeDruno at this point.

 

His ERA, WHIP and k/BB rate show that he has had the best results by far of anyone at AAA, at the end of the day results are what matter and win ball games.

 

I answered your last question with my first answer and my second answer. May and Meyer will be up soon enough, I actually have some insight in to when Meyer will be brought up and why he isn't up yet.. but I am not going to waste a source arguing with you guys on a message board

 

Forgive me, when someone says "he has trade value", I thought that meant you expected a decent player in return.

 

The ERA line doesn't make sense. If you think FIP is the best projector, a players FIP over the last 3 months is what you should go off, no?

[drivlikejehu]

His ERA, WHIP and k/BB rate show that he has had the best results by far of anyone at AAA, at the end of the day results are what matter and win ball games.

 

What Pino has done in Rochester will win the Twins 0 ballgames. It is of literally no relevance at all.

 

The only thing that matters is how well a pitcher will do in the Majors. There is no reason to think Pino is a better MLB option than the alternatives.

 

Making false statements over and over does not increase their validity.

[DaveW]

Forgive me, when someone says "he has trade value", I thought that meant you expected a decent player in return.

 

The ERA line doesn't make sense. If you think FIP is the best projector, a players FIP over the last 3 months is what you should go off, no?

 

I didn't say it was the best I said it was better, but I also said its not perfect. Luck plays a role in FIP as well, take Trevor May for example: Do you think his 0.36 HR/9 rate is going to continue? Or do you attribute some of that to luck?

[Squirrel]

Moderator note: Let's stop with the 'absolutes' of opinions here. We are all entitled to view this differently, but let's drop the rhetoric and referring to other poster's views as from 'outer space' or '3rd grade like' or whatever. Keep your differences respectful.

[DaveW]

What Pino has done in Rochester will win the Twins 0 ballgames. It is of literally no relevance at all.

 

The only thing that matters is how well a pitcher will do in the Majors. There is no reason to think Pino is a better MLB option than the alternatives.

 

Making false statements over and over does not increase their validity.

 

They aren't false statements and frankly I think you should watch your tone a bit and be respectful of posters who you disagree with.

 

The Twins needed a pitcher to replace DeDuno for tomorrows start, Pino on normal rest etc is a better option then May who just pitched Monday. Meyer is/was not an option to bring up at this point due to other factors.

[drivlikejehu]

Moderator note: Let's stop with the 'absolutes' of opinions here. We are all entitled to view this differently, but let's drop the rhetoric and referring to other poster's views as from 'outer space' or '3rd grade like' or whatever. Keep your differences respectful.

 

There is an important distinction here: not all comments are statements of opinion.

 

It is a fact that, in a small sample, defense-independent metrics are superior to ERA. It has been studied and proven statistically. It does not involve my "view" or "opinion." Likewise, it is a fact that high strand rates are not sustainable. My personal views have nothing to do with it at all.

 

Indeed, I'm not convinced posters should be allowed to argue otherwise. If something is indisputable - meaning if it is equally certain to 2 + 2 =4 - then arguing against it seems like trolling.

[amjgt]

Pino's FIP is actually higher than 3.69 that if you only consider his work as a starter. In 19 relief innings, 29 strikeouts. In 42 innings as a starter, 31 strikeouts, 11 walks. Completely ordinary.

 

It is absolutely false to say he has better stats than May and Meyer. In small samples, fielding independent metrics are superior. And in those, Pino trails other Rochester starters.

 

FIP is not a stat. It's a projection or predictor

 

He has better stats than those other two.

[drivlikejehu]

FIP is not a stat. It's a projection or predictor

 

He has better stats than those other two.

 

Stat, short for statistic. Noun.

 

"a numerical fact or datum, especially one computed from a sample. "

 

FIP is a stat.

[jokin]

Because they worked perfectly fine as stop gaps and were never viewed or counted on to do more. Im just pointing to the results, you blast the Twins for calling those guys up and giving them starts and I simply point out that they put up a 100 ERA+ which means they provided assets for the Twins while they were up in the majors. What they did or where they are now after the fact has no barring on the fact they gave the Twins good results in their limited time in the majors.

 

If anything this proves the Twins know when to cut bait on pitchers like this, get some good early results out of them, then once the league figures them out/starts hitting em hard, cut em and bring up someone more long term or another stop gap.

 

What is it about DeVries 5.42 FIP and now being completely out of baseball that can be classified as "good results"?.... and also, that says having him pitch any innings for a rebuilding team is somehow, some sort of "madskillz stop-gap strategizing" over the rest of baseball? There was nothing in his pedigree before his call-up that suggested he had a prayer of major league success. Why waste a moment of time on a 1 in 10,000 chance of sustained success? A good financial reason to deem this type of move a "success" is by pre-emptively cutting bait on guys like this? Really?

 

And regarding the excuse you have used for not bringing up May, the Twins knew what was coming with Deduno and could have withheld May from his Monday night appearance.

[jorgenswest]

I don't agree about the small sample.

 

FIP uses home run rate which needs a very large sample to stabilize.

 

xFIP uses fly ball rate which does stabilize more quickly but assumes a league average home run rate.

 

SIERRA is promising and adjusts for environment and thus needs a large sample.

 

At this point, looking at anything beyond the basic rate statistics of strikeouts, walks, ground balls and fly balls in the 2014 data has little predictive value. For relievers, strike out rate may be the only data that is useful.

 

The Twins really need to rely of the expertise of their minor league staff and scouts and their observations. There is little to learn from the numbers to help make decisions in a partial season.

[DaveW]

What is it about DeVries 5.42 FIP and now being completely out of baseball that can be classified as "good results"?

 

He started a good number of games for the Twins and gave them a respectable ERA and ERA+ that is the definition of good results.

 

His FIP is/was irrelevant, his results are relevant.

[drivlikejehu]

The point we are apparently missing, jokin, is that luck is relevant, while skill is irrelevant.

 

Though DeVries career numbers are bad across the board. So that one is still hard to follow.

[DaveW]

The point we are apparently missing, jokin, is that luck is relevant, while skill is irrelevant.

 

Though DeVries career numbers are bad across the board. So that one is still hard to follow.

 

You really need to cool it with distorting everything I am saying, you are putting words in my mouth in order to make me look like some sort of idiot. Seriously, drop it.

 

I said DeVries results for the Twins were satisfactory, results are ultimately what wins games. Whether it was 100% or 100% skill the fact is that DeVries giving the Twins an ERA+ of 100 while he was with them, was an asset at the time due to those results (regardless of how he got there)

[JB_Iowa]

The point we are apparently missing, jokin, is that luck is relevant, while skill is irrelevant.

 

Though DeVries career numbers are bad across the board. So that one is still hard to follow.

 

No, the point that you are missing is that the Twins feel that Pino deserves this due to hard work.

 

Per Gardenhire:

 

“(Pino) pitched fantastic in spring training,” Twins manager Ron Gardenhire said. “Locates the ball, has deception. Not overpowering at all: 87-88 miles an hour, big curveball, really changes speeds well, gets hitters out. That’s what baseball is all about. He’s been getting them out.”

 

,,,

 

"He’s done it there at Triple-A now as well as anybody in that league,” Gardenhire said. “Can he do it here? Only one way to find out. We’re going to put him up here and see.”'

 

 

 

Nobody is saying he'll find great success at the ML level. But he has had enough success at AAA to warrant the OPPORTUNITY to show what he can do at the major league level.

 

And frankly, to deny him that opportunity based upon predictors, would be unfair.

 

Personally, I'm wishing him well. Maybe he'll defy the odds and do better than the predictors would indicate. Maybe the predictors will be dead on and he'll be an abysmal failure.

 

Predictors and statistics, however you may want to categorize or define them, are interesting but I'd like to see actual results.

[tobi0040]

You really need to cool it with distorting everything I am saying, you are putting words in my mouth in order to make me look like some sort of idiot. Seriously, drop it.

 

I said DeVries results for the Twins were satisfactory, results are ultimately what wins games. Whether it was 100% or 100% skill the fact is that DeVries giving the Twins an ERA+ of 100 while he was with them, was an asset at the time due to those results (regardless of how he got there)

 

 

I am not trying to distort your words either, but saying someone has the best stats based on ERA, etc., then acknowledging FIP is the best predictor, yet defending the move based on ERA, etc. seems off base to me.

 

If FIP is the best predictor, we should go off of FIP. Plain and simple. Let's not have different goal-posts. Define what is most important, use that as a tool in decision making.

[tobi0040]

 

No, the point that you are missing is that the Twins feel that Pino deserves this due to hard work.

 

Per Gardenhire:

 

“(Pino) pitched fantastic in spring training,” Twins manager Ron Gardenhire said. “Locates the ball, has deception. Not overpowering at all: 87-88 miles an hour, big curveball, really changes speeds well, gets hitters out. That’s what baseball is all about. He’s been getting them out.”

 

,,,

 

"He’s done it there at Triple-A now as well as anybody in that league,” Gardenhire said. “Can he do it here? Only one way to find out. We’re going to put him up here and see.”'

 

 

 

Nobody is saying he'll find great success at the ML level. But he has had enough success at AAA to warrant the OPPORTUNITY to show what he can do at the major league level.

 

And frankly, to deny him that opportunity based upon predictors, would be unfair.

 

Personally, I'm wishing him well. Maybe he'll defy the odds and do better than the predictors would indicate. Maybe the predictors will be dead on and he'll be an abysmal failure.

 

Predictors and statistics, however you may want to categorize or define them, are interesting but I'd like to see actual results.

 

Leave it up to Ronnie. Hard work over a predictor of future success. We are in good hands guys. Pino is going to "battle his tail off", I can just tell.

 

In Gardy's defense, Rudy did get a sack on that one play.