Is Twins Organization Broken?

[striker_86]

I can't see this organization turning around until the pitching improves by quite a bit. And I don't think that pitching currently exists anywhere in the organization, nor does the will or smarts to go out and purchase it. That leads me to the simple truth that no matter what happens with the current positions player prospects, there is no quick "rebuild" on the horizon.

It all starts with the pitching. As soon as Santana left we were in trouble. The team assumed Liriano would emerge as that ace we needed to anchor a rotation and win playoff games. We need to spend the money on a #1 starter, even if it means breaking the bank on it. It was great back in 04/05 when we would roll into Yankee stadium and pitch great. And that was an offense that included everyday players like Blanco, Mientkiewicz, Rivas (none of which hit over .260 for the season). Granted we did have much more power hitters in guys like Jones, Hunter and Koskie. But it all starts with pitching. Get an ace and find a rotation thats going to get you wins no matter how your offense produces....worry about the rest later.

[darin617]

if you want to be a fan of a team that spends spends spends be a Yankee fan. I am proud to be a fan of a team that develops. And yeah some prospects haven't worked out, but that is part of the process. The future of the organization is bright whether people want to admit it or not.

So what have the Twins developed in the last 4 years that can be viewed as a success?

[adjacent]

It all starts with the pitching. As soon as Santana left we were in trouble. The team assumed Liriano would emerge as that ace we needed to anchor a rotation and win playoff games. We need to spend the money on a #1 starter, even if it means breaking the bank on it. It was great back in 04/05 when we would roll into Yankee stadium and pitch great. And that was an offense that included everyday players like Blanco, Mientkiewicz, Rivas (none of which hit over .260 for the season). Granted we did have much more power hitters in guys like Jones, Hunter and Koskie. But it all starts with pitching. Get an ace and find a rotation thats going to get you wins no matter how your offense produces....worry about the rest later.

That is why I am not mad at managers, general managers or players. They are who they are. But if the ownership had decided to keep payroll and invest in pitching, this would be a decent team today. They decided to pocket the 15 million (on the 3rd year of a city subsidized stadium, come on!) and this is the result, No wonder that attendance is down.

[powrwrap]

Originally Posted by Top Gun Gardy slept through spring training, he didn't have the team ready to play.

 

What does a statement like this even mean? From all reports, he was more and more intense. They made some tough decisions. They kept people healthy and got at bats. I guess someone will have to explain this one to me.

 

Here's some more quotes from Top Gun:

 

Gardy got the Twins going now. Great job!

 

I expect the Twins to win the central. There pitching will be fine.

 

Trade Span for Inge now if you hurry!

 

Don't need great pitching, Capps and sp can get the job done.

Is this the idoit board or what?

[Highabove]

Last year, 30 million dollars came off the Books. 3 million dollars of that was used to upgrade the starting pitching.

 

Take that as you wish.

[Top Gun]

Fowrwarp, some of this sarcram. Gardy is a good manager, but he does sit on his hands alot and wait for his players to play , so does

his coaches. Pitchers weren't ready. You can't have a lineup of Plouffe, Parmelee, Thomas, ect. and expect to score runs. Even Verlander

and Kershaw lost today on good teams. You can't go out and trade for pitching, plus you have notting to trade. No the central is not

that great, but they all can hit and better than the Twins. It was management that let most of there good hitters go and are to blame

the most. The Twins need direction!

[striker_86]

Fowrwarp, some of this sarcram. Gardy is a good manager, but he does sit on his hands alot and wait for his players to play , so does

his coaches. Pitchers weren't ready. You can't have a lineup of Plouffe, Parmelee, Thomas, ect. and expect to score runs. Even Verlander

and Kershaw lost today on good teams. You can't go out and trade for pitching, plus you have notting to trade. No the central is not

that great, but they all can hit and better than the Twins. It was management that let most of there good hitters go and are to blame

the most. The Twins need direction!

it all starts with pitching, get a reliable rotation and we can worry about the offense when we are losing 2-1 games

[righty8383]

This organization is absolutely broken. Sure teams go through down seasons, but last season was an absolute disaster and this season looks like it could be worse. Terry Ryan and the scouting department are largely responsible for the terrible drafting from 2003-2007. Lets not forget Bill Smith and those disasterous trades. Can it be fixed? Sure, with good drafting (particularly this year), and of course development, but I'm not confident that the powers that be will get it done.

 

Gardy and the coaching staff are burnt out and they seem to have lost the team. It happens, rarely can a manager be effective for 10 years or more. I appreciate Gardy for his contributions to this team over the years, but its time for a change. I can't say for sure if that will help, I just don't foresee the Twins getting back to contention with him and TR running things. I just think its time to clean house and get some new blood.

[Fanatic Jack]

You were optimistic about pitcher Liam Hendriks as being one of those great new prospects. Cross him off your list because he is terrible.

[glunn]

You were optimistic about pitcher Liam Hendriks as being one of those great new prospects. Cross him off your list because he is terrible.

I was at tonight's game, and Hendricks had velocity but limited movement. It also seemed like most of the early hits were grounders that found the gaps, and the fielding was less than stellar. I am not ready to give up on Hendricks, but he did not look good tonight.

 

As for the organization being broken, I hope that those posters who are touting the minor league prospects turn out to be correct. Also, based on what I saw tonight, I won't be surprised if we get the #1 pick next year.

[tpb8]

Sadly, the quickest way to a rebuild for the Twins is to take their current talent (Mauer, Morneau, Span & Willingham) and trade them for pitching or MLB-ready prospects. I don't see any other way. We have no SP prospects in the pipeline, save for possibly Gibson next season. How are we going to suddenly infuse the the team with pitching talent?

 

Do the Twins really need to continue paying Mauer & Morneau over 30 millions dollars a year to finish last? Keeping them on the team is pointless. It puts us in between rebuilding and trying to contend. The Twins need to commit to a full-on rebuild. I like Span, but he's a tradeable asset. We need to move him while his value is high. Willingham as well.

 

The casual fans will scream about this and talk about the new stadium & trading our best players and getting rid of a local hero, but the smart baseball fan will see that there's no other way to infuse talent into this organization. Management can't afford to sit on their hands and try and rebuild this thing through drafts and development. It's too long a process. We need good young arms now. Attendance is already way down. The Twins are the worst team in baseball and are following up the disaster of 2011 with something even worse. Can they really wait until 2015 to give the fans hope again?

[nicksaviking]

Unless the Twins eat most of Mauer and Morneau's salary, they won't be getting any ace-type prospects in return for them. At this point, why would the Twins even consider trading for back-end of the rotation arms. That's all the organziation has now.

[JB_Iowa]

I was going to pose this question in a separate thread but will ask it here to follow up on tpb8's comment. Does anyone else think that Mauer's starting streak to open the season was any indication that he is open to a trade?

 

I realize that he was also probably trying to rebuild his reputation as a whole but this seemed to me to be going a little beyond that. Almost as though he were trying to produce his best showing early in the season to try to position himself for a favorable trade. In 2009 and 2010, he didn't really heat up until after the 4th of July so it seemed a little odd to me to see him pushing it so hard at the start of the season.

 

I do think that Mauer wants to win a championship. It's hard not to recall the "promises" for a competitive team when the new Mauer contract was inked. Seems to me that Mauer, the Twins organization and a lot of fans may be a lot more open to a trade at this point.

 

So here's hoping that he can somehow manage a strong season and increase his trade value.

[jeffk]

There's nothing wrong with having a down, rebuilding year - that's normal for mid-market teams. What is a problem is fielding a team that is so terrible nobody can hardly watch them. While rebuilding you don't need to be above .500, but you do need to play respectable baseball. Once everyone stops watching, then you're out of money anyways, so rebuilding becomes impossible and the whole thing collapses.

[twinswon1991]

Terrible management, terrible mlb team, and no help in the minors =no hope. Welcome to Pirates baseball folks.

[StormJH1]

I was going to pose this question in a separate thread but will ask it here to follow up on tpb8's comment. Does anyone else think that Mauer's starting streak to open the season was any indication that he is open to a trade?

 

I realize that he was also probably trying to rebuild his reputation as a whole but this seemed to me to be going a little beyond that. Almost as though he were trying to produce his best showing early in the season to try to position himself for a favorable trade. In 2009 and 2010, he didn't really heat up until after the 4th of July so it seemed a little odd to me to see him pushing it so hard at the start of the season.

 

I do think that Mauer wants to win a championship. It's hard not to recall the "promises" for a competitive team when the new Mauer contract was inked. Seems to me that Mauer, the Twins organization and a lot of fans may be a lot more open to a trade at this point.

 

So here's hoping that he can somehow manage a strong season and increase his trade value.

I refuse to believe Mauer will ever be traded by this organization. I think a lot of the frustration thrown at him is not necessarily about him as a player (he is, after all, a very good player), but the fact that he is bulletproof in this town and virtually had this organization held hostage with his contract, the new stadium, and the perception that even in the Metrodome, Mauer's popularity, alone, probably sells 2,500 - 7,500 tickets a night. The fact that has them hostage with a smile and a .320 batting average (instead of complaining to the media or openly demanding the money), doesn't change the financial reality of what his contract means for this team.

 

As for the overall organization, I don't know if "broken" is the right word. Obviously, they did a lot of things remarkably right. Their run of sustained success, weaker division or not, was invaluable in developing and maintaining a fan base. And in getting a stadium built, as evidence by the current struggles of the Vikings, which are an even more popular Minnesota team.

 

But in the midst of that success, they were absolutely not doing the things in the lower levels of the organization that were needed to replenish their talent. We're still sorting through a whole generation of pitchers (now in their early or mid-20's) who were drafted in the image of the crafty, strike-throwing right hander. You could probably name a dozen of these "Radke" clones that we've sorted through, but they're all virtually the same - good enough to hover around the majors, but never really had a ceiling any higher than a 4th or 5th starter.

 

I think that the organization has already "fixed" some of what was broken, but we just haven't seen the results of that yet. Kyle Gibson does not look like your typical Twins draft pick, but he got hurt. Miguel Sano was an aggressive youth signing, and he's about as promising of low minors prospect as you could ask for. Nishioka, while it completely didn't work, was an effort by the Twins to "go outside the box" and aggressively acquire a player they thought had potential to be a star. And I think the 2011-12 offseason WAS a "success" from the standpoint that this team made more moves to improve their future, as opposed to just patching it up or acquiescing to re-signing popular players that wouldn't have helped the team's future (Nathan, Kubel, and Cuddy). I would be surprised if the Twins don't use a number of the picks that they stockpiled in the June draft on power arms and high-risk, high-reward prospects. You can always sign or claim replacement level players at the major league level, even on the low budget. The goal of the draft is to try and find guys who are significantly BETTER than that, and if you whiff on 4 out of 5 of those efforts, that's just the price of admission. I think they're starting to get that, as ugly as the on-field product is, and will continue to be.

[CDog]

In 2009 and 2010, he didn't really heat up until after the 4th of July so it seemed a little odd to me to see him pushing it so hard at the start of the season.

Yeah, I remember everyone wondering why he was struggling out of the gate in 2009 when he only hit .414 in May with a .500 (wait, .500!!!!) OBP and .838 SLG (for a 1.338 OPS). Then when he went .353/.407/.490 in June, all the baseball world was clamoring about what could be wrong. Then in 2010 we had to go through it all again when he finished April only .345/.406/.500.

 

Methinks your memory may have tricked you.

[JB_Iowa]

CDog, thanks for the refresher. Didn't he did miss the 1st month of 2009 and wasn't 2010 the year in which he had the awful bunt attempt?

 

Perhaps those are the things that made me recall that he seemed to improve in July.

 

And I still think my overall question is valid. Does Mauer now seem like he is more likely to waive his no-trade clause (rats abandoning a sinking ship comes to mind)? And would the Twins now be much more willing to deal him? And would fans be much more accepting of a trade?

 

He has a lot more work to do to make himself really tradeable (in a meaningful way) but staying on the field is part of it.

[tpb8]

I have no problems with Mauer. He's a great player. He's also making $23 million per year on a last place team that has many needs. I refuse to beleive you could not trade Mauer right now. I know he has a huge contract to move, but anything is possible with teams that spend like NY, Boston, Angels....etc. I singled him out only as a player that could bring us back some solid young players/prospects. The same goes for Span & Willingham.

 

Morneau is tradeable if he comes back and hits. His contract is not so huge that a contender wouldn't be interested (if he comes back and hits).

 

These would be unpopular moves with the casual fans (90% of Twins fans), but i think they need to happen in order to speed up the rebuilding process. Right now i don't consider the Twins to be in rebuilding mode. I don't think they felt (before the season) that they needed to rebuild. I think they probably see now that they do so it'll be interesting to see if they're willing to part with some popular players for future gains.

[2003freak2003]

CDog, thanks for the refresher. Didn't he did miss the 1st month of 2009 and wasn't 2010 the year in which he had the awful bunt attempt?

 

Perhaps those are the things that made me recall that he seemed to improve in July.

 

And I still think my overall question is valid. Does Mauer now seem like he is more likely to waive his no-trade clause (rats abandoning a sinking ship comes to mind)? And would the Twins now be much more willing to deal him? And would fans be much more accepting of a trade?

 

He has a lot more work to do to make himself really tradeable (in a meaningful way) but staying on the field is part of it.

You are delusional. "This just in Joe Mauer waves no trade clause, says he didnt sit out early part of season because he wants to be traded, and also realizes the twins suck so he wants to jump ship." Ok so you might not hear those exact words but that it what your saying...No chance dude...Mauer made a choice to stay when he signed his contract and he and his agent had to of known that AFTER the 1st couple of years he signed it might not be "fun times" around twins territory...but that it would be him they would build the future around.

[CDog]

CDog, thanks for the refresher. Didn't he did miss the 1st month of 2009 and wasn't 2010 the year in which he had the awful bunt attempt?

 

And I still think my overall question is valid. Does Mauer now seem like he is more likely to waive his no-trade clause (rats abandoning a sinking ship comes to mind)? And would the Twins now be much more willing to deal him? And would fans be much more accepting of a trade?

Yes, 2009 he missed all of April. I thought the bunt thing was extremely overblown and--probably related to that fact--I don't remember if it was last year or the year before. I feel like it was later in the year, though, but that's just from faint memory (like July or August).

 

I guess I'd say that the Twins and their fans might be some tiny amount more accepting of the idea of trading him. I still would be shocked if that got all the way to "it happens." And I would be just as surprised if that had anything to do with the reasons he's been in the lineup as much as he has.

[BD57]

Gardy's a good manager. It's possible that he's grown stale for the guys in the clubhouse - even good managers do sometimes - but I don't think this is all on Gardy. He's part of the problem, but he's not the sole cause.

 

IMO, the Twins don't place much value on power arms & bats. Maybe they're hard to identify when kids are coming out of HS or 3rd year of college ball, I don't know - - - maybe they're hard to develop when you're preaching "pitch to contact" and "hit the other way" all the time.

[Bark's Lounge]

At some point every baseball organization is going to suck. Right now our home team is starting to figure out that MLB has outgrown the "Twins Way". Ryan and his staff need to change philosophies on the fly and start the long process to make things right. If they can't someone else will. The Pohlads (love them or hate them) depend on making money from this team - if they lose more money than they deem acceptable, Ryan and his staff will be replaced. No questions asked. Also, Mauer will not be traded or accept a trade. First of all the Twins won't eat the amount of salary it would take to move him - and 2nd, Mauer does not want to be traded. I wish Mauer had some super power to harness all of the negative energy thrown his way and use it for good. If THAT were the case he should retire from baseball and fix some of the REAL problems we have in this world/society/country. With all of the negative energy he has harnessed, he is 20 times more powerful than the sun.

[silverslugger]

Lots of interesting discussion on this thread, but much of it just icing on the cake. Back to the question, "are the Twins broke?"

 

Let's see;

 

1) Finish last in your division - check

2) Finish with the 2nd worst record in all of baseball - check

3) Have your two top minor league affiliates finish with historically bad seasons, one for the second year in a row - check

4) See #! above, do this in the weakest division in the AL - check

5) Go through the first month of the next season playing .250 ball - check

 

Need I go further?

 

Yes, the Twins are broken. Please Mr.s Pohlad and Mr. Ryan, fix the Twins!

[TwinsGuy55422]

I think it is much more likely that Mauer cares about the Twins and his childhood fanbase and was bound and determined to show them that he is healthy and ready to bust his butt for the team than wanting to increase his trade value.

[glunn]

Lots of interesting discussion on this thread, but much of it just icing on the cake. Back to the question, "are the Twins broke?"

 

Let's see;

 

1) Finish last in your division - check

2) Finish with the 2nd worst record in all of baseball - check

3) Have your two top minor league affiliates finish with historically bad seasons, one for the second year in a row - check

4) See #! above, do this in the weakest division in the AL - check

5) Go through the first month of the next season playing .250 ball - check

 

Need I go further?

 

Yes, the Twins are broken. Please Mr.s Pohlad and Mr. Ryan, fix the Twins!

Reality checks can be painful, and this one is difficult to dispute.