Article: Twins Need to Focus on Future, Not Old Favorites

[cmathewson]

Not to sound flippant but those 2000s Twins must have really not cared about winning games because they rolled out some pretty awful players as starters, much less 25th roster men.

 

One bad roster move is a mistake. Five bad roster moves is a catastrophe. I don't see why this is so difficult to understand. I'm not even defending the Bartlett move, it was a bad one... But ultimately, its importance is questionable because the Twins literally had a dozen chances to minimize its impact and fumbled at nearly every turn.

 

I agree with that. But those dozen chances were mostly about the 24th or 25th man, depending on how you count. As I said, the Bartlett move would have had minimal impact if they had DFAd anybody but the only center fielder above single A with options when they claimed Fuld.

[TheLeviathan]

but one is a mistake that can be absorbed

 

Sure, you MIGHT be able to absorb it. It MIGHT not sink your season. But it's stupid to invite the risk of it hurting your team when it's SO EASY to fix!!!! This team has willfully subjected itself to a risk over the faulty notion that it "doesn't matter" when it most certainly does.

 

It's silly to defend the practice of willfully creating a situation you may have to overcome. Especially when it's easy to improve that situation with little or no significant cost. Maybe a handful of money and smart planning. Rather, we're tossing aside any need to be smart or prudent on the basis that it "can be absorbed". Smart teams don't subject themselves to risks they don't need to take.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I agree with that. But those dozen chances were mostly about the 24th or 25th man, depending on how you count. As I said, the Bartlett move would have had minimal impact if they had DFAd anybody but the only center fielder above single A with options when they claimed Fuld.

 

And that's fair. They could have easily booted several other bad players off the 40 man and kept Mastro. They didn't have to swap Fuld for Mastroianni.

 

Looking at the 40 man, they currently have eight OF on the roster including Chris Herrmann.

 

So really, they have seven OF on the 40 man.

 

Four of those OF are injured.

 

Ugh.

[DocBauer]

Great article. Great points made by Nick and everyone else. Once again, well thought out arguements on both sides, and without the arguing. Lol

 

Some of my thoughts, and I apologize if I'm repetitive from other posts. The words go where needed.

 

The bad:

 

I 100% understand the Bartlett signing, even kind of agreed with it. Why not take a shot to see if a healthy Barlett could re-discover something and provide a steady backp and steady hand. Doubt something magical would happen, but what if it did? And a lot of people complained that maybe we needed a different attitude to be injected, of even, attitude at all. All that being said, it was obvious by the end of ST it was over. A few walks and at bats where he didn't strike out embarrassingly was no indication he could still play, much less provide depth at multiple positions. Some sort of misguided hope is no reason to give a roster spot to someone, in this case, the Bartlett experiment.

 

The worse:

 

I am not going to arbitrarily bash the FO. Between building the minors, and some ML moves, FA and otherwise, I think they've done a solid job. But when they botch something, it's got to be called out.

 

A team is built on its many parts. This may be most true in baseball where you really have two teams in one: 11-12 guys who basically do only one thing, pitch, and another 13-14 who play positions, don't pitch, and can't be substituted or rotated as in other sports. Plus, you play nearly every day, and don't have a reserve portion of the roster you can juggle as in the NFL or NBA on a game by game basis. So unless you save a spot at 25 on your roster for that rule 5 player to be stashed, as Nick stated, all 25 spots are important. And the FO blew two areas this off season.

 

The Twins blew the inf situation, not in regard to SS where they had Florimon, with all due respect to the many discussions and opinions debated at length, but with back up personnel. Sure, take a flyer on Barlett, why not? But nobody knew if Plouffe was going to mature as he has, nobody knew if Escobar was going to round in to a full time SS, short or long term, or be a quality utility guy. And despite playing very well now when given the chance, the jury is still out. Now, I think the Nunez might play out well as adding a useful player. And hopefully Santana will take this opportunity, and his considerable skills, and do something with it.

 

But we entered ST with Escobar, Barlett and a group of not yet ready middle infielders or AAAA players like Bernier for reserve status. Where was the ONE ML level guy you could count on? Nowhere.

 

Worse, as I have previously stated, was the OF/CF situation with the unknowns of Hicks, a journeyman in Presley, and an injured and still recovering Mastro. Losing Presley and Mastro and adding Fuld is not the point. Fuld is probably better than Presley anyway and Mastro, thus far, is a shadow of what he was in 2012. It's not about the Twins somehow expecting both Hicks and Fuld having concussions simultaneously. It's not even about losing Mastro and not replacing him. It's about going in to ST without another option to provide overall depth and competition, period.

 

The not so bad and even good:

 

The Barlett experiment was over quickly. And don't kid yourself, Gardy and the FO took a stupid shot and it clanked, and they knew it. If Barlett hadn't gotten hurt and decided to hang it up, they would have dropped him very soon. In fact, I have little doubt conversations with the Twins helped lead Bartlett to make his retirement decision.

 

The Twins made an unusually early season trade to bring in Nunez, not standing pat. Too bad he got hurt right away, but is hopefully healthy now and ready to help off the bench.

 

Arguements can be made the Twins waited too long, though only early May I don't see it that way, but they sent out Pelfrey and Florimon both. And even before sending Florimon down, Escobar began the process of replacing him. And doing rather well it should be noticed.

 

Further, despite Gardy's admirable but sometimes mis-guided loyalties to some players, these and other occurrences show a shift in the Twin's rebuilding philosophies and turning to young players. Giving Hicks his shot, playing Escobar now daily, Arcia in the daily lineup when healthy, keeping Pinto on the club and in the lineup daily (though I'd like to see him catch more), sticking with Dozier after the move to 2B last season, trusting Gibson in the rotation, sticking with Thielbar in the pen and calling up Tonkin early.

 

And shockingly, giving Santana a shot over the veteran Bernier, and actually letting him play!

 

There is a shift taking place here, and you will see more of it going forward.

 

Now that being said, I also am puzzled by the Guerrier move. His signing this off season for depth was a so-so move. But, it could provide a low risk depth move due to injuries and the such. And I don't have a real problem with his promotion at this time. I know he's not part of our future, and perhaps he'll simply be cut in a couple of weeks. But there is an opening in the pen with Deduno sliding in to the rotation that happens to co-incide with Guerrier's opt out. So you sent Darnell down, for now, to pitch every day and see if Guerrier can help fill in for the time being. Were it not for the opt out, probably would have seen the younger Pino come up instead. But in this particular case, I don't see Guerrier as being a "business as usual" move. Simply a look-see since things lined up a certain way. Now, if he isn't darned effective,or holds someone back, then we have issues here.

 

A roster caught short a day or two in the long season due to a sudden flux of injury is not an indictment of the FO. With a player or two ready to rejoin the club in 1-2 days and the team not wanting to make a number of sudden and very temporary roster moves should not be an indictment of the FO. However, failure to take action before the season starts at a position or two that have alarming and glaring needs IS something that needs to reprimanded.

[kdrupp09]

And shockingly, giving Santana a shot over the veteran Bernier, and actually letting him play!

 

There is a shift taking place here, and you will see more of it going forward.

 

I was actually very impressed with the FO for bringing up Santana. Hopefully he continues to play well and stays up.

[nicksaviking]

There will always be sentimental reunions if the same people run the show decade after decade after decade.

 

I'm not saying there needs to be front office change, but those who don't want change need to realize these kinds of moves are always going to happen.

[troyhobbs]

I don't really see much roster mis management here.

1. Bartlett vs Pressley....both are terrible so they went with the one with name recognition, also I bet they knew Fulds days were numbered in Oakland at this time too so if Bartlett failed which he did they had their option ready to pick.

2. Guerrier. we have 8 to 10 options who can succeed in a bullpen roll for a 7 man bullpen. which means we have depth to trade. Detroit and Anaheim Angels have bad bullpens and could come calling.

3. I can see that we probably should have sent Herman down a week ago and called up Wilkin Ramirez. that's probably the only real mistake I see.

 

At this point we are probably a starting pitcher and SS away from being a wild card contender. Meyer is coming up soon. so that one will be solved. stay tuned.....

 

Maybe if the Twins sign the best SP and SS to ever play baseball they'd be a wild card contender. Please name the RPs that the Twinkies could leverage in a meaningful trade that would make them competitive in the short term.

[troyhobbs]

In perhaps their most logical transaction of the year the Twins DFA Kenny Wilson, purchase Parms contract and activate Hicks.

[Dantes929]

" Maybe if the Twins sign the best SP and SS to ever play baseball they'd be a wild card contender." I can see it. Take Babe Ruth's 2.28 ERA to replace Correia and you have dropped another .5 run from the rotation average while also adding an everyday at bat maybe in center field since that is where the Red Sox played him and he was probably pretty fast. Maybe those old films aren't sped up but are real time. I'll take Alex Rodriquez in his 1996 year. Dozier, Mauer, Arod, Ruth, Plouffe, Willingham, Colabello, Pinto, and Arcia. That might contend for a wild spot. More likely we have to wait for Meyer, May, Darnell, Buxton, Sano and Rosario.

[Dantes929]

"In perhaps their most logical transaction of the year the Twins DFA Kenny Wilson, purchase Parms contract and activate Hicks." Where did you see that? Florimon and Hermann going down is definitely a contender. I have never wanted posters on here or maybe more to the point the Strib pages running this organization by consensus but this year has been a bit of a challenge to keeping that philosophical position.

[troyhobbs]

"In perhaps their most logical transaction of the year the Twins DFA Kenny Wilson, purchase Parms contract and activate Hicks." Where did you see that? Florimon and Hermann going down is definitely a contender. I have never wanted posters on here or maybe more to the point the Strib pages running this organization by consensus but this year has been a bit of a challenge to keeping that philosophical position.

 

I said perhaps.

[Brandon]

Whuuuuu? Who is our CF? For that matter, who is our outfield? Who is our leadoff hitter? Cleanup? Never mind the staff ERA of 4.67 and that is with a decent bullpen. I love the optimism, but I think we are more than a couple of players from being a wildcard contender.

 

The lineup can survive one hole in the lineup. Especially when the hole has a .315 OBP. that is at least serviceable. Plus he can field the position. (note He still has bad offense.)

 

the staff era is improving. with Deduno to go with Gibson, Hughes, and Nolasco gives us 4 solid not spectacular starters and when Meyer comes up that gives us a competitive 5 starters.

 

we have several cleanup type hitter on the roster Kubel, Willingham when he is healthy, Colabello, Arcia, Plouffe, and Suzuki has been hitting close to Mauer level here too.

 

This equates to needing 1 starting pitcher and one SS to be competitive. Yes we will still have holes. I didn't say we are going to beat Detroit for the division title. But I do think those 2 things would get us into the wild card discussion.

 

This is why I am frustrated about us not signing Drew. I hope Escobar runs with the SS position and fills that hole and Meyer fills out the rotation.

[Brandon]

Maybe if the Twins sign the best SP and SS to ever play baseball they'd be a wild card contender. Please name the RPs that the Twinkies could leverage in a meaningful trade that would make them competitive in the short term.

 

The Oakland A's need pitching depth and have a SS who is a top prospect in the minors. later this season we could trade 1 or 2 relievers, with say Willingham or Parmelee for offense, or a swingman like Swarzak or Corriea for Lowrie who will be a FA. Especially if Oakland has another pitcher get hurt. They get depth we get a proven SS for the stretch run.

 

Meyer is the pitcher to make us competitive provided he is ready when he comes up.

 

Anahiem and Detroit are 2 teams in the playoff hunt looking for bullpen help. I am sure there are others, Should we fall completely out of the race we could package 2 relievers for a decent prospect not great one.

[Mike Sixel]

Willingham? He hasn't played in a year. Parmalee? People claim he is a AAAA player.

[gocgo]

This is why I am frustrated about us not signing Drew. I hope Escobar runs with the SS position and fills that hole and Meyer fills out the rotation.

 

If you look at Drew's numbers, he really isn't all that. There's a reason every MLB team has passed on him for the money that he is asking....he isn't worth it.

[Otto von Ballpark]

The Oakland A's need pitching depth and have a SS who is a top prospect in the minors. later this season we could trade 1 or 2 relievers, with say Willingham or Parmelee for offense, or a swingman like Swarzak or Corriea for Lowrie who will be a FA. Especially if Oakland has another pitcher get hurt. They get depth we get a proven SS for the stretch run.

 

Oakland also has a hole at 2B. I doubt they are interested in dumping a 123 OPS+ SS for "pitching depth". Especially considering they rank #1 in ERA even without their top starters.

 

Plus, how many teams are ever interested in (or capable of) taking on 3 25-man roster players in exchange for 1. Such a deal would necessitate Oakland dumping multiple players in addition to Lowrie, just to make room for this supposed "depth".

[Otto von Ballpark]

The lineup can survive one hole in the lineup. Especially when the hole has a .315 OBP. that is at least serviceable. Plus he can field the position. (note He still has bad offense.)

 

the staff era is improving. with Deduno to go with Gibson, Hughes, and Nolasco gives us 4 solid not spectacular starters and when Meyer comes up that gives us a competitive 5 starters.

 

we have several cleanup type hitter on the roster Kubel, Willingham when he is healthy, Colabello, Arcia, Plouffe, and Suzuki has been hitting close to Mauer level here too.

 

This equates to needing 1 starting pitcher and one SS to be competitive. Yes we will still have holes. I didn't say we are going to beat Detroit for the division title. But I do think those 2 things would get us into the wild card discussion.

 

This is why I am frustrated about us not signing Drew. I hope Escobar runs with the SS position and fills that hole and Meyer fills out the rotation.

 

I should have read this post first. If you think the Twins are two players away from contending for the playoffs (and those two players could be Escobar and rookie Meyer instead of Trout and Kershaw), I think we must occupy different alternate universes, and thus any baseball discussion between us would be unproductive.

[Mr. Brooks]

 

And we can't have it both ways. This article is criticizing the Twins for going with aging veterans instead of prospects, a valid criticism given the Guerrier move.

 

But it's pretty tough to criticize the Mastro release when the Twins used that spot to pick up Kenny Wilson, a 24 year old centerfielder. They released Mastro, a guy who has lost a step and never looks to be a legitimate MLB player again, and acquired a young guy with marginal upside.

 

Isn't that the type of move we generally applaud?

 

 

Do you mean the same 24 year old centerfielder that they just DFA'd?

[Brock Beauchamp]

Do you mean the same 24 year old centerfielder that they just DFA'd?

 

Puzzling, to say the least.

[Brandon]

I should have read this post first. If you think the Twins are two players away from contending for the playoffs (and those two players could be Escobar and rookie Meyer instead of Trout and Kershaw), I think we must occupy different alternate universes, and thus any baseball discussion between us would be unproductive.

 

I am sorry. Here, I'll be more specific. When Meyer comes up and he pitches at his potential, that would cover the pitcher in the rotation we would need.

 

We still need a SS. I hope Escobar can succeed and run with the SS position. If he can post a .720 OPS and play above average defense with Meyer pitching to max ability we could then compete for a wildcard. I do not think that is enough to win the division.

 

on offense Suzuki and Plouffe have been big surprises. Colabello and kubel as well. so with Mauer and Arcia and Willingham when they come back and potentially Parmalee again with a solid SS that only leaves an inadequate CF in the lineup. Also when Meyer gets called up we will have a rotation of Nolasco, Hughes, Gibson, Deduno, and Meyer. That is an average rotation. With our bullpen being what they are really good and an average rotation = a net slightly above average rotation. That can get us in the play offs with some luck.

[Thrylos]

Reminds me of the late 90s after Puckett's surprise retirement - the Twins brought in guys like Paul Molitor, Dave Winfield, and Terry Steinbach, not because they'd help the team win, but because nostalgia-intoxicated diehards would keep watching and buying tickets. At least those fans were rewarded with milestones..

 

Exactly. And that was the same GM who dismantled the World Championship Twins. Same MO 2 decades later (and last decade. Do you remember the Yesterday Eddie trade?)

 

I totally agree with the title of this article

Twins Need to Focus on Future, Not Old Favorites

 

but to be fair, one should argue that, in addition to Guerrier and Kubel mentioned here, Deduno, Correia, Burton, Willinham, Colabello, Suzuki & Co, among others should sit or go away because they are not part of the future. (I would love it, if that happened, btw, but this is not the way this team rolls.)

[h=1][/h]

[Deduno Abides]

Not to sound flippant but those 2000s Twins must have really not cared about winning games because they rolled out some pretty awful players as starters, much less 25th roster men.

 

Sorry, don't agree. Context is important.

 

1. The 25th roster spot in many of those years went to Nick Punto, whom fans mostly didn't like, but would be grateful today to have in exchange for several players on the current roster.

 

2. It's easier to be "flippant" about the 25th roster spot when your roster includes perennial MVP candidates in their prime like Mauer and Mourneau, a perennial Cy Young candidate like Santana, one of the best closers in history in Nathan, and various other stars like Radke, Hunter, Cuddyer, Thome, and Kubel (in his prime).

 

3. In years when they rolled out weaker players as starters, their records were worse. Not a very good precedent, except the bad records at that time didn't seem so bad, as they occurred in time proximity to good years. After three years of single-digit draft picks, tolerance for roster construction mistakes should be much lower.

[gobirds]

so, we agree, they wouldn't really have a AAA CF even if Wilson was up there.

 

What we are really disagreeing about, I think, is the signficance of the mismanagement, not IF there is mismanagement.

 

I am not calling out anyone with this next part, but since so many people rip me and others for questioning the FO.....can one of the people that usually defends them come in and explain how this all makes sense to you? I promise not to be mean, if you ask, I won't even rebut your points.

I'm not a Twins fan, but this is an excellent board, so I like to waste some time here. I'm also not 100% hip to all the new stats thrown around. But aren't all of the players mentioned in this stream of threads your basic replacement level type player? Is there any difference between Fuld, Mastroianni, Wilson, Presley, Bartlett, Raley, Hermann etc.? If you lose any of these guys, can't you go pick one up for nothing?

[PseudoSABR]

Just some food for thought: Remember when a Twins Exec, I think Anthony, said that the Twins were throwing money at people, but no one wanted to play here. But the truth is that players who have played for the Twins speak glowingly and passionately about their time here. The familial sense Twins veterans feel is ubiquitous, even the supposed-spurned ones like Bartlett and Perkins. I've seen video recently where players like Hunter and Span expressed that Minnesota was home and that the Twins grew them up. When Guerrier was quoted saying "This is where I want to be." I found it touching and I was proud to be a Twins fan.

 

Part of building for the future is establishing a culture of kinship which does have more value than glitz and gold to a good deal of people. It might be an abstract pursuit, but allowing former players to return at the margins of the roster does little harm to present and future teams; and the payoff is something to be proud of and more wins by retaining stars and beckoning them to come here.

[cmathewson]

I'm not a Twins fan, but this is an excellent board, so I like to waste some time here. I'm also not 100% hip to all the new stats thrown around. But aren't all of the players mentioned in this stream of threads your basic replacement level type player? Is there any difference between Fuld, Mastroianni, Wilson, Presley, Bartlett, Raley, Hermann etc.? If you lose any of these guys, can't you go pick one up for nothing?

 

Just because.they are replacement level or below doesn't mean there's a ready supply of them on the market, at least after the free agent period.

[cmathewson]

Just some food for thought: Remember when a Twins Exec, I think Anthony, said that the Twins were throwing money at people, but no one wanted to play here. But the truth is that players who have played for the Twins speak glowingly and passionately about their time here. The familial sense Twins veterans feel is ubiquitous, even the supposed-spurned ones like Bartlett and Perkins. I've seen video recently where players like Hunter and Span expressed that Minnesota was home and that the Twins grew them up. When Guerrier was quoted saying "This is where I want to be." I found it touching and I was proud to be a Twins fan.

 

Part of building for the future is establishing a culture of kinship which does have more value than glitz and gold to a good deal of people. It might be an abstract pursuit, but allowing former players to return at the margins of the roster does little harm to present and future teams; and the payoff is something to be proud of and more wins by retaining stars and beckoning them to come here.

 

I don't buy that. The best way to create chemistry in winning. Of course you want good character guys. But the best character guys can still preside over a dour clubhouse if the team is perpetually in the tank. Winning perpetuates winning. To win, you need to develop talent, not recycle retreads. The only real value in retreads is to trade them for young talent, which has a chance to help you win down the road.

[TheLeviathan]

It's great that the Twins are a nice organization that largely treats their players respectfully.

 

It also has zero to do with bungling your 25 and 40 man rosters. If it does - it's a problem. The two aren't mutually exclusive.

[Thrylos]

.I've seen video recently where players like Hunter and Span expressed that Minnesota was home and that the Twins grew them up.

 

Talk is cheap. Actions matter. And Hunter decided as a free agent to sign with the strongest team in the Twins division recently, and seven years ago declined the Twins' offer and signed with Anaheim. Money talks, not love for the Twins, for these guys, despite what they are saying publicly in interviews.

[Otto von Ballpark]

I'm not a Twins fan, but this is an excellent board, so I like to waste some time here. I'm also not 100% hip to all the new stats thrown around. But aren't all of the players mentioned in this stream of threads your basic replacement level type player? Is there any difference between Fuld, Mastroianni, Wilson, Presley, Bartlett, Raley, Hermann etc.? If you lose any of these guys, can't you go pick one up for nothing?

 

Well, Wilson was struggling at AA, as compared to Mastro, Presley, and Fuld who have had good success at AAA and even a little in MLB. So Wilson was no immediate help to anyone, not even replacement level.

 

Also, Bartlett was expected to be the MLB backup OF having never played the position before, and having not played competitively anywhere in over a year. And keeping Bartlett was directly responsible for losing both Presley and Mastro and only replacing them with Wilson.

 

Then later Escobar was expected to play OF because the only immediately available option was apparently the nonviable Wilson, and it probably directly cost us a game in Cleveland. The catcher Herrmann was also playing OF regularly and was sub-replacement with the bat (and also almost cost us a game with his OF defense)

 

And the long-term value of this immediately useless Wilson? They just DFA'd him a few weeks later, in favor of Parmelee -- a move they could have made almost a month ago and had a viable MLB OF this whole time (albeit not a CF).

 

So they have regularly been shedding replacement level OF especially CF, and been replacing them with a sub-replacement level OF and infielders and even a catcher expected to play OF. Still fairly marginal, but frustrating to watch.

[Hosken Bombo Disco]

Exactly. And that was the same GM who dismantled the World Championship Twins. Same MO 2 decades later (and last decade. Do you remember the Yesterday Eddie trade?)

 

 

I totally agree with the title of this article

 

 

 

 

but to be fair, one should argue that, in addition to Guerrier and Kubel mentioned here, Deduno, Correia, Burton, Willinham, Colabello, Suzuki & Co, among others should sit or go away because they are not part of the future. (I would love it, if that happened, btw, but this is not the way this team rolls.)

 

 

 

 

I think you and dwintheiser are overstating the nostalgia element of the Molitor / Winfield / Steinbach signings. Those guys were still ball players. I don't recall any of the three being teammates like Kubel, Bartlett, Guerrier this year, not to mention the apparently aggressive attempts to sign Pierzynski and Garza, two guys who went elsewhere but can actually still play.

 

 

The late 90s was a different situation. Low stadium revenues but more of a willingness in those final years for developing young talent because that's the right thing to do. The 1999-2001 teams finally matured. Ryan was GM. What's happening 2012-2014 teams feels completely different to me.