Article: Twins Need to Focus on Future, Not Old Favorites

[Shane Wahl]

Who are the corner OF in AA and AAA, that could have come up the past week to help? And, if Wilson is a AAA CF, then he should be up here, not a SS or DH playing CF, right?

 

The only person worth mentioning who might ever have such a chance would be Danny Ortiz. His ceiling is very likely 4th OF, with only spot relief in CF.

[Dantes929]

I am patient and the last two years I have been ok with the Twins but now they have lost some of my trust. Some point out that we could still have Span but would you trade him for Meyer? I wouldn't. Rebuilding takes time and injuries happen but bringing up infielders when you need outfielders makes no sense and yes, Parmalee is a perfectly acceptable replacement in that situation. Losing Hicks, Arcia, Willingham and Fuld in such a short time is something no one can or should prepare for. If we had lost Puckett, Mack, Gladden and Bush all at once there would have probably been a similar vacuum. That's just for example. Take your pick of outfields and you would get the same results. It didn't bother me at all that they gave Kubel, Bartlett and Guerrier their shot. There should have been and should be no downside to it. If they earn their way onto the roster then more power to them. Where I have lost trust is that no one of them did earn their way. As a result, when they make these kind of moves in the future, moves that should be easily defendable, I am joining the skeptics and seeing them for more than face value.

[TheLeviathan]

If you let Gardy have a pet player as the 25th man, teams can get past that. It's not optimal but we've seen the Twins do it for years. Doesn't mean I like it but I guess I've been (probably too) apathetic toward that thinking, having seen it for years. When you continue to grossly mismanage down to the 20th or 21st man, you're going to get situations like we saw yesterday.

 

It's all part of the same problem - flippant use of roster space. The 25th man SHOULD have value.

 

It should red flag you that you're trying to justify one of Gardy's neurotic roster needs. You might as well be defending "We need a third catcher!" - they're equally as brainless.

[cmathewson]

Wilson has a long ways to go to the Majors.

 

As for corner outfielders, they had options. They inexplicably chose not to use them, which is my entire point.

 

I understand not wanting to use Parmelee or Ramirez. Say you add them to the 40 man. What happens when the injured guys come back to take their spots? You have to DFA them, further depleting your outfield depth. Still, why have depth if you can't use it?

 

I was actually more upset about the Mastro move than the Presley move because Mastro had an option year left. So he could be that extra guy you call up and send down as needed. Aside from Hermann, who does not belong in the majors, the Twins have a bunch of outfielders who are out of options.

 

This is where Antony is clearly to blame. He didn't need to DFA Mastro to make room on the 40 man for Fuld. He could have DFAd Bartlett and paid the extra $500K. Or he could have filed the retirement papers when Bartlett announced his retirement, instead of waiting three days. Or he could have DFAd Raley. He chose the one reserve outfielder who can play all three outfield spots and who has an option left.

[Brock Beauchamp]

It's all part of the same problem - flippant use of roster space. The 25th man SHOULD have value.

 

It should red flag you that you're trying to justify one of Gardy's neurotic roster needs. You might as well be defending "We need a third catcher!" - they're equally as brainless.

 

There's a significant difference between making a bad decision with one roster spot and making a bad decision with five roster spots. One is a mistake that can be absorbed. The other makes you want to shotgun a bottle of Jack.

 

Yesterday, the Twins had three shortstops (two of which don't belong on an MLB roster), three catchers (one of which doesn't belong on an MLB roster), and 13 pitchers (after a string of QA starts by the rotation), and one outfielder. That's not a 25th man problem, that's a "WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?" problem.

[Brock Beauchamp]

I understand not wanting to use Parmelee or Ramirez. Say you add them to the 40 man. What happens when the injured guys come back to take their spots? You have to DFA them, further depleting your outfield depth. Still, why have depth if you can't use it?

 

I understand not wanting to use Parmelee as well but this was a "all hands on deck" situation.

 

And really, should this team care if it loses Chris Herrmann at this point? There's 40 man roster space if they look at the roster objectively. Erik Fryer and Chris Herrmann. Who cares which one stays and which one goes?

 

And don't get me started on the Guerrier move.

[diehardtwinsfan]

Excellent article.

 

My 2 cents.

 

1) A bad team with one or two reclamation projects is not a bad thing. It's quite possible that Kubel gets flipped at the deadline for a C+ prospect that could turn into something decent down the road. My concern with this is that it was pretty clear that Bartlett in particular was not going to work out well. And he didn't, and it cost us Pressley. My beef here is that I think long term, Hicks would have been better served in Rochester, not in MLB stinking up the joint. Instead, we have another year where Hicks is overmatched and not ready, and I don't see how this is good for his development long term. We could have let Pressley have that shot given that he's proven he can hit AAA pitching, and if he flopped, no big deal as Hicks needs more time.

 

2) Some of this mismanagement goes back to the Pelfrey deal. I know a few people weren't exactly thrilled about it (Levi in particular if memory serves me right), as there was a chance we lost somethign good... and look what's happened. To prevent losing someone, the Twins are currently carrying a ridiculous amount of pitchers on the major league roster. If Pelfrey wasn't on the roster, Deduno would be starting right now and we'd be deciding whether or not to move him to the pen permanently, and potentially debuting Darnell, May, or Johnson.

[sorney]

There's a significant difference between making a bad decision with one roster spot and making a bad decision with five roster spots. One is a mistake that can be absorbed. The other makes you want to shotgun a bottle of Jack.

 

Yesterday, the Twins had three shortstops (two of which don't belong on an MLB roster), three catchers (one of which doesn't belong on an MLB roster), and 13 pitchers (after a string of QA starts by the rotation), and one outfielder. That's not a 25th man problem, that's a "WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?" problem.

 

 

What he said.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Some of this mismanagement goes back to the Pelfrey deal. I know a few people weren't exactly thrilled about it (Levi in particular if memory serves me right), as there was a chance we lost somethign good... and look what's happened. To prevent losing someone, the Twins are currently carrying a ridiculous amount of pitchers on the major league roster.

 

Pelfrey was a gamble that didn't pan out and again, it looks due to injury. I wasn't crazy about the Pelfrey pickup but I understood their desire for depth after the past few years. It's hard to argue that the Twins have really lost anything, as they waived Worley and Diamond in favor of Pelfrey. No loss there.

 

The problem is that they continue to pile on to that questionable move. Burton probably should have been waived in favor of a young pitcher. They not only didn't do that, they went and added Guerrier.

 

*head explodes*

[TheLeviathan]

There's a significant difference between making a bad decision with one roster spot and making a bad decision with five roster spots. One is a mistake that can be absorbed. The other makes you want to shotgun a bottle of Jack.

 

Yesterday, the Twins had three shortstops (two of which don't belong on an MLB roster), three catchers (one of which doesn't belong on an MLB roster), and 13 pitchers (after a string of QA starts by the rotation), and one outfielder. That's not a 25th man problem, that's a "WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?" problem.

 

But this is precisely what happens when you take the approach that roster spots can be flippantly tossed aside and "easily" overcome. You're welcome to have more rage and frustration with the problems compounding (it's warranted), but that doesn't excuse your erroneous defense of the 25th spot bungling either.

 

Yes, it's more egregious and frustrating that they've done this with their entire bench. It's also still egregious and frustrating when they do it with one spot. It's demonstrably poor planning - it just compounds with each spot. So let's be done with the meme of "It's ONLY the 25th spot!" because this is the kind of nonsense that ensues when you believe that.

[jokin]

There's a significant difference between making a bad decision with one roster spot and making a bad decision with five roster spots. One is a mistake that can be absorbed. The other makes you want to shotgun a bottle of Jack.

 

Yesterday, the Twins had three shortstops (two of which don't belong on an MLB roster), three catchers (one of which doesn't belong on an MLB roster), and 13 pitchers (after a string of QA starts by the rotation), and one outfielder. That's not a 25th man problem, that's a "WHAT ARE YOU THINKING?" problem.

four

Actually, they had FOUR shortstops, as Nunez was on the bench and in uniform, but didn't play. And in this instance, the 25th man problem didn't go away, it is a subset of the "What are you thinking?" problem.

[Mike Sixel]

Wilson has a long ways to go to the Majors.

 

As for corner outfielders, they had options. They inexplicably chose not to use them, which is my entire point.

 

so, we agree, they wouldn't really have a AAA CF even if Wilson was up there.

 

What we are really disagreeing about, I think, is the signficance of the mismanagement, not IF there is mismanagement.

 

I am not calling out anyone with this next part, but since so many people rip me and others for questioning the FO.....can one of the people that usually defends them come in and explain how this all makes sense to you? I promise not to be mean, if you ask, I won't even rebut your points.

[TheLeviathan]

Some of this mismanagement goes back to the Pelfrey deal. I know a few people weren't exactly thrilled about it (Levi in particular if memory serves me right),

 

I've been railing against roster construction for two months now. Yeah, it's pitching and hitting that this team did a horrific job preparing for and the chickens are coming home to roost.

 

But even I didn't imagine the team would be THIS creative in making a bad situation even worse. They took the ticking time bomb I was worried about and found a way to rig a nuke to it.

[cmathewson]

Pelfrey was a gamble that didn't pan out and again, it looks due to injury. I wasn't crazy about the Pelfrey pickup but I understood their desire for depth after the past few years. It's hard to argue that the Twins have really lost anything, as they waived Worley and Diamond in favor of Pelfrey. No loss there.

 

The problem is that they continue to pile on to that questionable move. Burton probably should have been waived in favor of a young pitcher. They not only didn't do that, they went and added Guerrier.

 

*head explodes*

 

I think both Gardy and Antony favor veterans above all else. That's why Gardy did everything he could to make both Barlett and Florimon work, because once he's trained them, he can sit back and watch. It's work to develop young guys. He hates that. Just a theory. But he has shown it over and over. Guerrier is the latest example. He could keep Tonkin and work with him. But he knows what he has with Guerrier. Same with Burton.

[kdrupp09]

It is just unfathomable that the Twins actually went into the game yesterday with the roster in the shape that it was. They had Nunez on the line-up, even though he was DRIVING there during the game.

[jokin]

it was dumb for precisely the reasons you are defending: they were flippant about who they gave that roster spot to. Every spot should be treated as having value, but the Twins ignored that and took your "bah! It's just the 25th spot! Who cares?" approach and that's why this became such an issue.

 

Ignoring the value of every 40 man and especially every 25 man spot has been a plague for this team for awhile. Situations like this shine a light on how absurd it is that the Twins act this way and equally absurd it is that some defend it.

 

It's even worse than your characterization would suggest. I believe it was Dave St Peter himself who defensively, crassly, arrogantly and soon proved to be, ignorantly, tweeted something to the effect: "I can't believe all of this angst about the 25th man (Bartlett)."

[Mike Sixel]

It is true, they seemed to be really flippant about a roster spot, as if it didn't actually matter who was on the roster. Mind. Boggling.

 

Really, between his comment that they would compete last year, and that a roster spot doesn't matter.....St. Peter should maybe skip tweeting about actual baseball stuff.

[Brock Beauchamp]

But this is precisely what happens when you take the approach that roster spots can be flippantly tossed aside and "easily" overcome. You're welcome to have more rage and frustration with the problems compounding (it's warranted), but that doesn't excuse your erroneous defense of the 25th spot bungling either.

 

Yes, it's more egregious and frustrating that they've done this with their entire bench. It's also still egregious and frustrating when they do it with one spot. It's demonstrably poor planning - it just compounds with each spot. So let's be done with the meme of "It's ONLY the 25th spot!" because this is the kind of nonsense that ensues when you believe that.

 

The two things are not the same. The same flawed thinking may be behind the decisions, but one is a mistake that can be absorbed; teams often have a junk player at the end of their bench. The other is a complete blunder that should not happen under any circumstances.

 

You're essentially equating bumping another car in a parking lot with hitting a brick wall at 60mph. Both are due to bad driving, though they're hardly the same thing.

[gocgo]

Amen brother Nick! Testify! I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of Parmalee. Yes, he has been given chances and not exactly grabbed the bull by the horns. At the same time, gettting passed over on the roster for Bartlett had to sting. He's producing at AAA. The Twins desparately need outfielders and players that can hit and are lacking a left handed bat with Mauer out. If I'm Parm and they don't bring me up now, I have to face the facts that it isn't ever going to happen.

[cmathewson]

The two things are not the same. The same flawed thinking may be behind the decisions, but one is a mistake that can be absorbed; teams often have a junk player at the end of their bench. The other is a complete blunder that should not happen under any circumstances.

 

You're essentially equating bumping another car in a parking lot with hitting a brick wall at 60mph. Both are due to bad driving, though they're hardly the same thing.

 

Good teams care about every roster spot, on the 25 man and the 40 man. Over the course of a season, a marginal player can make a big difference as a fill in. Unless you really don't care about winning actual games.

[jokin]

Good teams care about every roster spot, on the 25 man and the 40 man. Over the course of a season, a marginal player can make a big difference as a fill in. Unless you really don't care about winning actual games.

 

For starters, See: Solarte, Yangervis...Bonifacio, Ernesto...

[gocgo]

Good teams care about every roster spot, on the 25 man and the 40 man. Over the course of a season, a marginal player can make a big difference as a fill in. Unless you really don't care about winning actual games.

 

I think the key words are "Good teams". The Twins are not a good team right now. They should be in rebuilding mode, however, they seem to think they can contend and, therefore, bring up guys like Matty G. who they think can help them win now. The front office knows that the longer they appear to be in contention, the more tickets they sell. I think this move was made because of short term goals rather than keeping an eye on the long term.

 

As Nick states, on a rebuilding team, you can use that 25th spot to stash a rule 5 guy for the future or use it to develop a prospect. On a good team, that 25th spot is often used for an aging junk ball pitcher who can eat some innings in games where a team is on the wrong end of a blowout. Terry Mulholland filled that role in the glory years. On this team, bringing up Guerrier makes very little sense if the focus is on the long term.

[Brock Beauchamp]

Good teams care about every roster spot, on the 25 man and the 40 man. Over the course of a season, a marginal player can make a big difference as a fill in. Unless you really don't care about winning actual games.

 

Not to sound flippant but those 2000s Twins must have really not cared about winning games because they rolled out some pretty awful players as starters, much less 25th roster men.

 

One bad roster move is a mistake. Five bad roster moves is a catastrophe. I don't see why this is so difficult to understand. I'm not even defending the Bartlett move, it was a bad one... But ultimately, its importance is questionable because the Twins literally had a dozen chances to minimize its impact and fumbled at nearly every turn.

[jokin]

I think the key words are "Good teams". The Twins are not a good team right now. They should be in rebuilding mode, however, they seem to think they can contend and, therefore, bring up guys like Matty G. who they think can help them win now. The front office knows that the longer they appear to be in contention, the more tickets they sell. I think this move was made because of short term goals rather than keeping an eye on the long term.

 

As Nick states, on a rebuilding team, you can use that 25th spot to stash a rule 5 guy for the future or use it to develop a prospect. On a good team, that 25th spot is often used for an aging junk ball pitcher who can eat some innings in games where a team is on the wrong end of a blowout. Terry Mulholland filled that role in the glory years. On this team, bringing up Guerrier makes very little sense if the focus is on the long term.

 

Another thing about bad teams is that the 25th man, be he a Rule 5 guy or a journeyman, is probably not far away ability-wise to the 17th man, or perhaps even the 9th man in the case of teams like the Astros, Cubs or the Marlins of 2013. It's arguable that, with the relative differences in talent being so narrow in many instances, the bottom 2 or 3 guys are even more important on a bad team than on a good team.

[gocgo]

Another thing about bad teams is that the 25th man, be he a Rule 5 guy or a journeyman, is probably not far away ability-wise to the 17th man, or perhaps even the 9th man in the case of teams like the Astros, Cubs or the Marlins of 2013. It's arguable that, with the relative differences in talent being so narrow in many instances, the bottom 2 or 3 guys are even more important on a bad team than on a good team.

 

Very good point. We are at the point in the season when the nicks start to add up to injury and other teams have had a chance to scout the hitters and the pitchers. This is the point last year where the downward spiral started and here we are facing a tough part of the schedule. It's also the point where those last couple of guys on the roster start to have an impact one way or another. Unfortunately, for the Twins, those last couple of guys on the roster are being called on to fill a bigger role than what they should. Really, the last couple of guys on the roster coming out of ST were Bartlett, Colabello, and Escobar. One is gone, and the other two are being plugged in as starters. While Bartlett was a monster mistake, he wasn't a costly mistake in terms of money. Pelfrey is proving to be a costly mistake in many ways.

[DAM DC Twins Fans]

Amen brother Nick! Testify! I'm trying to put myself in the shoes of Parmalee. Yes, he has been given chances and not exactly grabbed the bull by the horns. At the same time, gettting passed over on the roster for Bartlett had to sting. He's producing at AAA. The Twins desparately need outfielders and players that can hit and are lacking a left handed bat with Mauer out. If I'm Parm and they don't bring me up now, I have to face the facts that it isn't ever going to happen.

 

First off...great article Nick!!

 

Second...why the heck isn't Parmalee on the roster and playing RF every day starting now?? (When Mauer is healthy--you can platoon Parmalee with Colobello in RF vs southpaws).

 

Third...I agree with majority of posters. What the heck is Matty G doing here and why did Twins hang on to Bartlett for so long.

 

This roster is a mess!!!! Get down to 12 pitchers.

[Brandon]

I don't really see much roster mis management here.

1. Bartlett vs Pressley....both are terrible so they went with the one with name recognition, also I bet they knew Fulds days were numbered in Oakland at this time too so if Bartlett failed which he did they had their option ready to pick.

2. Guerrier. we have 8 to 10 options who can succeed in a bullpen roll for a 7 man bullpen. which means we have depth to trade. Detroit and Anaheim Angels have bad bullpens and could come calling.

3. I can see that we probably should have sent Herman down a week ago and called up Wilkin Ramirez. that's probably the only real mistake I see.

 

At this point we are probably a starting pitcher and SS away from being a wild card contender. Meyer is coming up soon. so that one will be solved. stay tuned.....

[gocgo]

At this point we are probably a starting pitcher and SS away from being a wild card contender.

 

 

Whuuuuu? Who is our CF? For that matter, who is our outfield? Who is our leadoff hitter? Cleanup? Never mind the staff ERA of 4.67 and that is with a decent bullpen. I love the optimism, but I think we are more than a couple of players from being a wildcard contender.

[Steve Lein]

Chris Parmelee. I don't understand why he has such a bad rep as a defender. He's not flashy in the OF but he's perfectly acceptable in a corner spot and has looked much better than Arcia.

 

And you continue to underestimate how long rebuilds take. The Twins graduated two top 100 prospects in the OF just last year.

 

I love Parmelee in the OF. Obviously not flashy and doesn't have the speed for good UZR numbers and such, but was awesome playing the Target Field wall and never made a mistake, which is unlike every other one of our corner OF options.

[S.]

I don't really see much roster mis management here.

1. Bartlett vs Pressley....both are terrible so they went with the one with name recognition, also I bet they knew Fulds days were numbered in Oakland at this time too so if Bartlett failed which he did they had their option ready to pick.

This is asinine. One of them is an outfielder, one is not. You're also saying their CF contingency plan for months was assuming a specific player would be on waivers when they happened to need him? C'mon...

2. Guerrier. we have 8 to 10 options who can succeed in a bullpen roll for a 7 man bullpen. which means we have depth to trade. Detroit and Anaheim Angels have bad bullpens and could come calling.

And how does this justify calling him up?

3. I can see that we probably should have sent Herman down a week ago and called up Wilkin Ramirez. that's probably the only real mistake I see.

Having SS starting in LF/CF, having catchers playing the OF, having 1 OF on the roster, not sending down Florimon a long time ago, constantly carrying 13 pitchers, etc, etc, etc. If the only mistake you've seen on the roster is not sending Chris Herrmann down 1 week ago, then you're not watching. Sorry to be rude, but thats the fact of the matter.

 

At this point we are probably a starting pitcher and SS away from being a wild card contender. Meyer is coming up soon. so that one will be solved. stay tuned.....

If you truly believe this, show me any stats, metrics, or anything that can possibly defend this notion that just Alex Meyer and a SS somehow makes this roster a playoff contender in any way, shape, or form.