Wait . . . What did Gardy just say?

[gmarais66]

In 2012, when the Twins dumped Marquis, his stats were:

 

2-4, 8.47 ERA, 49 ERA+, 1.94 WHIP, 14 BB, 12 SO, 34 innings

 

Correia, so far in 2014:

 

2-7, 6.11 ERA, 66 ERA+, 1.55 WHIP, 14 BB, 37 SO, 66.1 innings

 

Among MLB starting pitchers this season, he ranks 192nd in ERA, 174th in WHIP and No. 1 in losses...

 

Correia isn't quite at the Marquis threshold, but when you're talking stats this bad, what's the difference?

[kdrupp09]

Kevin Coreia is not tradeable right now. He has not pitched well enough for any other team to say "Hey, we need that guy". If he was pitching well enough, the Twins would have no reason to trade him in the first place.

 

Keep in mind other teams have minor league systems as well. They would most likely try to go through their own minor leaguers before looking at an outside player. After the other teams have gone through their minor league backups, then we will see the trade rumors float about. That probably won't happen until closer to the trade deadline.

 

Another thing holding the Twins from making a move is their own promotion system. In the past, the Twins have made system promotions near the midway point of the season and near the end of the season. The Twins usually wait until closer to the all star games before making the first promotions. They will want to allow any of their minor leaguers to make their all star games if they are named. The end of the year promotions will also depend upon the playoff situations of their teams.

 

So unless an injury occurs to Coreia, he is in the rotation until the around the all star game or trade deadline at the earliest and the September call up period at the latest.

 

Sadly, I agree with this about Correia, he will likely be in the rotation until at least the trade deadline, if not into August when he might be a waiver trade. Does anyone know if we could get a draft pick for him if he stays all year?

[TheLeviathan]

The fact that he's smart enough not to say this is why he manages a clubhouse as well as any manager in baseball. And what you're suggesting is paramount to throwing his front office under a bus. How stupid would THAT be?

 

Given his ability to retain his job...I'd say not very stupid at all. If losing almost 100 games for three years doesn't get you fired, I doubt one flippant comment to the public will change that.

 

Any way you shake it, his comments about the AAA pitchers was 100% unnecessary.

[bird]

Question for all the "we need depth guys".....

 

IF Diamond is in AAA, and he won't be ruined by rushing him, why is Diamond not up? If he's not good enough to come up and replace the SP with the worst ERA in baseball, why bother keeping him on the 40 man at all at this point?

 

 

 

 

The Twins need good players, not lots of bad players blocking prospects.

 

 

Exactly who has Diamond been blocking, mike? I think you've made a blanket statement here that's not borne out by the facts. Every team makes a flurry of moves at the break, i.e.. a week or so from now, when SS ball starts in earnest. Gilmartin is the only starter who has excelled, and that has been due to a recent surge. So, in a couple weeks, if Diamond is still sucking and Gilmartin is still dealing, I'll join you in complaining about one specific case.

 

Contrary to popular opinion, the Twins do as good a job as any development system out there to advance the the truly standout talent in its system. You won't be able to cite but a couple examples of a dud player blocking a stud prospect where there's no room for disagreement about readiness for a promotion. But there are many many examples of high-ceiling guys playing as the youngest or one of the youngest players in their league. Berrios, Thorpe, Stewart, Buxton, Arcia, Sano....the list goes on and on, mike.

[bird]

Given his ability to retain his job...I'd say not very stupid at all. If losing almost 100 games for three years doesn't get you fired, I doubt one flippant comment to the public will change that.

 

Any way you shake it, his comments about the AAA pitchers was 100% unnecessary.

 

I don't see his comment as one bit flippant, any way you shake it, Levi. What's so wrong with trying to persuade the interested public that clamoring for the head of one guy in favor of an over-hyped prospect is premature? 100% unnecessary perhaps, but hardly a disrespectful or flippant comment.

[Old Twins Cap]

What other team, battling to make the playoffs, would run a Correia out there every five days and know that there is a very small chance of winning that night?

 

It truly is pathetic. The sooner they trade him, the quicker they dump his salary.

 

I went to the game last night not knowing who was starting and I got on the concourse just as our pitcher was warming up. I see its Correia. Groan. Even after Arcia's slam, I turn to the Brewer's fan beside me: "I guarantee you that Gardy will leave Correia in this game until he coughs up the lead."

 

And, it didn't take long.

 

Cross this year off the list.

[bird]

Levi, if you're saying the comment YOU suggest he make is flippant, then yes, we're in total agreement.

[cmathewson]

Are people so sure that May, Meyer, Darnell, or Johnson would come up here and immediately be superior to Correia? My bet is that every one of them would absolutely stink up the joint in most of their first 10 starts if they were brought up today. Maybe in a couple of months they'll be ready to only stink up half their starts. What's the hurry? They're getting great experience right where they are. And by the way, Gardy's description of "up and down" is spot on for all of these guys. It's delusional to think any of them, May included, are absolutely dominating AAA.

 

May 61 IP, 63Ks 1.13 WHIP

Johnson 59 IP, 54 Ks, 1.20 WHIP

Meyer 57 IP, 67Ks, 1.31 WHIP

Darnell 45 IP, 47Ks, 1.24 WHIP

Pino 49 IP, 47 Ks, 0.88 WHIP

 

All of these project better in the majors than Correia. Will they all? Probably not. But the fact that you have five of them (and a sixth, if you count Gilmartin), why not start trying to improve, rather than throwing up your hands and not even trying to get better?

[bird]

I know I'm in the minority, but I think the angst over Correia is overdone just a bit. Johnson has been the most worthy of promotion, followed probably by Darnell and May. I'm just not sure our W-L record would have improved with an earlier move. And if so, by how much?

 

But I agree with jettisoning him. I can't stand watching him pitch. I'd rather watch Butera bat.

[pierre75275]

I would say Scott Diamond is blocking Gilmartin in a HUGE way.

[chopper0080]

I know I'm in the minority, but I think the angst over Correia is overdone just a bit. Johnson has been the most worthy of promotion, followed probably by Darnell and May. I'm just not sure our W-L record would have improved with an earlier move. And if so, by how much?

 

But I agree with jettisoning him. I can't stand watching him pitch. I'd rather watch Butera bat.

 

The question is what are you building towards? If you are building a franchise, then you need to use your seasons to find out what you have in players. We know what we have in Correia and it is not something worth keeping. We don't know how our AAA starters who have been pitching well will respond to the big leagues though they do project well. At worst we get similar production and at best we get an improvement, all while trying to get some answers for 2015. If the idea is getting better as a franchise, continuing to start Correia does nothing towards reaching that goal.

[jorgenswest]

The Rochester guys are going to need to adjust to the majors.

 

They may not perform significantly different than Correia this year in terms of winning. I am still hoping the Twins will begin investing major league innings into Meyer and May soon.

[TheLeviathan]

I don't see his comment as one bit flippant, any way you shake it, Levi. What's so wrong with trying to persuade the interested public that clamoring for the head of one guy in favor of an over-hyped prospect is premature? 100% unnecessary perhaps, but hardly a disrespectful or flippant comment.

 

He's the worst qualifying pitcher in ERA. How bad does he have to be before replacing him is prudent?

 

Gardy and this FO flippantly throw young players under the bus all the time. There is no reason to have them in this conversation AT ALL. Even if you want to be ducky and bunny on it then you say "Hey...I believe in Kevin...we're going to get this turned around"

 

Instead he essentially said "He gets paid too much for me to bench him and those young kids are doing lots of stuff wrong too."

 

It's completely fruitless and devoid of tact and meaning.

[JB_Iowa]

It's completely fruitless and devoid of tact and meaning.

 

Well, if your standard for Gardy-Speak is tactful and meaningful, you're better off not listening. :s-instagib:

[gmarais66]

The Rochester guys are going to need to adjust to the majors.

 

They may not perform significantly different than Correia this year in terms of winning. I am still hoping the Twins will begin investing major league innings into Meyer and May soon.

 

 

It is highly unlikely that they wouldn't be better than Correia... Correia is at the absolute bottom of the Major Leagues as a starter... Both Meyer and May have significantly more talent than Correia, by any standard you can imagine... Would they have some rough patches? Probably... But chances are good they would improve... Every inning Correia pitches is a rough patch and we know he's never going to be any better than this... He stinks... It's a well-established fact...

[oldguy10]

I have followed major league baseball all of my life and correct me if I am wrong on this one - forty to fifty years ago any starting pitcher doing as poorly as Correia would have already been jettisoned for some AAA or AA pitcher that might pitch better than he is currently doing. Even the Twins did so a few years ago with Marquis. What is the difference now in the way the Twins are handling Correia? I just do not understand it especially when the Twins are still very much in the playoff hunt, what am I missing here?

[bird]

I struggle to define "dominating" if May's last two months are not that. Perhaps you could help?

 

Two months (maybe less). Lots of walks. A bit of luck. Still, one could argue he's been dominant. But it's possible that people real close to the situation believe he's a shade less than dominant.

[cmathewson]

I have followed major league baseball all of my life and correct me if I am wrong on this one - forty to fifty years ago any starting pitcher doing as poorly as Correia would have already been jettisoned for some AAA or AA pitcher that might pitch better than he is currently doing. Even the Twins did so a few years ago with Marquis. What is the difference now in the way the Twins are handling Correia? I just do not understand it especially when the Twins are still very much in the playoff hunt, what am I missing here?

 

Blackburn in 2012: 19 GS 53 ERA+ 1.7 WHIP

Correia in 2014: 12 GS 66 ERA+ 1.53 WHIP

 

So Correia has a ways to go to get to Blackburn country. On the other hand, in 2012, we did not have five or six qualified replacements for Blackburn.

[bird]

I have followed major league baseball all of my life and correct me if I am wrong on this one - forty to fifty years ago any starting pitcher doing as poorly as Correia would have already been jettisoned for some AAA or AA pitcher that might pitch better than he is currently doing. Even the Twins did so a few years ago with Marquis. What is the difference now in the way the Twins are handling Correia? I just do not understand it especially when the Twins are still very much in the playoff hunt, what am I missing here?

 

I've followed baseball since 1961, and there have been plenty of Terry Felton types. This generally happens because replacements aren't available. I understand the impatience to make a move, since we have what appear to be good alternatives, but I also can accept the possibility that giving Correia every last chance to right the ship may not be so ridiculous. Maybe they see things that lead them to believe the AA guys would struggle here, or maybe they they think Correia isn't that far from getting on track to where he was last year, when we would have been pleased with him as our 5th best starter.

 

ANyway, back to what Gardy said. I believe most fans, like me, would regard his comments as having been fairly innocuous, a little informative about the alternatives, and and not at all disparaging about the guys in AAA.

[Guest USAFChief]

I wonder if Gardy wasn't still a bit touchy over getting questioned post game about sending Correia out for the sixth. As I understand it he was rather short with the beat reporters when the subject came up.

[jokin]

Two months (maybe less). Lots of walks. A bit of luck. Still, one could argue he's been dominant. But it's possible that people real close to the situation believe he's a shade less than dominant.

 

And those people real close to the situation have proven in the recent past that they are masters at 'shaded" obfuscation, too...

[jokin]

Well said. You don't have to expect him to insult Correia, but there is zero reason to mention the AAA guys in the process.

 

My best guess is Gardy did have one reason why he responded in that way, I would bet he's bombarded with off-camera questions on when this or that AAA guy is getting the call-up. This cuts that whole topic off at the quick.

 

And it seems clear that this is one area where Gardy has zero say on personnel decisions and defaults to the party line, much like his comments in the wake of Nishioka being forced back into the lineup for the Nishi swan song tour.

[TheLeviathan]

Two months (maybe less). Lots of walks. A bit of luck. Still, one could argue he's been dominant. But it's possible that people real close to the situation believe he's a shade less than dominant.

 

Fine....but why throw him under the bus? It's hypocritical to say "Gardy shouldn't be expected to call out Correia" and then he literally does the same thing just moments later about a bunch of guys he's not even seeing every day!!!!

 

You want him to back Correia? Fine....he didn't even do that. He talked about his payroll number and then dogged some important prospects. It's indefensible as a tactic and incredibly poor personnel relations.

[TheLeviathan]

And it seems clear that this is one area where Gardy has zero say on personnel decisions and defaults to the party line, much like his comments in the wake of Nishioka being forced back into the lineup for the Nishi swan song tour.

 

But it's times like this that muddle the notion we often hear that Gardy has last say on the 25 man roster. This non-defense of starting Correia sounds forced because he'd rather not be doing it. So it appears that control might not really be there. (And then there are situations like Bartlett that just scream Gardy...so hell if I know)

 

Either way, it's his job to field those questions in a responsible way. That's what being the manager partly entails. (And if he's going to be irresponsible...I wish he was harsher on the veterans and not on the kids as he typically is)

[Deduno Abides]

I chalk this up to Gardy being Gardy, defending a struggling vet publicly.

 

I hope no one in the front office listens.

 

I don't mind publicly defending a struggling vet (at least not that much - I wouldn't mind if Gardy said something a little different, like "We're paying him a lot of money and have a lot of expectations for him. He knows we have those expectations, he shares those expectations, and we believe he will get it done.")

 

However, what I do mind is, in contrast, the long-time criticism of struggling younger players, many of whom with more talent and upside than the struggling veterans. Sometimes this criticism is done directly by Twins on-field or upstairs management, and sometimes it is done through favored proxies in the press corps. It seems to be in contrast to the style of teams like Tampa, Texas and Oakland, who have had good success at plugging in new players. The criticism of young players also seems to delay or prevent their success. (For another recent local example of publicly criticizing young players, see Smith, Tubby.)

 

In summary, I don't mind publicly defending a struggling veteran, even if he's struggling to achieve his usual mediocre results, but I really don't like the contrasting behavior of publicly criticizing struggling young players.

[Thrylos]

I'd feel better if Gardy said "interestingly, if you trust fip.

 

Are you sure that Gardy does not think that Fip is the first name of the T-wolves new (old) coach?

[Mike Sixel]

If people think leaving KY in the rotation is a good idea, fine with me. I have no interest in debating this anymore. Good luck winning those games. If the argument is that young players struggle when they first come up, that seems like an argument for calling them up sooner, so that next year, they are good.

[Thrylos]

If people think leaving KY in the rotation is a good idea

 

Um. I suspect that this was a Freudian slip...

[DocBauer]

25 and 21 when someone else starts the game besides Correia? WOW! I doubt any of us were aware of that until just now. Any way you want to play it, that's a pretty bold number that's hard to argue with. Before I say any more, please let me be clear about two things.

 

1) I didn't hear Gardy's comments. I didn't hear the tone of his voice. I also don't know if he was upset, goaded, tired, or anything else. I only have the words to read.

 

2) Nothing mean or personal, but I don't want Correia pitching for the Twins.

 

That being said, I really don't understand any fuss made over Gardy's comments. Rather, I see reactions to his comments being interpreted by devoted and sometimes frustrated and impatient fans. I mean, really, break it down. What did he say that is in any way inaccurate?

 

Is Correia currently part of the rotation? Yes. Is he being paid to do so? Yes. Will he be paid even if the Twins cut bait tomorrow? Yes. All reality until otherwise. Defending a veteran and a nice guy? Maybe. Might also be a blunt motivation signal to Correia to earn his keep.

 

He's aware of the guys in AAA and where they are? God, I sure hope he is! If he isn't getting updates and scouting reports then there is a serious dysfunction somewhere. The guys in AAA have had their ups and downs? No matter talent, projectables and quality seasons, is there something disparaging in this comment? No. It's simply the truth about a group of talented youngsters, chiefly May, Meyer and Darnell in their first or full AAA action. About a month and a half worth of AAA to be precise. Simply reading boxes and TD game reports will show you there is greatness with at least a little inconsistency here and there.

 

Long term are these guys all probably better than Correia? Absolutely! No question! And I can't wait to see them! But as Duluth fan pointed out, the Twins traditionally make mid-season promotions for their prospects, sometimes later. Is pitching the balance of June, or so, going to do anything to damage the development of these guys? Or might they get more starts, more innings, smooth out some things, gain even more confidence?

 

After three lousy and disappointing seasons, the Twins are trying to build on that 25-21. They are in rebuild, and they know it. And they know Correia isn't part of the future. There will be promotions and changes coming. I think they are simply trying to be competitive best they can, continue to build something, and are hesitant to just jump ship and flail the remainder of the season by just plugging in young rookies for the sake of playing them. But more to the point, I simply don't see anything in Gardy's words that are inflammatory unless you want to read them that way.

[howeda7]

Sorry, I don't get the outrage on this. The decision to eat the contract and cut him is on the GM, not Gardy. He probably shouldn't have phrased it that way, but if you expected him to even start to throw Corriea under the bus, that was never happening.