Don't Build Like The Twins

[tobi0040]

I've said all along he may as well play out the year. That was my point - there is no disagreement there, I am not "giving up" on him, etc.

 

This sounds an awful lot like giving up on him to me.

 

"Twins outfielders as a whole this year are far below replacement level. They are the worst in the Majors by an immense margin. If that is your standard, then certainly Hicks can remain a starter. But if you want a productive outfield, Hicks has no place in it."

[Twins Twerp]

Berrios surely is something to deal around...dealing tonight with ND, 10 k's in 7 innings

[drivlikejehu]

This sounds an awful lot like giving up on him to me.

 

"Twins outfielders as a whole this year are far below replacement level. They are the worst in the Majors by an immense margin. If that is your standard, then certainly Hicks can remain a starter. But if you want a productive outfield, Hicks has no place in it."

 

Sure, taken out of context. But the post began by noting how bad the Twins other outfielders have been. My point was that Hicks may as well keep playing for now, as I have said consistently.

 

However, with respect to the future, Hicks as he is now doesn't cut it. That's not a very controversial position - I guarantee you the Twins agree. Nor can any rational person be 100% certain he will dramatically improve sometime soon.

[mnfireman]

Skipping the last 4 pages of this thread, an OF of Arcia in LF, Buxton in CF and Hicks in RF totally blows away an OF of Hicks in CF and anybody else who has played corner OF since Arcia and Willingham went down in early April. If anything trotting SS's out to play the OF maybe gives the team an opportunity to showcase these players for possible trades.

[tobi0040]

Sure, taken out of context. But the post began by noting how bad the Twins other outfielders have been. My point was that Hicks may as well keep playing for now, as I have said consistently.

 

However, with respect to the future, Hicks as he is now doesn't cut it. That's not a very controversial position - I guarantee you the Twins agree. Nor can any rational person be 100% certain he will dramatically improve sometime soon.

 

What part was taken out of context? Saying he has no place in a productive outfield sounds an awful lot like you are giving up on him. Unless your point of view is that our goal is to have an unproductive outfield and which case, he is a great fit.

[kab21]

He was always rated very highly in the minors. So why has he struggled up here? Maybe if we listen to what he has said, it might help.

 

He has said his biggest challenges in learning how to play up here include the bigger second deck behind home plate and the higher drives that get lost in the sea of white shirts up there. In the minors, balls hit high tend to not be as deep as they are up here. So you have a chance to get under them. That makes sense, because if they hit them high and deep, they end up in the MLB.

 

His tools always rated highly in the minors but there were still comments about creative routes that he made up for with his speed. He wasn't polished defensively and he's still more defensive tools than skill.

 

Ideally the Twins would be in a position to stash Hicks (and possibly even Arcia) in AAA for a year. He's a complete mess offensively regardless of his decent OBP.

[tobi0040]

Berrios surely is something to deal around...dealing tonight with ND, 10 k's in 7 innings

 

Kind of what I had in mind. Regarding the fact that Didi was the #3 pick, that is a sunk cost. They have their SS of the future but he is in AAA playing well. Seems like a great fit for both teams frankly.

[cmathewson]

His tools always rated highly in the minors but there were still comments about creative routes that he made up for with his speed. He wasn't polished defensively and he's still more defensive tools than skill.

 

Ideally the Twins would be in a position to stash Hicks (and possibly even Arcia) in AAA for a year. He's a complete mess offensively regardless of his decent OBP.

 

Last 28 games: .250/.413/.389/.802

[kab21]

Last 28 days: .250/.413/.389/.802

 

46 PA's.

[glunn]

And Gomez was a great fielder day one.

 

 

I was about 100 feet away at a game in Anaheim where Gomez took one of the worst routes I have ever seen. Small sample size, but I also recall seeing some miscues on TV.

[Guest USAFChief]

I was about 100 feet away at a game in Anaheim where Gomez took one of the worst routes I have ever seen. Small sample size, but I also recall seeing some miscues on TV.

Completely agree. Gomez was more tools and speed than polish as a Twin, similar to Hicks.

[Brock Beauchamp]

It's kind of interesting that in Carlos Gomez' age 24 season, he had an OPS+ of 76. Currently, Hicks is sporting an OPS+ of 74 in his age 24 season.

 

Though it's basically impossible for two players to look any different up and down the stat sheet. Gomez was no discipline with some power and Hicks is all discipline with no power.

[Shane Wahl]

Hicks-Buxton-Rosario and Hicks-Buxton-Arcia are both good options in the future and hopefully that future arrives at some point in 2015.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Hicks-Buxton-Rosario and Hicks-Buxton-Arcia are both good options in the future and hopefully that future arrives at some point in 2015.

 

Seems to me that Rosario should be returning to play in the next 7-10 days. Is that right?

 

It will be interesting to see how long it takes him to shake off the rust. It'd be fantastic if he could get some time in Minnesota this September.

[JB_Iowa]

Seth Stohs @SethTweets · 24h

 

Eligible to be reinstated next Sunday (25th). RT @I_Am_Nice05 @SethTweets when does Eddie Rosario come back?

 

 

 

[drivlikejehu]

What part was taken out of context? Saying he has no place in a productive outfield sounds an awful lot like you are giving up on him. Unless your point of view is that our goal is to have an unproductive outfield and which case, he is a great fit.

 

It's not real complicated. Right now Hicks can't hit. I don't think he's going to completely turn it around. Therefore he is not a fit for a corner OF spot in 2015, 2016, etc.

 

However, since in 2014 there are no alternatives, he may as well play. If he does have a surprise breakout, great.

 

Therefore, I am not "giving up on him" because he still has the opportunity to improve. But neither would I pencil him in for 2015, because as of now he's not good enough, and I doubt he will be.

 

I guess understanding my post requires the ability to differentiate between the current year (2014) and future years (2015+).

[Brandon]

The OF defense will be good long term. Right now is a rare time in the last 20 years where their OF defense is worse then the rest of the league. that has more to do with the Twins selling high on a player both Span and Revere before their replacements were ready. Hicks can became a corner OF or 4th OF if he doesn't hit enough and Buxton will be a gold glove caliber player and Rosario and Arcia will be adequate. I think the hard part for our psyche is that the issue is CF. Outside of the Rich Becker days how long has it been since Minnesota had any type of issue in CF? Puckett, late 90's with Rich Becker and Otis Nixon, Torii Hunter, Gomez, Span, ....at least 1983.

[tobi0040]

It's not real complicated. Right now Hicks can't hit. I don't think he's going to completely turn it around. Therefore he is not a fit for a corner OF spot in 2015, 2016, etc.

 

However, since in 2014 there are no alternatives, he may as well play. If he does have a surprise breakout, great.

 

Therefore, I am not "giving up on him" because he still has the opportunity to improve. But neither would I pencil him in for 2015, because as of now he's not good enough, and I doubt he will be.

 

I guess understanding my post requires the ability to differentiate between the current year (2014) and future years (2015+).

 

The ability to differentiate is different than you articulating that your statements more clearly.

 

For example, saying "Hicks has no place in a productive outfield" is different than "Hicks has no place in a productive outfield right now, but he may improve to the point of being a productive player down the road".

 

The first statement suggests you were giving up on him, the second explicitly states you are not.

[bird]

Uhh....look at the Rochester Red Wings pitching numbers. And then compare them to the 2013 numbers. The AAA club has gone from Worst in the IL to nearly First, in terms of ERA and K%. Looking for near-future replacement pitchers? Rochester is a good place to start.

 

This. The five best starters (all superior now to a broken Pelfry) in Rochester this year (May, Johnson, Meyer, Darnell, and yes, Diamond) would likely perform better than last year's Twins starters did. It's just a matter of time, and our worst starter will likely be May and not Correia, who we recall was the best SP in last year's rotation.

[drivlikejehu]

The ability to differentiate is different than you articulating that your statements more clearly.

 

For example, saying "Hicks has no place in a productive outfield" is different than "Hicks has no place in a productive outfield right now, but he may improve to the point of being a productive player down the road".

 

The first statement suggests you were giving up on him, the second explicitly states you are not.

 

Yes "as of now" would have added some clarity to the original post, for those who could not recognize the context. But I clarified what I meant on a prior page. So why are you still going on about it?

[Beezer07]

He's a complete mess offensively regardless of his decent OBP.

 

FWIW, I'd much rather have this than "he's a complete mess offensively regardless of his decent AVG."

[Brock Beauchamp]

FWIW, I'd much rather have this than "he's a complete mess offensively regardless of his decent AVG."

 

Yep. I'll take the overly passive guy with great discipline over the guy who swings at everything. It's a lot easier to teach a guy to swing than the opposite.

[Otto von Ballpark]

This. The five best starters (all superior now to a broken Pelfry) in Rochester this year (May, Johnson, Meyer, Darnell, and yes, Diamond) would likely perform better than last year's Twins starters did. It's just a matter of time, and our worst starter will likely be May and not Correia, who we recall was the best SP in last year's rotation.

 

Is there something in the water at Rochester? Meyer and May were K guys at AA, but Darnell and Johnson have increased their Ks by 40-50% this year.

[kab21]

Yep. I'll take the overly passive guy with great discipline over the guy who swings at everything. It's a lot easier to teach a guy to swing than the opposite.

 

Big difference in what you are actually talking about. It's easy to tell a guy to swing more but it's not easy teach a guy to hit the ball (what Hicks isn't doing).

 

Right now people are cherry picking his stats and giving him points for keeping the bat on his shoulder like a scared little leaguer and he isn't squaring up the ball often. He still has raw tools that could produce a solid MLB'er but I'm not that optimistic.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Big difference in what you are actually talking about. It's easy to tell a guy to swing more but it's not easy teach a guy to hit the ball (what Hicks isn't doing).

 

Right now people are cherry picking his stats and giving him points for keeping the bat on his shoulder like a scared little leaguer and he isn't squaring up the ball often. He still has raw tools that could produce a solid MLB'er but I'm not that optimistic.

 

Oh, I agree. Hicks is having problems making contact... But that's not necessarily linked to his passivity at the plate. He may be taking more pitches because he's afraid to swing and miss but I view Hicks' discipline and inability to make contact as different issues with some overlap. I think the contact issues are more closely correlated with his strikeout rate, which is still too high.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Is there something in the water at Rochester? Meyer and May were K guys at AA, but Darnell and Johnson have increased their Ks by 40-50% this year.

 

Don't know about Johnson, but Darnell was showing that potential in AA last year. He struggled a bit during his promotion. He wasn't donig 1k/ip, but he was doing very well.

[Otto von Ballpark]

Don't know about Johnson, but Darnell was showing that potential in AA last year. He struggled a bit during his promotion. He wasn't donig 1k/ip, but he was doing very well.

 

Darnell was 7.2 K/9 at AA last year, in his second time through the league, and not real young for the league either (24). Fell to 6.8 in AAA last year, which was not surprising.

 

9.6 this year? That's surprising! None of the starters in AAA have great BB rates right now, but they are racking up the Ks and limiting the hits (well, except for Diamond) even when their histories would not suggest it (Darnell and Johnson). I wonder if the AAA pitching coach isn't a "pitch to contact" guy? From the numbers, it looks like these guys are pitching aggressively rather than the more passive guys we are used to seeing.

[Alex]

I don't really like the Gomez/Hicks comparisons. Gomez was 23 his last year with the Twins. Hicks was 23 in the first year he was called up. And even though Gomez was younger and not very good, only his first season at age 21 was as bad as Hicks has been.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I don't really like the Gomez/Hicks comparisons. Gomez was 23 his last year with the Twins. Hicks was 23 in the first year he was called up. And even though Gomez was younger and not very good, only his first season at age 21 was as bad as Hicks has been.

 

Not true. Gomez posted a 76 OPS+ in his age 24 season, which was his best season to that point.

 

Hicks, also in his age 24 season, currently has an OPS+ of 74.

 

Both were bad before age 25. Very, very bad. Gomez obviously improved, time will tell whether Hicks does the same.

[bird]

Is there something in the water at Rochester? Meyer and May were K guys at AA, but Darnell and Johnson have increased their Ks by 40-50% this year.

 

They both had spring training time with Rick Anderson.

 

I'm ducking.