LEN3 reports that Fuld has turned the corner

[ScrapTheNickname]

Hicks is 24. He has a lot of time. Send him to AAA. Give him a year, or two, or three to figure it out. If he doesn't, DFA him.

 

Kubel needs to be DFA now, right now. (I was very much in favor of giving Kubel a chance this season but clearly he's finished.)

 

Opinions are a dime a dozen, and I've just given you two.

[stringer bell]

I know you hate Hicks more than any player in Twins history, but let's be real. Santana needs to play everyday, at shortstop. He's not a center fielder and it makes no sense to try to make him one. It is harder for a shortstop to learn center field at the major league level than it is for a switch hitter to learn how to hit right handed exclusively at the major league level. Fuld and Hicks should platoon in center until they have a better solution.

Robin Yount. A lot of high profile guys have moved to the outfield, not necessarily center field from other positions. Dale Murphy won gold gloves and MVPs and he was previously a catcher. Most good utility guys start in the infield and learn to be outfielders--Cesar Tovar, Tony Phillips. Pete Rose spent years in the outfield after being a second baseman. With a little effort, I'm sure I can find many more who have converted from infield to outfield and a bunch who have specifically gone from shortstop to center field. As far as switch hitters going exclusively righty--Victorino and that was originally because of an injury.

 

The larger point is that Hicks has a year to a year and a half at most to establish himself as a contributing center fielder. Even under optimum conditions, I would say the odds are against Hicks. Trying to make the transition to hitting righty only makes him establishing himself within the time frame I suggested nearly impossible. There are reinforcements for the corners and one of them has had a very nice return to the team this week. By now, only the rosiest of optimists can envision Aaron Hicks being a regular on a contending Twins team two years hence.

[jorgenswest]

Fine and dandy. But why rather pointedly beat the dead horse in the post-game presser?

 

We'd have to ask our manager.

 

Joe Mauer injury his back mysteriously and misses several days with only respectful comments from our manager. Aaron Hicks injurs his back stealing a home run and helping us win a ball game and he is ridiculed having missed two starts.

[cmathewson]

Robin Yount. A lot of high profile guys have moved to the outfield, not necessarily center field from other positions. Dale Murphy won gold gloves and MVPs and he was previously a catcher. Most good utility guys start in the infield and learn to be outfielders--Cesar Tovar, Tony Phillips. Pete Rose spent years in the outfield after being a second baseman. With a little effort, I'm sure I can find many more who have converted from infield to outfield and a bunch who have specifically gone from shortstop to center field. As far as switch hitters going exclusively righty--Victorino and that was originally because of an injury.

 

The larger point is that Hicks has a year to a year and a half at most to establish himself as a contributing center fielder. Even under optimum conditions, I would say the odds are against Hicks. Trying to make the transition to hitting righty only makes him establishing himself within the time frame I suggested nearly impossible. There are reinforcements for the corners and one of them has had a very nice return to the team this week. By now, only the rosiest of optimists can envision Aaron Hicks being a regular on a contending Twins team two years hence.

 

Yount was an established major league shortstop before making the transition. And Santana is no Robin Yount.

 

The one case in which a player has given up switch hitting recently was a success. Therefore, it is almost impossible that another player could be successful making this transition. Great argument.

 

Obviously, Hicks is a lightening rod for a lot of people around here. I just want to remind everyone that he was a top-rated prospect who has struggled with one aspect of his game throughout his career: hitting left handed. I'm sure it will take time. But it is not impossible. At any rate, it's way too early to give up on him based on one week's worth of play exclusively right handed, in a week when he was out for two games with a sore back, which he hurt when landing on it after robbing a home run.

 

I am an optimist. But I am not the rosiest of optimists. Another great argument, the classic straw man.

[Guest USAFChief]

 

However, I think the quote came up first in pregame. I interpreted it as a during batting practice when discussion with Gardy about his back with Gardy. He wasn't sure about facing breaking balls and Gardy made a line up change. I inferred that it was because of his back and adjusting to a breaking ball. Gardy could have still joked that he could ask the Yankees to not throw breaking balls. He did take him out of the line up.

I obviously don't know for sure, but I also feel there's some miscommunication going on about Gardy's quote, and my bet is LENIII is the reason for that.

[cmathewson]

Robin Yount. A lot of high profile guys have moved to the outfield, not necessarily center field from other positions. Dale Murphy won gold gloves and MVPs and he was previously a catcher. Most good utility guys start in the infield and learn to be outfielders--Cesar Tovar, Tony Phillips. Pete Rose spent years in the outfield after being a second baseman. With a little effort, I'm sure I can find many more who have converted from infield to outfield and a bunch who have specifically gone from shortstop to center field. As far as switch hitters going exclusively righty--Victorino and that was originally because of an injury.

 

The larger point is that Hicks has a year to a year and a half at most to establish himself as a contributing center fielder. Even under optimum conditions, I would say the odds are against Hicks. Trying to make the transition to hitting righty only makes him establishing himself within the time frame I suggested nearly impossible. There are reinforcements for the corners and one of them has had a very nice return to the team this week. By now, only the rosiest of optimists can envision Aaron Hicks being a regular on a contending Twins team two years hence.

 

Just to put a finer point on it, you argue that Santana can make the transition because one (HOF) player did. Then you argue that Hicks cannot make the transition because only one (non-HOF) player did. Either way, the argument from one case is weak. But isn't odd to you that you can use the same argument to support opposite conclusions?

[cmathewson]

I obviously don't know for sure, but I also feel there's some miscommunication going on about Gardy's quote, and my bet is LENIII is the reason for that.

 

Yes. This is episode 1678 in the continuing saga of LENIII quoting someone out of context and calling it a scoop.

[jokin]

I obviously don't know for sure, but I also feel there's some miscommunication going on about Gardy's quote, and my bet is LENIII is the reason for that.

 

Yes. This is episode 1678 in the continuing saga of LENIII quoting someone out of context and calling it a scoop.

 

Chief and Christy, I don't know about the pregame quote, but I do know that the Strib turned the corner on over-the-top, critical coverage of Hicks and the CF situation- from first, Reusse, then LEN, and then Scoggins- in quick succession after the Giants series.

 

But then, there's no mistaking what Gardy said on-camera in the post-game interview, and it doesn't portend well for Hicks' future with the Twins.

[cmathewson]

Chief and Christy, I don't know about the pregame quote, but I do know that the Strib turned the corner on over-the-top, critical coverage of Hicks and the CF situation- from first, Reusse, then LEN, and then Scoggins- in quick succession after the Giants series.

 

But then, there's no mistaking what Gardy said on-camera in the post-game interview, and it doesn't portend well for Hicks' future with the Twins.

 

Well, I'm sure Gardy is not happy about the situation. But the player will determine his own future with the team. If hitting right handed exclusively clicks, he'll have a future in the game. If it doesn't, he won't. What Gardy says from day to day has little impact. He's known for wild changes in his sentiments. He's not known for staying true to his word when things change on the field of play.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

We'd have to ask our manager.

 

Joe Mauer injury his back mysteriously and misses several days with only respectful comments from our manager. Aaron Hicks injurs his back stealing a home run and helping us win a ball game and he is ridiculed having missed two starts.

 

Bumping this. This hits at a core issue.

 

Fuld goes on the 7 day concussion and is permitted as much comfort and time as possible, allowed to wait until he has several consecutive symptom free days before resuming baseball activities.

 

Hicks comes off the 7 day concussion and a week later, his work ethic is questioned.

 

Anyone care to clarify this?

[Guest USAFChief]

Chief and Christy, I don't know about the pregame quote, but I do know that the Strib turned the corner on over-the-top, critical coverage of Hicks and the CF situation- from first, Reusse, then LEN, and then Scoggins- in quick succession after the Giants series.

 

But then, there's no mistaking what Gardy said on-camera in the post-game interview, and it doesn't portend well for Hicks' future with the Twins.

Just to be clear...I don't disagree that Hicksie is on thin ice right now, and might be in Rochester the day Fuld comes off the DL. My point is I don't think it's because he asked not to see any breaking balls from the coach standing behind a screen throwing BP 50 ft from the plate. That guy isn't throwing any breaking balls. My guess is LENIII got the context or nuance wrong in his reporting.

 

For the record, I'd still let Hicksie play CF over all current Twins options (including Fuld), but I certainly understand why others might feel differently. I'd also have Santana in Rochester playing SS every day, but that's a different thread.

[jokin]

Just to be clear...I don't disagree that Hicksie is on thin ice right now, and might be in Rochester the day Fuld comes off the DL. My point is I don't think it's because he asked not to see any breaking balls from the coach standing behind a screen throwing BP 50 ft from the plate. That guy isn't throwing any breaking balls. My guess is LENIII got the context or nuance wrong in his reporting.

 

For the record, I'd still let Hicksie play CF over all current Twins options (including Fuld), but I certainly understand why others might feel differently. I'd also have Santana in Rochester playing SS every day, but that's a different thread.

 

And I'm not "defending" the reporting, it's clear the Strib is on a mission to prove a point, whatever that may be. But Gardy repeated the "story" verbatim in the post-game. Why? As I said previously, the tone made anyone who heard it automatically uncomfortable, it seemed unnecessarily derisive, like mocking a sick child after he wet the bed.

[Guest USAFChief]

And I'm not "defending" the reporting, it's clear the Strib is on a mission to prove a point, whatever that may be. But Gardy repeated the "story" verbatim in the post-game. Why? As I said previously, the tone made anyone who heard it automatically uncomfortable, it seemed unnecessarily derisive, like mocking a sick child after he wet the bed.

IMO, another data point confirming my belief that the Twins should have changed managers last winter.

[70charger]

Bumping this. This hits at a core issue.

 

Fuld goes on the 7 day concussion and is permitted as much comfort and time as possible, allowed to wait until he has several consecutive symptom free days before resuming baseball activities.

 

Hicks comes off the 7 day concussion and a week later, his work ethic is questioned.

 

Anyone care to clarify this?

 

 

I can't clarify, but I can add a little context. First, we don't see what Hicks is like in the clubhouse, so I find it somewhat plausible that there's something going on that makes the difference more reasonable than it seems prima facie.

 

Second, in the game on Friday, Bremer said that the back issues were due to swinging only right, and he explicitly said that it was not, in fact, due to the home run robbing catch. I think the difference between the two situations is clear.

 

To clarify my own position, I don't want Hicks treated any differently than Mauer, for example. It's not fair to him, and it's not fair to the team. But from where I'm sitting, I simply can't prove that he is being treated differently. I accept that there are severe limitations on what I know. All I can do is hope that there isn't a disparity, and further hope for swift correction if a disparity ever develops (proven).

[TheLeviathan]

Yount was an established major league shortstop before making the transition. And Santana is no Robin Yount.

 

The one case in which a player has given up switch hitting recently was a success. Therefore, it is almost impossible that another player could be successful making this transition. Great argument.

 

Obviously, Hicks is a lightening rod for a lot of people around here. I just want to remind everyone that he was a top-rated prospect who has struggled with one aspect of his game throughout his career: hitting left handed. I'm sure it will take time. But it is not impossible. At any rate, it's way too early to give up on him based on one week's worth of play exclusively right handed, in a week when he was out for two games with a sore back, which he hurt when landing on it after robbing a home run.

 

I am an optimist. But I am not the rosiest of optimists. Another great argument, the classic straw man.

 

Perhaps you should rethink who is really giving up on Hicks. Throwing him out against superior competition to relearn a grade school technique? Sounds like throwing a guy who cant swim into an ocean with no life jacket.

 

I struggle to imagine a scenario that would better illustrate giving up on someone.

[Kirby_waved_at_me]

Mauer probably gets deference and respect for his longevity with the team and his 3 batting titles.

Fuld gets as much time to recover in part because having him back in the lineup, while helpful, isn't a long-term fix. Fuld is not the future CF or 4th (or even AAA depth) of the Twins org.

Hicks is getting the short end of the stick for at least these two reasons - one, he's not a proven veteran that has come out of slumps before. Two, he IS a player the Twins want to make an impact this year and to, at the very least, be a productive 4th outfielder in the future.

I agree that it's probably not fair treatment. Hicks is getting roasted over the coals for being a player with potential that has yet to really show he's ready for the job he was given last year. I'm in the same camp as a lot of commenters that think Hicks should be given the chance to figure these issues out in AAA, but I also think the lack of OF depth on the 25 Man roster means he's not going to get that luxury.

He's going to be stuck trying to figure things out on the fly (for the 2nd season in a row) in an unforgiving environment.

[jharaldson]

Just to put a finer point on it, you argue that Santana can make the transition because one (HOF) player did. Then you argue that Hicks cannot make the transition because only one (non-HOF) player did. Either way, the argument from one case is weak. But isn't odd to you that you can use the same argument to support opposite conclusions?

 

I don't think it is fair to say Stringer only gave 1 example. Tovar, Phillips, and Rose made the transition from infield to outfield and from the Twins I recall Willingham being a catcher for the Marlins, Cuddyer playing infield, Denny Hocking being a utility guy, and they all made the conversion to OF. Not on the Twins I recall Biggio, Ankiel, Braun, ect..... I think the larger point is that with players converting to outfield in the majors there is a large pool of comps to make people comfortable that it can work. With players converting from switch-hitting to one side of the plate there is not a large pool of comps to make people comfortable.

[ScottyB]

There is no question that Hicks could use some time at AAA - just as Hunter did before things clicked. But there is also no question that when Fuld is ready to come off the DL (the last position player on the current DL), the Twins need to sever ties with Kubel. At this point he is just taking up space, and clearly is not part of the future of this team.

[jokin]

Sam Fuld (concussion) will take batting practice with the Twins on Wednesday.

The outfielder has been out since May 8. He's progressed nicely in his recovery and has been able to participate in full baseball activities as of late. Still, there's still no timetable for his return.

 

http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/mlb/5287/sam-fuld

 

I would imagine we'll be hearing more from the beat guys soon after Fuld's BP session tomorrow. Perhaps he will begin his rehab assignment if all goes well, with a shot at rejoining the team by sometime later next week.

[oldguy10]

Frankly I am completely "underwhelmed" by the prospect of Fuld's return, how about the rest of you?

[jokin]

Frankly I am completely "underwhelmed" by the prospect of Fuld's return, how about the rest of you?

 

If it allows Hicks to get his act together in a lower-stress venue, I'm all in favor of it. Fuld is a perfectly competent 4th OFer.

[LaBombo]

Frankly I am completely "underwhelmed" by the prospect of Fuld's return, how about the rest of you?

 

Yeah. But in purely sabre terms, it's a 1.1 WAR player replacing a -.3 one. And in player terms, it's a mediocre but defensively serviceable veteran offering the Twins a chance to temporarily demote or sit a struggling youngster who, at the moment, has half the Old Country Buffet on his plate.

[jokin]

http://www.rotoworld.com/recent/mlb/5287/sam-fuld

 

I would imagine we'll be hearing more from the beat guys soon after Fuld's BP session tomorrow. Perhaps he will begin his rehab assignment if all goes well, with a shot at rejoining the team by sometime later next week.

 

Mike Berardino ‏@MikeBerardino 1h

Fuld should be able to hit on field during regular BP Wednesday when #mntwins return. Rehab assignment could start by weekend

[oldguy10]

A roster filled with "perfectly competent" players is the main reason the Twins have managed to have three straight +90 seasons in a row, if that practice continues expect much more of the same.

[Beezer07]

Frankly I am completely "underwhelmed" by the prospect of Fuld's return, how about the rest of you?

 

About as excited as if the Twins were calling up Clete Thomas, Mastro, or Alex Pressley

[jokin]

About as excited as if the Twins were calling up Clete Thomas, Mastro, or Alex Pressley

 

Ignoring the fact that Fuld has a career WAR around 3.0 and the other 3 players, combined, are worth -0.2 WAR, this isn't really much at all about Fuld. He's a very credible 4th OF, and is easily discardable when the Twins are presented with a better opportunity to upgrade the position. This is about plugging up a gaping depth hole in CF and making every effort to salvage the career of Aaron Hicks by giving him the chance to get it together in AAA.

[kblack1011]

Ignoring the fact that Fuld has a career WAR around 3.0 and the other 3 players, combined, are worth -0.2 WAR, this isn't really much at all about Fuld. He's a very credible 4th OF, and is easily discardable when the Twins are presented with a better opportunity to upgrade the position. This is about plugging up a gaping depth hole in CF and making every effort to salvage the career of Aaron Hicks by giving him the chance to get it together in AAA.

 

Completely agree, I have not been a huge Hicks fan based on what he done, but I can't blame the Twins for bring him up after the huge spring training. But once he showed he couldn't hit, they needed to send him down to AAA.

 

At this point, we are just running the major league services time for an unproductive player. We are making more difficult for him to become the player people believe he can be, plus the Twins put themselves in a place where they will have to pay him early if they think he has a future.

[Mike Sixel]

A roster filled with "perfectly competent" players is the main reason the Twins have managed to have three straight +90 seasons in a row, if that practice continues expect much more of the same.

 

No one is saying use Fuld forever, but right now, today, what is the best thing to do? Some believe sending Hicks down to work on RH only is the right thing. It is hard to argue that.

[cmathewson]

Perhaps you should rethink who is really giving up on Hicks. Throwing him out against superior competition to relearn a grade school technique? Sounds like throwing a guy who cant swim into an ocean with no life jacket.

 

I struggle to imagine a scenario that would better illustrate giving up on someone.

 

Benching him (which Gardy apparently has done already). DFAing him (which Antony is capable of doing). Sending him to AA. I can think of a lot of ways to show you've given up on a player. Playing him everyday in the majors is not one of them.

[cmathewson]

No one is saying use Fuld forever, but right now, today, what is the best thing to do? Some believe sending Hicks down to work on RH only is the right thing. It is hard to argue that.

 

As long as Gardy refuses to play Hicks, he's better off in AAA. If he wants to play him almost everyday, he's better off learning how to hit breaking balls from right-handed pitchers who actually know how to throw breaking balls.