Vance Worley surprised Twins wanted him to lead the rotation in 2013

[jokin]

Please respond to the statement I made when you respond: The outcome of the Revere trade is not clear. I never said it was the Twins' plan for Worley to stink (in fact I believe they thought he would be a bit of a success). A few more wins by Worley and it is likely that: the Twins hang-on to Worley; the fall a slot or two in the Rule 4 draft and Stewart and Gordon are selected before the Twins can select either of the; and the team still stinks--but the FO clings to the fantasy that things are on the right track.

 

My point: More time is required to complete the assessment of the Revere trade.

 

It's pointless to respond to you on this as this wasn't the topic being discussed at the time I posted. You're arguing a macro point, some of which I am sympathetic to, but that wasn't part of the original discussion on the micro point of: Vance Worley- Twins organizational success or failure?

[jokin]

Personally I would be surprised to see Worley work out well for the Pirates long term. This feels a bit like Deja Vu with Liriano. Worley was touted as at tops a number 3 pitcher when we got him and he performed like a AAA pitcher when we started him. The Twins gave him ample time to prove himself and we all hoped to see the best of Worley this year in spring training. After all the prep and hype in the off season he didn't look any better than the year before. Worley seems like a number 5 at best and we have plenty of those already. I would argue we have guys waiting with higher upside than VW.

 

The train-wreck story that is Vance Worley will live in infamy but the Twins will survive it.

 

Good analysis. Worley is what he is, and we pretty much all knew this reality before he was acquired. And yes, this wasn't a crippling move to the Twins fortunes- as one side in this debate wishes to paint the other side as advocating.

[diehardtwinsfan]

I don't think the Twins were counting on him as a 1/2 as much as it was that he was (on paper at least) their first or second best pitcher going into the 2013 seson. To me at least, that's a pretty big jump. What the Twins recognized they needed in 2012 was pitching, so they went out and got it in the form of Meyer, May, and Worley via trade and guys like Stewart, Berrios, and Gonsalves via draft. Worley's job, in my opinion was to fill a spot in the rotation so as to avoid having to use guys like PJ Walters. It didn't work.

 

That said, in my opinion, it was still the right thing to do. May was considered to be the prize of the deal, and most people at the time didn't think they'd get more than that for a what was a pretty marginal talent in Revere. It was the right thing to do... and it remains the right thing to do even if May fails as well.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I don't think the Twins were counting on him as a 1/2 as much as it was that he was (on paper at least) their first or second best pitcher going into the 2013 seson.

 

That's still not a good outcome, when you had the worst starting staff in the league in 2012 and you added 2 new pitchers via free agency. If their Worley expectations weren't really to blame, then their Correia-Pelfrey expectations were, or their Diamond expectations, or just their general willingness to punt the season... nothing about the 2013 MLB starting staff reflects terribly well on the Twins front office.

 

And I say that as a full endorser of the Revere trade too.

[bird]

Your assertion was that teams incrementally rebuild and you included the Yankees as an example. I agree that the Yankees incrementally rebuild as they bring in a mulitple vets each year and suppliment them with younger talent when they are ready.

 

This is not what Houston, Miami and Pittsburgh do. They overhaul the whole operation and stock the 25 man mostly with players younger than 30-years-old, usually much younger. I'm not casting judgment on which method is best, I am arguing against the notion that the Twins are "rebuilding" the same way that every other club does it.

 

Yes, I maintain that the Yanks are changing tactics to at least some extent, although this may reverse itself if they cheat on the international rules as expected by many.

 

But I think you're wrong about the Twins, and I'll ask the question again: aside from Nolasco and Hughes, name even one veteran who has been brought in who figures into the plans long-term. The follow-on question: exactly which minor leaguers are so clearly MLB ready that they're wasting away in AAA? I get your point about wanting youth versus vets. There are some future pieces to the puzzle in AAA that could arguably be on the MLB roster without hurting the team much or hurting their own future development. But aside from a starter or two, who is down there that adds a win or two?

[TheLeviathan]

Levi said that May has been the very definition of dominant, in so many words. And then, in the next breath, declares Worley to be "a mistake". I just don't get it.

 

Worley and May are different people. I am evaluating their contribution to the club separately because they are separate people. Worley was an utter failure, there is really no debate to be had there. I'm shocked you want to continue to maintain otherwise.

 

No one is evaluating the deal as a whole, just the portion Worley contributed.

[Craig Arko]

It's nice to live in a world where people are able to see things differently. I often think how boring it would be if everyone was just like me.

 

Especially Catherine Zeta-Jones. She would make a really bad old guy.

[bird]

Worley and May are different people. I am evaluating their contribution to the club separately because they are separate people. Worley was an utter failure, there is really no debate to be had there. I'm shocked you want to continue to maintain other

 

 

 

 

 

 

No one is evaluating the deal as a whole, just the portion Worley contributed.

 

I apologize then. I misunderstood the limits imposed on the discussion. I was being unreasonable in discussing the trade itself and Worley's contribution to his abysmal showing with the Twins.

[TheLeviathan]

I apologize then. I misunderstood the limits imposed on the discussion. I was being unreasonable in discussing the trade itself and Worley's contribution to his abysmal showing with the Twins.

 

It's fine, but the distinctions were being made pretty clearly. I have a very different opinion of the deal as a whole but Worleys part is written and it isn't in the "win" column for our club.

[jokin]

An obvious observation that a child could make, and this has not been in dispute, so I guess I'm missing your point, jokin. What can be debated are the quality of the decision and, at some point way in the future, the outcome of the trade. Given that many people have been complaining that May is still in AAA, I'd guess a lot of people would predict a good outcome for the Twins on the basis of their expectations for May alone. Levi said that May has been the very definition of dominant, in so many words. And then, in the next breath, declares Worley to be "a mistake". I just don't get it.

 

Originally Posted by birdwatcher

I apologize then. I misunderstood the limits imposed on the discussion. I was being unreasonable in discussing the trade itself and Worley's contribution to his abysmal showing with the Twins.

 

 

 

My previous response was deleted, but it's clear now (and hopefully the coast is clear:th_alc:!), that you were correct in your closing sentence and now you finally get where the other side was coming from. Thanks for sticking with it, I can put up with the recriminations if it leads to TD community harmony in the end.

[twinstalker]

Interesting?

 

What's new? We are talking about the same people who preferred Nishioka & Hoey over Hardy, Capps over Ramos, Young over Garza, LeCroy over Ortiz, had Livan Hernandez as an opening day starter (and Brad Radke over Johan Santana multiple seasons & Pavano over Liriano twice,) discarded Carlos Gomez, Kyle Lohse, R.A. Dickey, Pat Neshek et. al.

 

Why is the Worley situation "interesting"? SOP for them. Could had been worse. They could had anointed Diamond the opening day starter last season.

 

Heck, this is the same people who brought us 99+96+96 and then had the audacity to celebrate Gardenhire's 1000th win in that context. And the worst part about that, is that only a few Twins' fans blinked an eye.

 

The Twins' FO and field management are talking about players' "scholarships", while they are tenured.

Bravo. I thought I was the only one who thought the Twins decision-making has basically been clownish the whole Ryan era, in spite of an award or two and the respect he seems to command. And Gardenhire is maybe worse...another Ryan failure.

 

There's some good early minors' scouting in the the history of Ryan's tenure, but that's really the highlight. A few good moves (Nathan/Liriano, Meyer, and maybe Stewart) pale in comparison to the bad ones and maybe more so, the ones that weren't made when the team had the nucleus to win it all.

[SwainZag]

Bravo. I thought I was the only one who thought the Twins decision-making has basically been clownish the whole Ryan era, in spite of an award or two and the respect he seems to command. And Gardenhire is maybe worse...another Ryan failure.

 

There's some good early minors' scouting in the the history of Ryan's tenure, but that's really the highlight. A few good moves (Nathan/Liriano, Meyer, and maybe Stewart) pale in comparison to the bad ones and maybe more so, the ones that weren't made when the team had the nucleus to win it all.

 

 

Which moves did the Twins miss out on when they had the nucleus to win it all? Sure there have been some bad moves....mainly the Nishioka and Hardy situation. Ramos can't stay healthy in Washington, outside of a few decent years Garza has been a league average starter and you really reaching if we are still going back almost 12 years on Ortiz.

 

Livan was a Twin for 6 months, and he out dueled Jared Weaver in that opening day starter for a win. Opening Day starter means nothing anyways. The discarded Carlos Gomez for JJ Hardy and he didn't start to hit until 3 years after they traded him. Gomez's last line as a Twin is worse than what Hicks is putting up this season. Lohse was a deadline trade in a contract year who didn't become an above average pitcher until he got to St. Louis 3 years later. Dickey was a 34 year old who had never been good before after he the team. This is the first season since leaving the Twins that Neshek has posted a FIP below 4.5.

 

While it's easy to count the "mistakes" why is it seemingly hard to count what they have done right? The found Casey Fien, Caleb Theilbar and Jared Burton off the scrap heap. Even the Liriano trade netted Escobar, whom at 25, is looking like he could become a serviceable major league player. What do the White Sox have to show for that deal?

 

The Willingham free agency deal has worked out. Susuki and Hughes look like steals at what they signed him for at this point. Meyer and May both have huge potential while Span and Revere are struggling mightily for their respected teams. Even right now Gilmartin is looking a lot better than the .200/.230/.270 Doumit is putting up for Atlanta while making 3.5M.

 

I like ripping management as much as the next guy but if the only good moves in the last 15 years you can come up with are (Nathan/Liriano, Meyer, and maybe Stewart) I think you need to look a little deeper.